Violent Street Crime in Dublin

daveg

There are some very valid points. But I have to say that in most cases the parents are to blame. Bringing your child up with a firm understanding of right and wrong and respect for others is one of the most important things you can instill in a child. There are too many kids these days who are brought up in the "latch key kid" enviroment where the parents dont give a flying f*ck what there kids are up to and where they are. I was brought up to respect other people and their possections. I honestly believe that 90% of these "scumbags" in Dublin come from homes where they were not cared for and were allowed to do whatever they want. As someone once said you have to have a licence to own a bag but any asshole can bring a child into this world.

RainyDay

Hi Dave - While I agree that good parenting is critically important, it's not the only factor. There was a very interesting documentary on psychopathic behaviour last night, which basically concluded that for many of these guys - 'it's in the genes' - Therefore, it has nothing to do with upbringing or parenting. I've known one case of one sibling from an otherwise 'good family' (whatever that means) who went totally off the rails, despite having the same parents/school/home that the others had.

daveg

Rainy - I agree with you that not all kids with bad upbringing's end up that way but I do believe a large %age is due to bad parenting.

mike65

I blame the parents!

Okay I was being slighly flip and should have made that clear, sorry.

However the job of parents is to bring up thier children to be "society friendly" True parents can't and should'nt directly control thier children round-the-clock but well bought up children don't need to be watched all the time. Other factors are at work though, peer pressure is proberly as important, some might say more so.

Genetic tweaks plainly cause difficult childen and adults but so does something like food. Kids love junk food and some eat litle else, it loaded to give the eater a "high" and a rush of energy anyone with young chrildren will proberly know this as junior goes mad after a big nosh of additives.

Mike.

MrPudding

I have seen research carried out on men on death row. They found that a large percentage of them had a chromosomal abnormality. Instead of the normal xy for a male they have xyy. Given the fact that a large percentage of the most violent offenders carry this defect it would seem that there is a genetic reason for some people’s predisposition for violence and/or scummy behavior. This is an extreme example and I know there are others. Even so, anti social behavior cannot be blamed solely on genetic makeup. There is an element of environment and some would argue that this is even more important. I personally feel that parenting and environment are the most important factors that will shape the way the vast majority of children grow into adults.

Slutmonkey57b

Dublin's late night crime rate has rocketed in the past 5-10 years, and I'm afraid it's not all "scumbag" kids that do it.
The frightening thing is that nowadays you don't know who you're going to get it from. I've seen politicians assaulting people (I sh!t you not).

Still, it could be worse, we could live in South Africa.

Wook

sorry to see that some people don't think that parenting can and will have an influence on the character of a child. If you allready start thinking like this, well i hope you never have to raise them.
Who else would teach kids the meaning of 'respect', 'self control', and who better then parents to guide them trough life ? you want to have a counsilor for every kid ? Yes i do say that a big part of the crime rate from kids is family related.
Somebody said that they are 'just' kids, want to talk to you when they plunge a knife in your back...

The Saint

I think it has a hell of a lot to do with parenting. OK, I know I'm generalising here but most of these undesirables are from working class families who live in apartment blocks. You can walk down O'Connell st and see young children being slapped about the head and legs and have profanities screamed in their faces. I dont think this behaviour encourages self control or dicipline. If these children have this insecurity in their lives and see from their parents that violence is the way to deal with issues, after all, monkey see, monkey do. I was not hit by my parents, I was taught the difference between right and wrong. I also had the luxury of always being able to indulge in things that I was interested in with the support of my parents. Parents need to take an active interest in what their children do. I'm not saying I was the perfect child or teenager but I never assaulted someone or screamed profanities in someones face in my life. I had an reletavely stable childhood, considering I have 5 sisters and 1 brother and my parents separated when I was in my early teens, but my parents always took an interest in our lives and I am glad to say that out of seven children they raised 7 professional, well mannered, successful adults some now with their own families. I know there are other reasons for antisocial behaviour but I strongly believe that a childs home and family life will affect a childs behaviour for the rest of their lives.

RainyDay

Just to clarify - I didn't say that parenting isn't important - Of course it is.

However, the commonly used 'blame the parents' is a vast overgeneralisation. There are many individuals who received a loving, disciplined, caring upbringing who turned bad, and vice vearsa of course.

damien_gill

Everyone blames the Gardai. It's not their fault it our Government. Sure in yesterdays paper there was an article that all Garda courses in Templmore (i think thats the Garda college) are suspended indefinitly due to lack of funding.

I am of the opinion that the "scummers" out there are out for respect / attention. (not all of them but some of them are)

I think one of the keys to sorting out this problem is to look at new punishments / solutions. Instead of locking a joyrider up why not train him to be a mechanic (expensive i know however in the long run thats one less scummer off the streets and contributing to society) And in the long term the costs are less as well. It costs about 200euros a day to keep a prisoner dunno how much to train a mechanic but if that person constantly re-offends then surely in the long run the mechanic thing is a much better option.

