Defeat!

dathi1

We lost. The no camp ****. I'm moving to Switzerland. It was a very enjoyable debate and great campaign. I'm glad I played a part in stirring the pot against the pro federalist establishment. Despite the loss I feel great about the future and challenges that this treaty will throw at the Irish people. I hope I'm wrong on some of the pro Nice issues and I hope we can counter act the measures that will be thrown at us in the near future.

Loss and Defeat accepted. It was a resounding yes. dathi. good luck: Bonkey, Meh, Ph0b1, DaveIRL, Bertie etc. you'll / we will need it

pro_gnostic_8

edit>> post cancelled.

ReefBreak

<Deleted>

Good post Daithi. Despite everyone's yes or no opinions, don't forget that the 10 accession countries should have a brighter future.

meglome

I was never completely for or against this treaty so even though I did vote No in the end, I'm not really that put out.

One thing it has done for me is turned me against the government. Their attitude and tactics in all this have not exactly set a high standard. I think Fianna Fail has a lot to answer for over the last year and it’s a pity the next election is so far away.

Thank God it's all over.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

pro_gnostic_8

Look, my original post to this thread at 02.17 was witten after a Saturday night feed of drink and in a mood of anger at the Referendum outcome.

Now, in the cold grey light of sobriety I realise the comments were offensive and unnecessary. I realy regret having posted like I did, kay?

Apologies to all.

"Spoken in haste............." etc, etc.

Cork

Originally posted by dathi1
We lost. The no camp ****. I'm moving to Switzerland. It was a very enjoyable debate and great campaign. I'm glad I played a part in stirring the pot against the pro federalist establishment. Despite the loss I feel great about the future and challenges that this treaty will throw at the Irish people. I hope I'm wrong on some of the pro Nice issues and I hope we can counter act the measures that will be thrown at us in the near future.

Loss and Defeat accepted. It was a resounding yes. dathi. good luck: Bonkey, Meh, Ph0b1, DaveIRL, Bertie etc. you'll / we will need it

It will be very interesting - how we will cope having very little influence and becoming net contributors to the EU.

It will be interesting if industry closes down here to set up in other countries.

It will be interesting - the level of investment that will be needed in the applicant countries and how this will be paid for.

Irish military spending & future EU military operations will also be of much interest.

While I accept the YES vote - there will be consequences.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

zenith

Handy tip, in our cut-out-and-keep guide to politics:

People vote for Governments, Governments negotiate Treatys.
If you don't like the Treaties, don't elect the _same_ Government the next time.

Seems pretty simple to me. Helps encourage diversity of opinion, and all that.

---

Personally, the only delight I am taking in this defeat is that Justin Barrett and Anthony Coughlan, odious men, were on the losing side.

bugler

Wow, I only wish I could live in a country in which the elected government could do whatever they liked once they were elected, and the population would just have to lie there and take it, safe in the knowledge that they can always not vote for these characters in several years time. Did you not feel the slightest bit of shame when you typed that post, Zenith?

Originally posted by bugler
Wow, I only wish I could live in a country in which the elected government could do whatever they liked once they were elected, and the population would just have to lie there and take it, safe in the knowledge that they can always not vote for these characters in several years time. Did you not feel the slightest bit of shame when you typed that post, Zenith?

Well a government cannot do entirely what it likes, but it can reverse it's manifesto if it likes and risk the wrath of the electorate next time round.
mm

article6

I'd prefer the Yes parties in government any day, and so would most of the country... What horrifies me is that they can disregard the voice of those who bothered to vote last time so easily. Nice's effects will be negative, but not so negative to make me move out of the country (the country now being Europe). We can work around the flaws, but it would have been easier to reject the Treaty.

I personally think that the YES side made very few positive contributions to the debate. They scared us into submission by threatening us with jobs. We're going to lose them anyway! It doesn't matter!

One true claim I saw from YES was that it will bring us "growth". Work it out for yourself. All I'll say is, Irish people won't be more eager for it just because of a Treaty. Then again, the new Irish would come anyway, and I'm not opposed to it.

I've stated what horrifies me, but what disgusts me is the amount of money spent by both sides, but particularly YES, which could have gone to, say, St. Vincent de Paul. Instead, it's gone on litter. A disgusting burden on the environment, whichever way the referendum would have went.

