John Bruton's EU state constitution

dathi1

IRELAND'S JOHN BRUTON DISCUSSED THE STRUCTURE/ARCHITECTURE OF A EUROPEAN
UNION STATE CONSTITUTION IN BRUSSELS YESTERDAY. . . HE SHOULD PUBLISH IT
TO INFORM THE IRISH BEFORE TOMORROW'S REFERENDUM!


John Bruton T.D., his 12 fellow Vice-presidents of the Convention on the
Future of Europe, and Convention President Giscard d'Estaing met yesterday
in Brussels to discuss a 10-page document that sets out the structure and
architecture of a draft EU State Constitution.

A document based on this will be presented to the full Convention shortly.

John Bruton should release this document to the Irish people so that they
have some idea what is going to follow the Nice Treaty, before they vote on
Saturday.

The 10-page document discussed yesterday by the Convention Praesidum
outlines 20 chapters of a draft Union State Constitution that will emerge
from the Convention on the Future of Europe over the coming months.

It envisages conferring legal personality on the European Union, as against
the European Community, comparable to the legal personality now possessed
by the individual Member States.

The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is given political approval in
Declaration 23 attached to the Treaty of Nice, is at the centre of this
envisaged Draft Constitution. It is intended that Charter, when
incorporated in the Union Constitution, will give an extensive human
rights competence to the EU Court of Justice, making that body superior to
national Constitutions and Supreme Courts, and the Court of Human Rights
in Strasbourg, so far as large areas of human rights are concerned.

The Praesidium document also envisages a chapter on EU defence and
military matters in the Union State Constitution.

The Permanent Forum on Civil Society, which is attached to Giscard
d'Estaing's Convention, called for the abolition of the unanimity rule for
adopting the Union State Constitution, Agence Europe news agency said
yesterday. The Forum called also for an EU Government.

This shows the way the wind is blowing as regards this Constitution.

Abolition of unanimity for adopting the Constitution is made possible by
the Nice Treaty's "enhanced cooperation" provisions. These open the way to
the Constitution being adopted for an inner group of EU States, if some
States chose to reject it, while others remain outside its provisions in a
two-class two-tier two-speed Union.

_____________

(Agence Europe report)

AN EU CONSTITUTION SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE ADOPTED EVEN WITHOUT UNANIMITY,
SAYS EU CONVENTION GROUP . . . An example of the application of "enhanced
coperation" á la Nice. CALL FOR AN EU GOVERNMENT.


Agence Europe News agency reports yesterday that The Permanent Forum of
Civil Society approved a contribution to the European Convention last
Tuesday stating that, if there is no unanimity on the European
Constitution, "Governments of countries that part of the majority must
negotiate new relationships with Member states having decided to stay
apart."

According to the Civil Society Forum, the new EU institutional system must
be based on:

- the "constitutive, legislative and budgetary powers" of the European
Parliament and Council, respectively deciding through an absolute and
qualified majority;

- "a Union government with the power of initiative, execution and
representation of the Union in external relations (The Commission);

- the election of this Government's President, which should "create the
opportunity for a debate on the "common good; citizens should at the same
time elect MEPs and the "Government President, presented by a coalition of
European political parties";

- The European Council, "with, notably, the task of expressing itself on
the Union's major political guidelines"; - a "system uniting in a single
body and on an equal footing national and European parliamentarians, to
adopt, "through a double qualified majority, Accession Treaties,
constitutional reviews and any increase in Community revenue."

Meh

Abolition of unanimity for adopting the Constitution is made possible by the Nice Treaty's "enhanced cooperation" provisions. These open the way to the Constitution being adopted for an inner group of EU States, if some States chose to reject it, while others remain outside its provisions in a two-class two-tier two-speed Union.

So what's the problem here? If we don't like the new constitution, we don't have to join it. Staying out of an EU constitution won't affect our right to take part in other areas of enhanced cooperation -- the Nice Treaty guarantees that all areas of enhanced cooperation will be open to all members who wish to join.

Typedef

Originally posted by Meh
So what's the problem here? If we don't like the new constitution, we don't have to join it.

