Why I'm voting Yes to Nice

ButcherOfNog

I always was leaning towards a Yes vote, but after hearing all the arguments and listening to various debates on the Treaty, I've been completely convinced to vote Yes .... by the No campaign. I'm pretty sure the Treaty will be passed.

spongebob

the YES side have lied too much to deserve a win here.

Time to split the issues into separate referenda and deal with them in smaller digestible chunks, I agree with much of it by the way.

Nice in its totality is driven by a big lie, that we are holding up expansion. Burst that and the wind goes....

Pooooooooooooof

M

Typedef

Typedef wants you to vote No to Nice, voting Yes is a vote against TypeDef.

Voting No will vote against the sort of 'logic' and I use the term loosely here that ButcherOfNog is putting forward. If you are stupid enough to vote Yes for these reasons, there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise, but here is a passage I wrote on this topic and the story behind it is true.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66708

Vote No to Nice because Ireland will become further embroiled in a military alliance with Nuclear powers and Irish men and women will be sent to fight for the interests of large member States.

Vote No because the Treaty of Nice allows the EU to negotiate Comerical agreements with the likes of the World Trade Organisation, in place of Ireland and other national governments and Ireland will have No veto over this process.

Vote No because Enhanced co-operation will enunciated a structured European Union that will allow for enhanced co-operation to make an effective federated country.

Vote No because Enhanced co-operation makes tax harmonisation a burgeoning reality.

Vote No so as to make the European Union a fair place for Ireland and for the applicant countries. Those countries can still join with or without the Nice Treaty, so don't be fooled or coralled into voting for this Treaty, defeat it on it's lack of merits.

Vote No for these reasons. Don't waste your vote on a slur campaign, it's too important for Ireland and too important for our people.

Bard

Originally posted by Typedef
Typedef wants you to vote No to Nice, voting Yes is a vote against TypeDef.

ah hahahahahahahahahaha...

wonder if that gives anyone a reason to change their vote to a 'yes'

--

Personally, I don't know why, Typie, you'd assumed, as you did, that I intended to vote 'yes'. I hadn't actually revealed my intentions thus far. Unless I'm swayed between now and tomorrow (and the argument would have to be VERY convincing), I'm actually in agreement with you Typie... and I'm planning to vote 'no' - just as I did last time out.

However, it DOES look as if the treaty is going to pass this time, ... if opinion polls are to be believed...

Typedef

I know alot of people are saying the Treaty will pass this time and most of those people are like yourself Bard, stated No voters.

Most people I know are voting No, so I hope somehow we win. I remember the opinion polls said that the Yes side had the last Referendum and those polls were proved wrong, so is there some way the No vote can prevail on Saturday?

I hope so.

Bod.

Vokes

Vote No to Nice because Ireland will become further embroiled in a military alliance with Nuclear powers and Irish men and women will be sent to fight for the interests of large member States.

im confused, i thought this proposed European army was merely for peacekeeping purposes, what do you mean by 'military alliance'?

Typedef

The Rapid Reaction Force can be used for 'combat in crisis management situations' that is exactly what the Nice Treaty spells out.

Who do you think is going to make the call on what a crisis situation is or which situations deserve to have troops from the Rapid Reaction Force 'do combat'?

Not Ireland, that much is a given.

From the Nice Treaty.

Arcile 2

2. Questions referred to in this Article shall include humanitarian and rescue tasks, peacekeeping
tasks and tasks of combat forces in crisis management, including peacemaking.

Note combat forces are what the Rapid Reaction Force will be and what's more Ireland is part of the Rapid Reaction Force with or without a constitutional ammendment to Neutrality, but without the Nice Treaty the Rapid Reaction Force has no mandate, no set of rules to act under and thus can't be used.

seamus

Typedef wants you to vote No to Nice, voting Yes is a vote against TypeDef.

ROFL.....plyd

Vote No to Nice because Ireland will become further embroiled in a military alliance with Nuclear powers and Irish men and women will be sent to fight for the interests of large member States.

Typedef, there is going to be an addition to the constitution that prevents Ireland from participating in an EU Common Defence. Now this isn't to say that Irish men and women can't fight for Europe, let them, that's their choice.....but it does prevent the Government from drafting people to fight for Europe. It will only be able to draft to defend Ireland. Now granted, it could be said that 'defending Europe is defending Ireland', but I don't think any government would risk themselves on shaky ground like that......