To sum it up? A newfound disrespect for my own party Fianna Fáil, the Irish Independent and IBEC.

<<<EDIT>>> Whoops, used little when I should have used few. No worries

DeVore

I didnt vote in the end for my own reasons and while I may have been a vocal proponent of the No side, I genuinely would have LIKED someone to come up with a stunning reason to vote yes.

As a european and a human I'm glad the new countries will be allowed in, but I think it will have a bad effect on Ireland.

I'll tell you one thing though, like many here I'm utterly appalled with the government about this and recent revelations.
I'd definitely vote in the next general election if, as DaveIRL points out, there was anyone else who isnt as corrupt and stupid as the current bunch.

DeV.

bugler

Originally posted by Man
Well a government cannot do entirely what it likes, but it can reverse it's manifesto if it likes

I was referring more to bigger constitutional issues such as Nice et al, rather than standard manifesto issues. Our need to hold referendums on such matters is one of the few things I like about our political system, even if they do become trashy bítchfights like this last one.

mike65

Originally posted by DeVore

As a european and a human I'm glad the new countries will be allowed in, but I think it will have a bad effect on Ireland.

DeV.

Eh? Is'nt that a logical non-sequitur?

You can't pick and choose.

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by article6
I'd prefer the Yes parties in government any day, and so would most of the country... What horrifies me is that they can disregard the voice of those who bothered to vote last time so easily. Nice's effects will be negative, but not so negative to make me move out of the country (the country now being Europe). We can work around the flaws, but it would have been easier to reject the Treaty.

I personally think that the YES side made very few positive contributions to the debate. They scared us into submission by threatening us with jobs. We're going to lose them anyway! It doesn't matter!

One true claim I saw from YES was that it will bring us "growth". Work it out for yourself. All I'll say is, Irish people won't be more eager for it just because of a Treaty. Then again, the new Irish would come anyway, and I'm not opposed to it.

I've stated what horrifies me, but what disgusts me is the amount of money spent by both sides, but particularly YES, which could have gone to, say, St. Vincent de Paul. Instead, it's gone on litter. A disgusting burden on the environment, whichever way the referendum would have went.

To sum it up? A newfound disrespect for my own party Fianna Fáil, the Irish Independent and IBEC.

I would agree with these comments 100% - They are going to be consequences for this vote. I think that OFFICIAL IRELAND all clubbed together after their last defeat. I too have a new found disrespect for FF - but If there was an election tomorrow morning - I would still vote FF as there is no credable alternative.

I never cared for the Irish Independent and IBEC. The Irish Independent's atitude to the Peace Process and IBECS atitude to paying workers.

As an Irish man and a European - I hope that Ireland will still have some influence in the EU. I hope that the EU will not rail road small nations. Let's hope.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I too have a new found disrespect for FF - but If there was an election tomorrow morning - I would still vote FF as there is no credable alternative.

And while they retain votes from people like you, there never can be a credible alternative, as the system will see no need to change.

This is where a spoiled vote can be useful. Rather than giving your vote to FF, give it to no-one if you believe there is no credible alternative.

It wouldnt take a genius to see a correlation between a huge drop in FF votes accompanied by a huge increase in spoiled votes.

I think, however, that the discontentment that people have with the major political parties regarding this rerun would be better spent in agitating for rule-change to prevent this type of sitution reoccurring, rather than in direct "attacks" on the guilty.

jc

DeVore

Originally posted by mike65
Eh? Is'nt that a logical non-sequitur?

You can't pick and choose.

Mike.

Eh? There is no logical non-sequitur here.

Its good for Europe (debatable but I think in the long term, it is).
Its good from a morale human standpoint.
Its bad for Ireland SPECIFICALLY (I believe.)

Its possible for something to have a global benefit and a local detrimental effect. In fact its quite common.

DeV.

zenith

Originally posted by bugler
Wow, I only wish I could live in a country in which the elected government could do whatever they liked once they were elected, and the population would just have to lie there and take it, safe in the knowledge that they can always not vote for these characters in several years time. Did you not feel the slightest bit of shame when you typed that post, Zenith?

Ignoring the hyperbole, that's why they're called elected representatives: because they're elected, and they're representative. If you don't trust rasberry to do the right thing, vote blackcurrant, or run as fruit salad. Don't just complain that raspberry is not to your taste, and insist that you get to pick and choose what's on the menu for everyone just because you have a pulse.

