Leap may soon be legal......and IB too.

spongebob

see the last lines Here .... if you hate MS Word it sez

The Regulator has noted that a new scheme to allow for local area FWA licensing on a first come first served basis is currently being devised. This scheme will be open to all operators requiring spectrum for wireless broadband services

M

Moriarty

Leap & IB are 100% legal at the moment.. all the above means is new monopolys are going to be introduced in high-density areas.

yellum

This is for licensed spectrum, they are legal right now anyway but have to use shared spectrum.

BigEejit

Is the 5GHz band used by 802.11a licenced or unlicensed?, and if it is unlicensed why is nobody considering it/ actually rolling it out?

I know its a bit more expensive, but it has better properties AFAIK...

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
Is the 5GHz band used by 802.11a licenced or unlicensed?, and if it is unlicensed why is nobody considering it/ actually rolling it out?

I know its a bit more expensive, but it has better properties AFAIK...

802.11a tends to use the lower portion of the band around 5.2GHz. This portion is unlicenced but subject to power restrictions. IrishBroadband are considering using it, according to their website.

yellum

Originally posted by BigEejit
Is the 5GHz band used by 802.11a licenced or unlicensed?, and if it is unlicensed why is nobody considering it/ actually rolling it out?

I know its a bit more expensive, but it has better properties AFAIK...

Its higher bandwidth shorter distance and there doesn't seem to be a lot of equipment out here yet to connect it to external antennae

spongebob

is licenced for NON COMMERCIAL use within power limits

as soon as you charge for 802.11 (pick a letter ) it becomes illegal....not that that matters IMO .

802.11 runs in around 2.4Ghz and 5-5.5Ghz depending on the letter at the end. The ODTR is considering allowing higher power outputs around 5.8Ghz according to one of their docs 0249

802.11 a data version of Citizens band radio or the Baby Alarm frequency around 45Mhz

The frequencies available for commercial wireless are in chunks around 5.8 Hhz 10Ghz or 25Ghz.

Interesting times, I favour licencing those already providing a service first, the vapour merchants can take their place down the queue.

The regulator did flag some of this 4 months ago in doc 0249 excerpt below.

You will note that 3 wavelegths are licenced (or being relicenced) for FWA , regulator speak for wireless other than POTS substitutes which are WLL

This was the roadmap a few months back, no mention of 2.4 or anything between 5 and 5.8 because she cannot and will not licence them.......

5.1 The 26 GHz Frequency Band
The Director intends to discuss options for rationalisation of the existing licensed FWA spectrum with the licensed operators, with a view to accommodating projected levels of FWA traffic on those operators’ networks in the most effective manner. She will also develop a licensing regime for point-to-multipoint and multipoint-to-multipoint applications in the 26 GHz band.
5.2 The 10.5 GHz Frequency Band
The Director intends to develop regulations under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts 1926 – 1988 to introduce a licensing regime for local area FWA systems operating in the 10.5 GHz band. This regime will include the following main technical elements:
· Services will generally be licensed on the basis of individual base stations;
· It is anticipated that individual FWA base stations will be subject to a pre-defined limit on exported interference, in the form of a maximum field strength at specified radial distance from the base station. Alternative network topologies, such as mesh networks, may also be licensed and will be subject to the same limits on exported interference at a pre-defined radius from a central point as would apply to a point to multipoint base station located at that point.
· Spectrum will be assigned in multiples of 2 x 3.5 MHz up to a maximum of 2 x 28 MHz, in accordance with Figure 4.1 above;
· Sufficient spectrum will be made available to accommodate up to three 2 x 28 MHz spectrum blocks in any geographic area;
· Applicants will be permitted to apply for licences at different locations, which will be licensed in the same block of radio spectrum where this is available locally.
· Licensees will be required to demonstrate annually that each licensed system is in use for the delivery of FWA services prior to licence renewal in order for the licence to be renewed.
For the avoidance of doubt, licensees intending to offer FWA services, will be required to possess the appropriate Telecommunications service licence (either Basic or General) details of which can be obtained from the ODTR website, www.odtr.ie.


M

dahamsta

as soon as you charge for 802.11 (pick a letter ) it becomes illegal

Profit, not charge. CorkWAN couldn't exist otherwise.

adam

spongebob

commercial surely implies a profit motive.

co-operative self provisioning (the Irishwan model) where any 'surplus' belongs to the co-operative is not commercial activity because the surplus remains within the co-operative.

.....as in credit unions and the dairy co-ops once upon a time

M

dahamsta

What's picky Muck? The sentence I quoted was wholly incorrect.

adam

spongebob

as things now stand. The legal position is explained better by the UK Radio Authority Here . Both the UK and Irish regulators in turn enforce European rulings set by Cept and translated into technical equipment standards by ETSI . The ODTR is relaying these standards to Ireland and not setting them unilaterally.