Originally posted by Typedef
Most people I know are voting No, so I hope somehow we win.

If you asked me in person, I'd say I was going to vote No, just to spare myself the earful

Regarding the Rapid reaction force the E.U on the whole want to have it, regardless of the Nice Treaty.
That rrf will be armed most likely.
Indeed I've seen our army protecting Securicor vans with Guns and they weren't toy ones:eek:
But to say that we will "become further embroiled in a military alliance with Nuclear powers and Irish men and women will be sent to fight for the interests of large member States." is misleading if not total scaremongering.
mm

Bard

Originally posted by Man
Indeed I've seen our army protecting Securicor vans with Guns and they weren't toy ones:eek:

[off topic]

I used to work in a security company myself.

The army escorted any vans of ours that went outside of radio contact - e.g.: vans going from Dublin to Limerick to collect weekly till takings from, say, A-Wear.

At Christmas we made quite substantial cash drops back to one of the banks central secure installations (tens of millions of pounds). This went in a single security van, escorted by two army personnel carriers - each carrying 5 or 6 soldiers armed with fairly serious weaponry, two squad cars with 3 or 4 armed gardaí in each and 4 motorcycle gardaí who went ahead to clear the traffic.

[/off topic]

Typedef

Typedef, there is going to be an addition to the constitution that prevents Ireland from participating in an EU Common Defence.

That addition will not prevent Ireland participating in the Rapid Reaction Force, but rather in a proposed European defence infrastructure.

The proposed amendment, if approved by the people, will also have the effect of preventing the State from adopting a decision taken by the European Council on the establishment of a common defence in accordance with Article 17.1 of the Treaty on European Union, (as set out in Article 1.2 of the Treaty of Nice), where that common defence would include the State. The insertion of this provision in the Constitution, which involves a significant change from the last Nice referendum, guarantees that Ireland could not participate in such a common defence without further amendment to the Constitution. That amendment could only be made if the Irish people vote in favour of it at a future referendum.



This gives constitutional effect to the solemn commitment in the National Declaration by Ireland at Seville that a referendum would be held in Ireland on the adoption of decision taken by the EU to move to a common defence. This commitment has been the position of successive Irish Governments.



The Seville Declarations clarified that there was nothing in the Treaty of Nice or previous Treaties that posed a threat to Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality. In the proposed amendment to the Constitution published today, the Government is putting it beyond doubt that any future involvement by Ireland in a common defence would be for the people to decide in a referendum.

http://www.gov.ie/iveagh/nice/st1.htm

Right now I will bold the pertinent passages here

2. Article 17 shall be replaced by the following:
ëArticle 17
1. The common foreign and security policy shall include all questions relating to the security of
the Union, including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a
common defence, should the European Council so decide. It shall in that case recommend to the
Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional
requirements.
The policy of the Union in accordance with this Article shall not prejudice the specific character of
the security and defence policy of certain Member States and shall respect the obligations of certain
Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
(NATO), under the North Atlantic Treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence
policy established within that framework.
The progressive framing of a common defence policy will be supported, as Member States consider
appropriate, by cooperation between them in the field of armaments.
2. Questions referred to in this Article shall include humanitarian and rescue tasks, peacekeeping
tasks and tasks of combat forces in crisis management, including peacemaking.

Now since the Rapid Reaction Force already exists and Ireland already participates in that Force this article does not hinder the action of that force, nor Ireland's involvement in it since the common defence policy doesn't in fact exist yet! What's more the leader of Fine Gael has told me to my face that on ratification this State would contribute at least six hundred troops to the Rapid Reaction Force, but without ratification of the Treaty of Nice that force will have no mandate, not set of rules and cannot operate.

True the constitutional addition will keep Ireland out of a 'planned' defence as I have emboldend, but will not stop participation in the Rapid Reaction Force, in my view only a No vote can do so at this stage of the game.

ButcherOfNog

TypeDef, you are wrong, ok?

Typedef

Well there is a well thought out and logically put argument hmm?

But surely the definition of "common defence" constitutionally is open to question.
Short of agressively declaring war on another country, arguably, everything the RRF would do would be a "common defence"

Now the question is can Ireland as it stands go to War?
What are the legal requirements for such an action?

