Article from the EUObserver website

gandalf

Heres a interesting article from the EU Observer

http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=7951

Now I agree with what this guy is saying but it has to be noted that he is a Nice sceptic. He in particular is very critical of the governments handling of the whole referendum.

This site by the way has a very good pdf consolidated version of the Nice Treaty explaining some of the changes been made. It also is a very good source of news relating to Europe in general.

Gandalf.

gandalf

Heres the text for the lazy people

[salt & pepper] Saturday's referendum in Ireland

JENS-PETER BONDE - "The Irish electorate are asked to vote "Yes to jobs", but there are not more - or fewer - jobs in this treaty."

My busy colleagues and I have published a consolidated version of the Nice Treaty. A job the Irish government and the legal service of the Council ought to have done a long time ago. Now, every Irishman and all other citizens of the EU can go to the bookshop and buy the consolidated Treaty or visit the net and download the full book for free.

Without a consolidated version only specialists can understand the changes, since no one can read and understand a bundle of amendments without having the Amsterdam Treaty in the other hand. It shows an unacceptable and undemocratic elitist view that people and parliaments don't need to know.

Not approved by European Parliament
Those who can read the collection of amendments are not happy with the content. For the first time the European Parliament has NOT approved a new treaty. Both federalists and EU sceptics criticize the Treaty for its lack of democracy. More decisions will be taken by civil servants, ministers and lobbyists. Fewer by elected people who can be re-elected or held accountable at the next polling day.

I have to admit that even I, after many hours reading and explaining the Treaty, have to consult it frequently, because the decision-making methods are impossible to remember. Ministers will not know the rules they apply. Even diplomats who spend their whole day using the Treaty will have to consult the Treaty often, because the new voting system is very complicated to use and impossible to describe in a complete and sufficient way.

Failure in government brochure
There are so many different ways of taking decisions that even the Irish government and the Irish Referendum Commission have not been able to convey the Treaty truthfully to the public. In brochures the government and the referendum commission explain that foreign policy decisions are taken by unanimity. That is true for "common strategies" but not true for "joint actions" and "common positions".

Enhanced cooperation can be developed in foreign policy areas against Irish interests. Eight countries representing a qualified majority can control the common institutions and establish a two-tier Europe with first and second class members.

End of Irish Commissioner
A qualified majority in Brussels can also decide who the Irish commissioner should be. This revolutionary proposal was presented on the last night of the Nice Summit. The proposal had not been discussed in a single national parliament or the European Parliament, before it suddenly was accepted.

Only days later did I become aware of this important but hidden decision, and now I cannot find it in any one of the official brochures sent to the Irish electorate. The government and their referendum commission hides one of the most important changes accompanying the Nice Treaty. From 2005 the Commission will be turned into a government where the President and his team will be appointed by others than those we elect.

Threaten the electorate
Instead of explaining and defending the content of the treaty, which the Irish will be voting on, the Irish newspapers and billboards are filled with threats and promises which have nothing to do with the Treaty. The Irish electorate are asked to vote "Yes to jobs", but there are not more - or fewer - jobs in this treaty. The existing market conditions continue for good or worse. It is not factual but solely part of the propaganda before every referendum about the EU in Europe.

When Danes voted about the Euro in 2000 they were threatened with unemployment and higher interest rates. Now two years later, the interest rate in Denmark is below the German rate and unemployment decreased as well.

Honest Prodi told the truth
The Irish are also asked to vote yes to enlargement, but enlargement is not a part of the Nice Treaty. Enlargement will be decided for 10 countries in Copenhagen in December. I have not met one minister, commissioner or civil servant who believes or supports, that enlargement will fall because of an Irish No.

President of the Commission Prodi was honest enough to tell this simple truth when he was in Ireland, but he has since been asked to participate in the orchestrated threats.

No side supports enlargement
The votes for the applicant countries and seats in Parliament etc. are NOT a part of the Nice Treaty. The numbers were also decided at the summit in Nice, but the figures are included in "declaration" no. 20 which is NOT a part of the Treaty. This offer for the applicant countries is not for the vote. It will exist whether the Irish vote yes or no. It will only be subject to a vote if Ireland has referenda about the accession treaties for the new countries.

I have understood that all major participants from the No side accept and support enlargement. So, the topics being discussed before the Irish referendum, mainly jobs and enlargement, are not a part of the Treaty they will be voting on, and the content in the Treaty they are voting about is only seldom discussed.

PH01

Seems like an anti-Europe anti-Nice publication to me.
So who are the EU Observer?

And what is their relationship with The European Foundation?

gandalf

This from their website

EUobserver.com is an independent website published in cooperation with the Group for a Europe of Democracies and Diversities in the European Parliament.

Any comments on the article PH01 or are you just going to avoid it. I personally think it raises all sorts of interesting questions.

Gandalf.

Cork

Honest Prodi told the truth
The Irish are also asked to vote yes to enlargement, but enlargement is not a part of the Nice Treaty. Enlargement will be decided for 10 countries in Copenhagen in December. I have not met one minister, commissioner or civil servant who believes or supports, that enlargement will fall because of an Irish No.

All the Yes Brigade are telling us differantly.

I think the Yes Camp lack credability.

Their views do not square with Prodi.

I think that they are engaged in 100% spin - Get this treaty passed - no metter what.

Their is nothing in this treaty for Ireland or the applicant countries.

Because of this treaty and the WTO - is there a danger that our water services will no longer remain in public ownership?

What are the odds that an Irish government will charge for water in the near future?

PH01

The article is just one sided that's all. I could go through it but what's the point?
I may as well post some 'Yes' stuff to counter balance the 'No' stuff you've just posted. But what's the point? You're not going to accept my arguements and you're not going to accept mine.
SO let agree on one thing, if we're going to post third party stuff lets make sure that it is balanced.

Cork

Honest Prodi told the truth
The Irish are also asked to vote yes to enlargement, but enlargement is not a part of the Nice Treaty. Enlargement will be decided for 10 countries in Copenhagen in December. I have not met one minister, commissioner or civil servant who believes or supports, that enlargement will fall because of an Irish No.

Surely, the Yes crowd are not anti Prodi?


Maybe - he should have kept his mouth shut.

gandalf

Personally I think its balanced.

However you claiming that people shouldn't post unbalanced comments etc is a bit rich considering the rich vein of "nazi" comments you posted on various threads in this forum (I assume you think that they were balanced).

Gandalf.

PH01

Originally posted by gandalf
Personally I think its balanced.

However you claiming that people shouldn't post unbalanced comments etc is a bit rich considering the rich vein of "nazi" comments you posted on various threads in this forum (I assume you think that they were balanced).

Gandalf.

Arra c'mon. That was from the Irish Times. Which is balanced enough publication.

dathi1

Arra c'mon. That was from the Irish Times. Which is balanced enough publication.

they should go the whole hog and just drop the word Irish (The Times)



No power downgrade for Ireland. Vote no on Saturday no2nice