Once you charge you need a licence, once you get a licence you will be allocated spectrum out of the licence exempt bands which are not the 802.11 bands.

The enfocement is lax, thankfully the spectrum in question is hardly cluttered and in need of cleaning up in Ireland.

Of course, a company can charge for a port and then insist on hauling it out by wireless for free, non?

wouldn't even take a good accountant

M

yellum

So are you saying Leap and Irish Broadband are illegal then ?

spongebob

Grey all over.

M

quozl

i'm pretty sure that's just misinformation. Leap and IBB are of course legal. You can use the unlicensed spectrum for anything you want, thats the point. Be it commercial or not. However leap and IBB require (and I assume have) a basic teleco license.
Greg

spongebob

I am unable to find anything in the basic licencing section of the ODTR site, except for the 'B' mob. As numbering and interconnects are not required for data only wireless then a basic licence would be sufficient.

The UK Radio authority clarified the purpose of the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bands allocated for 802.11 technologies. Their explanation is clearer than anything I can find on the ODTR website and applies equally well in this country as it merely applies the same CEPT rules that all European countries follow.

Current use of the 2.4GHz band
The popularity of the band is at least in part due to its licence exempt status. However there exists a widespread misunderstanding as to what this means in practice. The ISM band is often referred to by potential users as being an unlicensed band or a ‘non-regulated’ band, neither of which is technically correct. In reality the band is ‘licence exempt’ for a specified class of applications, that is to say there exist a pre-defined set of applications which are exempt from the conditions applying under Section 1 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act. All other applications are subject to the conditions of the WT Act and so must be licensed.
Furthermore, irrespective of whether the application is licence exempt or not, any user operating in the band must conform to the requirements of the new R&TTE Directive. This mandates that manufacturers self-declare that equipment is conformant with the appropriate standard(s), for example ETS 300 328 for R-LAN and similar applications, and ETS 300 440 for short range indoor data links or otherwise demonstrate that it avoids harmful interference in accordance with Article 2 of the Directive. The R&TTE Directive also encompasses the older EMC certification process, to which radio transmitters were previously subject. Equipment now has a single, simplified process of conformance.
The exemption operating in the band is applicable only to defined application groups, and to defined uses. Exemption does not, for example, include provision of a public telecommunication service or third party service. Such provision requires both a WT Act licence, and, a Telecommunications Act (T Act) licence. As will be seen in a later chapter, the distinction between private and public networks is becoming a key issue with regard to how the band may be used in the future. It may also have ramifications for the use of other parts of the spectrum.
In short, although licence exempt applications are not required to pay a licence fee, leading to the view that the spectrum is ‘free’ (if the cost of self-certification is excluded) both licensed and licence-exempt users are required to adhere to the regulations that affect the band.

Public provision of Fixed Wireless Access WT Act / T Act
Wireless Networking: Radio LANs Exempt

Perhaps you could clarify your undersatnding of the situation Quozl ?

M

rardagh

Hi,

Just for a quick point of clarity.

Leap Broadband is a trading name of European Access Providers Limited a company licensed by the ODTR for the provision of Basic Telecommunications Services in Ireland.

Leap Broadband has approval from the ODTR for the provision of telecommunications service using frequency pursuant to inter alia "Permitted Short Range Devices in Ireland", Document 02/71. UK WT and T acts don't apply in Ireland.

IrelandOffline is a great forum, and it is easy to understand, in the heat of debate, that complex telecoms laws and regulations may be misunderstood and misrepresented.

We are delighted to continue to roll-out a very legitimate wireless Broadband network, and encourage all you good folk not just to log on....but LEAP on.

Best regards,

Rory

spongebob

I did see

02/71 is the relevant Irish document but states (it is very a very short Document )on page one that it is a transposition of a European law. It also alludes to a WT act Rory, the 1926 one.

The applicable European Law law has 'derogations' or 'positions' for some EU states in respect of certain bandwidths as the ODTR points out in 02/71 and these are in Appendix 3 of the European doc.

In Appendix 3 I cannot see any significant difference between the
Irish and the British positions on licencing or otherwise of the 802.11 bands save that the Irish have insisted on not allowing outdoor use of 802.11a (page 20 of PDF linked above) while the UK insist on licencing 3rd party traffic as they put it. I am damned if I can see the difference that has led the UK to conclude otherwise. Their insistence on licencing will have the effect of there being no licence issued.

I also note the amusing restriction the ODTR have brought in to prevent model submarines from being used by the Irish public ....page 26 of the PDF not least by splitting off model aircraft and model cars from each other while omitting submarines. Shame.

She also forgot to include the Avalanche detector that is detailed on page 35 of the European regulations in her 0271 document.
That is a tragedy if you are a Donegal sheep.

M

rardagh

Muck,

Shame about the submarines!!