Dáil approval?? perhaps it would have to be something very serious for that to happen or else the constituency phones of every T.D in the country would be ringing loudly.
mm

Typedef

From what I can tell Article 2.1 talks about a proposed common defence policy, which is what the constitutional addition in question is trying to deal with.

While Article 2.2 gives a mandate to the already existing Rapid Reaction Force, a body Ireland will commit troops to if the Leader of Fine Gael is to be believed on the event of ratification of the Nice Treaty.

In this context Articles 2.1 and 2.2 have quite distinct and different impacts.

Thus voting Yes will not prevent Article 2.2 from affecting Ireland, only rejecting the Treaty of Nice again by voting No can achieve that.

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by Typedef
Well there is a well thought out and logically put argument hmm?

Why should I bother having an argument over a plain and simple fact? You are wrong, its not your fault, you're just repeating the Green Party line, over and over again, try thinking for yourself and stop believeing everything you're told.

Typedef

Sorry hate to burst your bubble, but I didn't get this from the Green Party. Perhaps you'd like this thread to degenerate into a flame war so you wouldn't have to deal with the issue.

However if you can prove the Green Party has used the text I have just used to prove the point I have just proved Bon go right ahead, that is the allegation you have just made and I hereby challenge you to back it up as is the netiquette on politics. I can tell you I came up with this argument on my own and I don't care whether you believe that or not and just sitting there and saying "No sorry you're wrong" is a really stupid rebuff.

Obviously you think I'm right, because you haven't even attempted to rebuff my argument, perhaps if you sit back long enough someone else will do that for you.

bobbyjoe

There's only one way to vote in this referendum and thats a Yes

Time to get rid of all the bull and scaremongering.
Look at the bigger picture.

Neutrality will be safer than ever before anything else is a lie.

Time to look beyond the end of our noses.
Ireland can do something good for all of europe.

The people of eastern Europe have suffered under communism for decades. Its time to let them in. Give them the chance to benefit from Europe. At least give them the option to joinif they want.

Ireland had benfited substantialy every time Europe has expanded.

logic1

I wasn't going to vote at all but Typedefs continual rhetoric has convinced me I must vote Yes at all costs. Most of my friends started as No's but have *all* moved to Yes'.

.logic.

Typedef

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
There's only one way to vote in this referendum and thats a Yes

Time to get rid of all the bull and scaremongering.
Look at the bigger picture.

Neutrality will be safer than ever before anything else is a lie.

Time to look beyond the end of our noses.
Ireland can do something good for all of europe.

The people of eastern Europe have suffered under communism for decades. Its time to let them in. Give them the chance to benefit from Europe. At least give them the option to joinif they want.

Ireland had benfited substantialy every time Europe has expanded.

Quote from the Treaty text please if you are going to call my arguments lies, and me a liar in the process, the very least you can do is to quote from the Treaty text to attempt to support your argument.

gandalf

Originally posted by bobbyjoe
The people of eastern Europe have suffered under communism for decades. Its time to let them in. Give them the chance to benefit from Europe. At least give them the option to joinif they want.

Again they can join no matter what way we vote. A defeat for the Nice Treaty will not effect enlargement dramitically and by 2005 there will be another treaty in place.

Please stop with the emotional scaremongering.

"A No vote in Ireland will not prevent enlargement… It will not be too bad. The closure of negotiations will apparently be delayed a little – in this case you can trust the member states. Plan B is always in the drawer". - Christine Kirschbaum, staff member of Enlargement Commissioners Günter Verheugen at a conference on EU enlargement in Hamburg

"Legally, ratification of the Nice Treaty is not necessary for enlargement. It's without any problem up to 20 members, and those beyond 20 members have only to put in the accession agreement some notes of change, some clause. But legally, it's not necessary from this specific point of view, enlargement is possible without Nice." - Roman Prodi soon after the first rejection of the Nice Treaty by Ireland.

"The solution will not be to ignore the vote, but to handle the situation. Probably it requires taking what is needed from the Nice Treaty necessary to carry through the enlargement," - Valery Giscard d'Estaing President of the Convention on the Future of Europe in Denmark July 2002.

Gandalf.