That's pulse in the heartbeat sense, as opposed to the fruit and veg sense.

We can't all get involved in all the decision-making all of the time, bugler. You get enough people backing you, mate, you can run the place. 'The population' that you invoke don't all feel the same way that you do, though.

mike65

Okay Dev, its not a non-sequiter, but the point remains. You can't pick and choose, either the 10 are in with all the pros and cons or they're not.

I for one am glad they've got the chance to join, God only knows what this country would be like now if it had'nt joined the EEC. It would still be in the dark ages, some would say it still is-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67338


Mike.

gurramok

Can we have a re-run of this referendum again ?
Reason?....low turnout.
Voter turnout was below 50% !!
I say we need a re-run for the 3rd time until we get a majority to turnout and vote !!
Remember bertie & co disregarded the result of the first nice ballot, why not disregard it this time ?

bonkey

gurramok - we (the mods) have asked that we not descend into that realm of discussion thank you.

Regarding Dev's stance...I agree fully. I am glad that the 10 nations get a chance to join. I also agree that giving them this chance will involve sacrifices for Ireland and other existing EU members. We must pay for the opportunities we are giving them...how else will they get them.

So yes, I am glad, and yes, it will cost Ireland.

Whether or not the EU will be able to pay enough to have made the effort worthwhile in the long term is something we cannot know until time has passed, so I have my concerns. I dont want to see Ireland's economy broken in our attempts to help others. However, I still believe we are right to make the attempt.

Of course, if it pays off, the benefits to ourselves will pay back our investment, and the benefits to the new member nations will be immeasurable

jc

Bard

Originally posted by gurramok

Can we have a re-run of this referendum again ?
Reason?....low turnout.
Voter turnout was below 50% !!
Remember bertie & co disregarded the result of the first nice ballot, why not disregard it this time ?

For a number of reasons:

• By recent standards (the turnout was less than 35% for the last Nice Treaty referendum), a 49.47% turnout is quite good in Ireland. Besides, if you consciously decide not to vote or just don't bother, then you don't have any say in the result and have no real right to complain about the outcome. The people have spoken -... well - those who actually cared to speak have...
• There is a lot less confusion around this time over what exactly the issues were that we were voting on and unlike last time, an overwhelming majority (approx. 2 out of 3) of those who showed up to vote voted for the same option in every single constituency.
• And finally there is no time to disregard it and run the referendum again - every country was required to decide by December 31st 2002 whether or not they would ratify the treaty. The government had thier "one more shot" by running THIS referendum. To run it for a third time would not only be farcical, but it would be impractical, time-wise.

Surely now that the issue is settled, people can remove their pro or anti Nice Treaty slogans from their signatures here, in emails, on Usenet, etc. and discussion can return to relative normality... :rolleyes:

mike65

...and to think all of this could have been avoided had the government done its job the first time round. That said it can be argued ppl voted with a slightly better understanding of the issues this time.

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by mike65
...and to think all of this could have been avoided had the government done its job the first time round. That said it can be argued ppl voted with a slightly better understanding of the issues this time.

Mike.

Will we have to rerun the General election now.

This logic is absurd.

The people gave their say. It was not respected.

Should the Maastricht treaty be re-run as well?

I think that the second Nice vote was a victory for Bertie - & while as a democrat - I respect it.

A second vote should not have taken place as the first vote should have been respected.

Typedef

Unfortunately the entire concept of the government of this country reserving the right to choose in a discressionary manner which votes count as the soverign action of a nation and which one's in fact do not, is in fact an abrogation of democracy.

It is in my view a cynical form of pseudo democracy and yes folks you don't have to live in Iraq for the governmnet to abuse the electoral system no matter what the Irish Independant or Irish Times would have you believe about the purity of Irish democracy (for some random reason).

On Saturday, I believe this country witnessed the government of this country seriously undermining the very foundation of the Republic of Ireland by casting aside a Referendum result that didn't suit it, nor more accurately it's European counterparts. I'm sorry did I miss a meeting? Since when do the other European's opinions on the Irish electoral process supercede the established electoral motif in Ireland? Oh I get it, since the European Comission can and has effectively told the government of this country to do what it takes to overturn the first Referendum result, which funnily enough it exactly what the government has done.