This is an idea that I believe could really work. These scummers are out for respect only thing is they have no way of getting respect from society due to lack of oppurtunity / education / situation etc. So they impress by acting all "hard" in front of their mates.

But the thing that annoys me the most is that our Government as always are simply BURYING THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND and praying that this problem will go away.

It wont and I believe that it is only a matter of time before they realise this and try something radical. However, the question is WHAT WILL THEY DO?

l3rian

i think that there is many steps the government can do to stop violent street crime in dublin, but all these steps would be considered too hardline, and no minister would back them because the reality of the situation is unconceivable to most irish citizens who dont live in the bad areas. the solutions are clear:
- bring back hanging for murderers
- arm the gardai
- build new jails
- introduce cctv in bad areas
- create a system like they have in new york, where gardai are responsible for the crime levels in their area (anyone see that program on irish cops in ny?)
- work camps in jails
- death-penalty to anyone with heroin, like in thailand
the main point is that all these steps are directed at criminals only, the only difference we would notice is that gardai would be armed, they could even limit the amount of armed gardai to bad areas

MrPudding

There are several problems in our society. Your suggestions don't really help any of them.

Originally posted by l3rian
i think that there is many steps the government can do to stop violent street crime in dublin, but all these steps would be considered too hardline, and no minister would back them because the reality of the situation is unconceivable to most irish citizens who dont live in the bad areas. the solutions are clear:
- bring back hanging for murderers
- arm the gardai
- build new jails
- introduce cctv in bad areas
- create a system like they have in new york, where gardai are responsible for the crime levels in their area (anyone see that program on irish cops in ny?)
- work camps in jails
- death-penalty to anyone with heroin, like in thailand
the main point is that all these steps are directed at criminals only, the only difference we would notice is that gardai would be armed, they could even limit the amount of armed gardai to bad areas

The death Sentence is murder, state sponsored, but murder nonetheless, but let’s put that aside. It is also very expensive. In the US it apparently costs more to put someone to death than it does to keep them in jail for the rest of their lives. And that doesn’t include compensation for relatives if the person who was put to death was not actually guilty. The death penalty is also not a deterrent, so what is the point of it? A lifetime in prison without the chance of parole would be a better deterrent to me than death, suffering stops when you die.

The cost of arming the Gardi (actually buying the weapons), paying compensation for unlawful deaths, prosecuting Gardi for unlawful deaths and all the other sundries would be massive. Add to this the cost of new prisons, if you think the cost of a tree bed in Kilcock is bad try building a prison. Then you have to run the prison, prison officers don’t come cheap. All this adds up to a stupidly huge amount of money. One question, where is it going to come from? I don’t want to pay it. I would rather my money went somewhere that works and gives better value for money. Check out this lot http://www.c-far.org.uk/pr.html it might not be cheap but it stands a better chance of rehabilitating someone than normal prison. Putting people to death and in prison is the curative option we need to move to a more preventative model.

RainyDay

- bring back hanging for murderers
- arm the gardai
- build new jails
- introduce cctv in bad areas
- create a system like they have in new york, where gardai are responsible for the crime levels in their area (anyone see that program on irish cops in ny?)
- work camps in jails
- death-penalty to anyone with heroin, like in thailand

Of course - why didn't we think of this before - Look at how successful these steps have been at eliminating the crime problems in the US & Thailand

The Saint

We would also be kicked out of the EU.

mike65

Originally posted by The Saint
We would also be kicked out of the EU.

That would please some on the politcs board!

Its proberly not a coincidence that l3rians avatar is a gun...it should be a muppett.

Mike.

l3rian

rainy, that crime prevention scheme in new york, making cops accountable for the amount of crime in their area, really did work http://www.ncpc.org/nyc.htm

pudding, i have reconsidered the death penalty suggestions as they are not practical, so i have reviewed my suggestions

- build new jails, with work camps, and no drugs (restrict all access between prisoners and visitors etc)

- introduce cctv in bad areas, the success of this would depend on the area covered and the responce time of gardai to crimes

- create a system like they have in new york, where gardai are responsible for the crime levels in their area, this would really make a difference as gardai seem like the rest of the private sector not to have any insentive to work harder

mike do you ever make proper points in your posts?

RainyDay

Good to see that you've dropped the more ludicrous points from your original post, l3rian.

Arming the Gardai is a crazy idea - just look at the US - when the cops get guns, the bad guys get bigger guns & more guns - it's that simple.

Jails with work camps were attempted by the great Maggie Thatcher in the UK in the 1980's - the 'short, sharp, shock' they called it - t'was another abysmal failure, and created a generation of young people with a grudge against society. And as for drug-free, just ask any prison officer about the practicalities of this. It's the drugs that ensure that our prisons aren't a festival of stabbings & rapes. Take away the drugs & mayhem will ensue.