There is an Irish Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1926. Although of the same name it is not the same as the UK Wireless Telegraphy Act.

In the context of Europe - Now that NICE has been won!! Ireland maintains a sovereign right to manage it's wireless affairs. Arising from the European acquis there is an understanding, outlined in Irish legislation that the regulator must look, amongst other issues, to make decisions in the context of promoting the internal market. However, the minister (who reigns supreme in all things wireless, except for implementation) and the nation retains sovereign rights and has the right to proceed in the best interests of Ireland in the management of it's own wireless affairs.

The recommendation you refer to has some moral force, but as you also mention, there is many a country that has given the two fingers to European Recommendations as they try and promote the information society in their respective countries. I suppose this goes back to the principle of subsidiarity, in that a decision is best taken by those most directly affected by it's outcome, in so far as practicable. In Ireland's case I believe the ODTR have, with the consent of the minister, and in some regards, made such a decision, and I believe it was a good first step but left a lot more to be done!!

I hope that the development of further FWA licenses will be one of the issues the committee will raise with the minister when they meet with him on the 30th. Licensed FWA can bring broadband even to those areas of Ireland where the sheep of Donegal may be prone to being rescued from avalanches!!

Best, Rory

spongebob

You said

In the context of Europe - Now that NICE has been won!! Ireland maintains a sovereign right to manage it's wireless affairs. Arising from the European acquis there is an understanding, outlined in Irish legislation that the regulator must look, amongst other issues, to make decisions in the context of promoting the internal market. However, the minister (who reigns supreme in all things wireless, except for implementation) and the nation retains sovereign rights and has the right to proceed in the best interests of Ireland in the management of it's own wireless affairs.

I disagree, the regulator may talk a good sovereign tack but she then locks us up further by implementing ETSI standards which usually lock output at low common denominator.

We are normally double locked..standards wise.. by CEPT and ETSI except in the 5.8Ghz band where I may see vaguely subversive activity in the offing...or Mesh wireless perhaps. She may indeed have the subsidiarity you describe above vested in her but rarely shows signs of deciding according to subsidiarity ....opting to follow the collective instead.

Fair play to her makin a schtand on the remote control toys all the same though. Mighty woman.

Apart from gettin the whole of UU-Rope to agree on the model subs what else has she reserved of consequence........


M

LizZard

The response to the Muck’s posting at 12:43 is that you may use 802.11 freely for personal use. To use it commercially you require a license from the ODTR for the commercial activity – as a minimum a Basic Telecommunications License is required -, although the spectrum is still FOC. To use licensed spectrum you require a license for the spectrum plus you require a license for the commercial activity.



In applying for the license Irish Broadband had to provide ODTR with full detail of the type of equipment it intended using, the network topology, a copy of the contract to be used etc. The process took nearly 3 months instead of the expected 4 months, because it was a license to operate in the unlicensed spectrum area.

spongebob

The ODTR is less than comprehensive in its list of FWA licencees or any kind of WA for that matter. Formus was there until recently for example. The listing is Here and contains both Leap (EAP) and IB (NTR) but not as FWA licencees.

Once the operator/icencee reconciliation is complete there is no mention anywhere on the ODTR site of commercial licencing in the 802.11 spectra.......It would have to be 802.11b as the ODTR has explicitly stated that 802.11a is not to go outdoors here.

As regards a Basic Licence, come on lads.....ye'd get that for prepaid scratch cards but I do accept you are licenced.

M

yellum

Surely, its the job of the ODTR to stop commerical wireless operators using unlicenced spectrum if its illegal. Leap have gone to the ODTR, shown them what they are doing, have received a basic telco licence from them and were allowed to operate. Same goes for IB

My interpretation of the unlicenced spectrum rules is that it is a free for all. Anyone can use the spectrum once they stay within the legal limits. Anyone means commercial and non-commercial entities.

Commercial entities just need a telco licence like they would with offering any other telco service.

quozl

seeing as the ibb and leap guys are reading this thread and it's basically run out of steam

Who own's the 3_rock 802.11b AP I'm picking up in donnybrook? The signal strength I'm getting is about right for it to be on 3 rock (I have perfect LOS). I've been told in an email from LEAP that they use 2.4ghz but not 802.11b, so is this irish broadbands? Anyone who know's who owns it, know if it's commercial or not? I'm always curious about the essid's i pick up.

quozl

LoBo

quozl, wireless stalker

STaN

Originally posted by quozl
I've been told in an email from LEAP that they use 2.4ghz but not 802.11b, so is this irish broadbands? Anyone who know's who owns it, know if it's commercial or not? I'm always curious about the essid's i pick up.

do you know what tech they are using?

quozl

Originally posted by STaN
do you know what tech they are using?

no idea at all. The guy kindly said I could ring up and he'd tell me about it, but I'm not that curious.
quozl