The Nice Treaty (for the Yes voters who actually bothered to look it up) contains a plethora of components that are absolutely nothing to do with enlargement of the Union, yet still when voters voted 'Yes' ignorantly saying "Europe is good for Ireland" that very simple reason to vote 'Yes' satisfies the government, well of course it does, the government got it's result, so why should it care how that result came about. Ask most Yes voters what is contained in Article 133 of the Nice Treaty and they will give you a blank look, and perhaps tell you that "Europe is good for Ireland", no matter that 'ignorance of Europe' was the excuse the government used to have a second Referendum on a defeated Treaty.

But what really annoys me is that Irish people allow the government to step all over them and don't say a damned word about it. Corrupt government Ministers, discressionary democracy and cherry picked Referenda, Justice Ministers who allow the authority of the State be undermined by not persuing paedophile clerics, because lets face it, that's not how pulpit politicians derive support. Perhaps this propensity to simply accept abuse from the elite in society stems from six hundred years of colonial rule from England. Whatever the reason it doesn't really make me angry as sorry for the Irish people.

Typedef

dathi1

Perhaps I'm a total b$stard but I actually enjoy watching people paying for their mistakes through ignorance. The Dun laoghire brigade think that they are exempt from any incursion by the new federal dictates.....hehe wait till they get a load of the new taxes which will be introduced.
Property Tax...(Euro socialists cant understand the Irish model of owning your own property)
Water Tax....( a defo) Harney loves this one.
They say there was a middle / working class divide yes/no on the vote. I reckon that Foxrock will lose as much if not more than Finglas.

Cork

accept abuse from the elite in society stems from six hundred years of colonial rule from England

````````

I think that - we have this is common with many post colonial countrys. I think that - We are a people lack a certain degree of self confidence.


I think OFFICIAL Ireland - won.

But I think the labour party and FF were always more radical than FG. It is disappointing that they are now as establishment.

Water tax is on the way. I don't know about property tax but there will be consequences.

I feel that the Irish government needs clout in the debate over Europe. I think that we have handed in our bargaining chips & put up the white flag.

Calling yes voters ignorant doesn't deserve much comment.
I thought Bonkey had set the stall for posts after the referendum:

As the votes come in, and after the result is anounced, we will have no triumphalism. We will have no "told ya so" posts, no "up yours, losers". Equally, we will have no reactive "call to arms" or "travesty of justice" posts.

from:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67404

mm

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
I feel that the Irish government needs clout in the debate over Europe. I think that we have handed in our bargaining chips & put up the white flag.

Actually, I think rejecting Nice the first time and accepting it the second time may have given us the best of both worlds in terms of negotiating clout. I can see Bertie now at the next EU conference -- "Sorry Jacques/Gerhard/Tony, I'd love to compromise with you on that but the voters back home would never accept it. Remember what happened last time with Nice?"

Typedef

Originally posted by Man
Calling yes voters ignorant doesn't deserve much comment.

No one has said 'all' are ignorant, however you must acknowledge that it is ilegitimate for the Yes supports to have accused the No supporters of being ignorant and use that supposed ignorance as grounds to have a second Referendum only to vote essentially in ignorance of the real treaty text themselves and then turn around and claim it as a victory for informed European integration.

To quantify this claim I would point out that the vast majority of Yes voters (and no No voters) do not in fact have the slightest idea what is contained in Article 133 of the Nice Treaty for example. Therefore most Yes voters I have talked to outside of discussion forums like this one have tertly replied to me that "Europe is good for Ireland" or that "Europe has given Ireland lots of money", neither of which claims they can, nor feel the need to quantify to any great degree. Similarly there is ignorance on the No side too, I will freely admit, however it is skewed in the extreme to claim this is some sort of great illucidated result for the Yes campaign, in my view and unfortunately for some I am entitled to that view, this overturn has been about which side could spend more money and extoll the most propaganda. Thus most voters voted in ignorance of what the Treaty text was or at best had vague notions of what it implied. Somehow though the Yes campaigners who shouted "J'Accuse you are ignorant" when the vote went against them in the first Referendum, can't seem to make the logical jump to admitting that most voters (including the Yes voters) still don't really understand the Treaty and thus on the grounds the last Referendum was re-run (ie ignorant voters), one might reasonably make the same claim in perpetuity until voters do understand the Treaty text itself.

There is no need to hide behind bonkey if you can't acknowledge that!