ButcherOfNog

/me sits back n waits

seriously tho, as i said, i've listened/read all the arguments, for and against and its pretty clear that the No campaign is seriously flawed, its not a black and white treaty yet most of the No campaigners have tried to make it seem like it is, 'we will all lose our jobs', 'we'll end up in a war', 'we'll end up spending money on arms and not on our hospitals'. The Greens have even suggested that we'll (Europe) end up at war with the USA and we'll be building up an army to rival them ... like hello? Note the way I refer to Europe as 'we'.

I'm not getting into a long drawn out argument with someone that would never admit to being wrong. its pointless. i started this thread to say 'why' i'm voting yes, its not about you.

As for my sig, thats poking fun at your sig, ok?

*poke*

Xterminator

Originally posted by Typedef
From what I can tell Article 2.1 talks about a proposed common defence policy, which is what the constitutional addition in question is trying to deal with.

While Article 2.2 gives a mandate to the already existing Rapid Reaction Force, a body Ireland will commit troops to if the Leader of Fine Gael is to be believed on the event of ratification of the Nice Treaty.

In this context Articles 2.1 and 2.2 have quite distinct and different impacts.

Thus voting Yes will not prevent Article 2.2 from affecting Ireland, only rejecting the Treaty of Nice again by voting No can achieve that.

You are factually incorrect.

The rapid reaction force, which Ireland has already commited to, will go ahead with or without Nice.
It does not require a refendum to alow us to join it.

Thus the Rapid Reaction Force argument is a red herring thrown out by the no camp, to stir histeria and fear.

In fact nice will guarentee a referendum before we ditch our neutraility. If nice is rejected, the government of the day can ditch our nutraility without a plebisite!
(I noted you omitted this fact ffrom your statement).

thus a vote for nice IS a vote for neutrailty.

X

Typedef

Originally posted by Xterminator
You are factually incorrect.

The rapid reaction force, which Ireland has already commited to, will go ahead with or without Nice.
It does not require a refendum to alow us to join it.

Thus the Rapid Reaction Force argument is a red herring thrown out by the no camp, to stir histeria and fear.

I knew when I saw you had replied to the thread that you'd have said something like that.

No in fact I have to differ with you, in that Nice does not affect the Rapid Reaction Force as clearly Article 2.2 of the Nice Treaty does affect the Rapid Reaction Force (if the Treaty is accepted on the second sitting) and the constitutional barrier the governmnet are attempting to get passed only effects Article 2.1.

Call that histeria if it makes you feel easy about voting Yes, to my mind I do not want the Rapid Reaction Force given a mandate to do combat with Irish troops and I will vote No to the Nice Treaty for this amongst other reasons.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
No in fact I have to differ with you, in that Nice does not affect the Rapid Reaction Force as clearly Article 2.2 of the Nice Treaty does affect the Rapid Reaction Force (if the Treaty is accepted on the second sitting) and the constitutional barrier the governmnet are attempting to get passed only effects Article 2.1.

Article 2.2 of Nice does amend article 17 of the Treaty on European Union, that's true. But it only deletes obsolete references to the Western European Union. It doesn't affect the RRF in any other way. Feel free to compare the old version to the amended version -- there are no changes that will affect the operation of the RRF.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by Typedef
Typedef wants you to vote No to Nice, voting Yes is a vote against TypeDef.

Well that's me convinced - the chance to annoy Typedef and Justin Barrett at once - it has to be Yes!!

Typedef

Hehe, good one.

bobbyjoe

Re: Neutrality

Quote from the Treaty text please if you are going to call my arguments lies, and me a liar in the process, the very least you can do is to quote from the Treaty text to attempt to support your argument

Sorry didn't mean it that way


Twenty-sixth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2002 (Treaty of Nice) proposes in insert after subsection 6 of section 4 of article 29


9° The State shall not adopt a decision taken by the European Council to establish a common defence pursuant to Article 1.2 of the Treaty referred to in subsection 7° of this section where that common defence would include the State

Seems pretty clear to me!

If some force intends coming over here and forcing us all into some army I don't think voting yes or no will stop it.


http://www.referendum.ie/general/details.asp?general_information_id=18

Bard

I'll be glad when tomorrow has come and gone and this referendum and all the spurious debates about it are in the past.

Typedef

I hope that somehow we win.

Maybe if I pray?