Oh really Meh, and how many times would the constitution of the European Union have to be rejected by Ireland before the decision was respected? How many times would it have to be accepted to pass, just the once, or do you think that perhaps the choice you have claimed Ireland has only exists in the propaganda texts?

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
Oh really Meh, and how many times would the constitution of the European Union have to be rejected by Ireland before the decision was respected?

Well, if you put your energies into campaigning for a legal change to prevent this re-run situation from ever rearing its ugly head again, rather than just using it as a convenient argument against anything to do with the EU, I would be willing to say "once".

I would also point out to Dathi1 how rudiculous he is being.

We have a doc which sets out a possible path, which is for discussion. Somehow, this doc is relevant to the Nice treaty. By implication, if the meeting's findings were that the document was completely unworkable, unrealistic, and would never be feasible, it somehow is still relevant to the Nice Treaty?

Or were you somehow suggesting that the findings of yesterdays meeting should somehow be agreed, signed off by all participants, and distributed to the nation of Ireland before tomorrow ????

No-one has ever denied that the EU is moving towards closer union. No-one on the Yes side has ever suggested that saying Yes to Nice buys us into each and every step further down the line.

This consititutional proposal couldnt be less relevant to Nice. It is speculative in nature (hence being "for discussion"), is not covered by Nice in any way and could not be applied to our nation without the consent of the people.

In short - more irrelevant side-issue twaddle.

Next.

jc

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Oh really Meh, and how many times would the constitution of the European Union have to be rejected by Ireland before the decision was respected? How many times would it have to be accepted to pass, just the once, or do you think that perhaps the choice you have claimed Ireland has only exists in the propaganda texts?

There is no way Ireland can sign up for an EU constitution without the people voting for it in a referendum. Just like Ireland can't sign up for the Nice Treaty without the people voting for it in a referendum. That's where the choice is.

If we don't like the referendums the government proposes to us, then perhaps we should elect a different government.

Typedef

Both of you have essentially said the same thing that sounds reasonable on the face of it. However there is no point in rejecting a Referenda on the European Union if everytime the people do so the government simply decides to tell the people that answer is not acceptable and return the issue in question to plebiscite.

Thus what is taking place is a perversion of the Referenda process. If one Referendum can be re-run by the government, because the results of the last one do not suit the government, then all Referenda should be subject to the same arbitrary re-running at the discression of the loosing side, otherwise the process of Referenda is nothing more then a theatrical exercise to maintain the facade of democracy. As long as the government reserves the right to re-run Referenda that it looses and outspend the other side on election campaign re-run Ireland's democracy will be nothing more then a cursory show in which the governmet effectively dictates policy via it's superior spending mechanism to reverse decisions that don't suit it, while denying the opportunity for non-governmental lobby groups to re-run plebiscites that don't suit those groups.

Is this what fair and balanced democracy is in Ireland? Because to me it smacks of Authoritarian government effectively issuing dictats, but, dictats with a carnival element of show democracy involved.

In fact this entire re-run fiasco has stripped me of any confidence I ever had in the purity of Irish democracy, it has been exposed as a means to an end for the elites in Ireland. Democracy is a fallacy in this country, government policy is the reality and 'democracy' is simply a means to an end for the government and main political parties, it is not balanced and is discressionary for the government.

Finally I have made this point clearly, democracy in Ireland is discressionary for the government, the re-run of the Treaty is the proof of this. In the event of a win for the government it is at the government's discression to accept or reject that decision.
To my mind democracy is not supposed to be circular like this, but rather linear with clear consequences resulting from plebiscite, not theatre and discressionary democracy to satisfy the desires of the political elite.

You know Karl Marx once said "Religion is the opium of the masses", however in the modern sense, I believe that the delusion that democracy brings freedom and control to citizens is in the context of Ireland, just that, namely a delusion, this notion that Ireland has a choice in European Integration is again and opiad by which Ireland is ceding it's soveringty under democratic coercion at the behest of European Federalists. Call me a raving looney if it makes it easy for you to ignore that comment, I believe it to be true, but if you can prove me wrong, by re-running a plebiscite the government wins, feel free to do so.

Regards Typedef.

daveirl

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