OK - so making the Gardai accountable just might help. On the other hand, it might mean that the guards are more concerned with crime statistics than crime itself. Any such measurement/incentive system can be massaged, and those on the inside will learn just how to massage it quickly.

The only solution is to address the real causes of crime.

PiE

It bloody well is the parents fault and its their responsibility to ensure their kids aren't out beating up/mugging/killing innocent people.

The parents don't actually care about morals. They don't have any and therefore the kids wont have any. They think in the same way the kids do: if they can get away with it, hurrah!

It's a matter of the kids being products of their enviroment and it's proved by the fact that are a lot of decent, honest people who grow up in the same areas and go on to live crime-free lives.

RainyDay

So tell us the secret of parenting then, PiE - Let's say you're the parent of a sulky 16 year old, who won't tell you where they're going, who they're hanging round with, or where they're getting the money to fund the cigarettes you smell each time they come into the house. You grounded him last month, but he climbed out the bedroom window twice to get out of the house.

How are you, as a parent, going to make sure he's not up to mischeif, vandalism or murder?

MrPudding

The vast majority of parents seem to do a good job. Of course there will be some kids who are difficult to deal with. I think that when people in this thread mention bad parenting they mean parents who don't give a f**k what their kids are doing. I see it on my street, young kids out til after midnight playing football and banging it off peoples windows and cars. They do not have an ounce of respect for other peoples feelings or property and their parents do not give a s**t either. Parents should instill a sense of respect in their children for other people, their property and their feelings. This is not something that you work out for yourself, it is something that you are taught by your parents. Of course some kids will become sulky 16 year olds, this does not mean they will become criminals, most 16 year olds are like this. There is not a switch which says “I’m 16 and I’m sulky therefore I will become a criminal.” Your have 16 years to shape this kids outlooks before they become a sulky 16 year old, if you have done your job properly this will shine through.

seamus

Originally posted by RainyDay
Arming the Gardai is a crazy idea - just look at the US - when the cops get guns, the bad guys get bigger guns & more guns - it's that simple.

Well, not really. Over here it's only large gangs and organised criminals who could get their hands on large weapons. Your common-or-garden thug wouldn't have easy access to large weapons. Of course in America, you can buy an automatic assualt rifle, based on a dodgy interpretation of the constitution, and in the name of "home protection". So in America, your common-or-garden criminal has access to large powerful weapons, creating more hassle for the police.

Besides, the Gardai do a fine job without weapons, they're just disgustingly understaffed......

MrPudding

Originally posted by seamus
Of course in America, you can buy an automatic assualt rifle, based on a dodgy interpretation of the constitution, and in the name of "home protection".

You cannot buy automatic assault rifles.

seamus

Originally posted by MrPudding
You cannot buy automatic assault rifles.

OK, but up until a few years ago, you could buy semi-automatics, in 2004, the ban on them is up for review. And with Bush and chunks of Congress owned by the NRA............I'm going OT

daveg

As someone once said you have to have a licence to own a bag but any asshole can bring a child into this world

ROTFL - I did of course mean dog as opposed to bag

daveg

The vast majority of parents seem to do a good job. Of course there will be some kids who are difficult to deal with. I think that when people in this thread mention bad parenting they mean parents who don't give a f**k what their kids are doing. I see it on my street, young kids out til after midnight playing football and banging it off peoples windows and cars. They do not have an ounce of respect for other peoples feelings or property and their parents do not give a s**t either. Parents should instill a sense of respect in their children for other people, their property and their feelings. This is not something that you work out for yourself, it is something that you are taught by your parents. Of course some kids will become sulky 16 year olds, this does not mean they will become criminals, most 16 year olds are like this. There is not a switch which says “I’m 16 and I’m sulky therefore I will become a criminal.” Your have 16 years to shape this kids outlooks before they become a sulky 16 year old, if you have done your job properly this will shine through.

I totally Agree. What about making the Parents responsible for thier childs actions. ie some 15 year old scumbag joyrides or mugs someone prosecute the parents (dont they have that in the uk ?).

yankinlk

What responsibility do you think falls on the proprieter of the Cinema? I dont live in that area, so I wonder, do they have ANY sort of security in operation?

Surely if the offense occurs on their property they have a duty to prevent things like this happening. If the "scum with bad parents" have no place to hang out/loiter / cause trouble they cant harm as many people.

Im late to this party, and I agree with some who think that the parents are a big part of the problem. I also agree that the gardai have a role, but so do the people making money day in and day out selling popcorn to these "scumbags".

PiE

Originally posted by RainyDay
You grounded him last month, but he climbed out the bedroom window twice to get out of the house.

Bolt the window shut.

Simple really.

RainyDay

Bolt the window shut

I'm not sure whether you're serious or facetious. But just in case you're being serious, it's not a simple answer. So you bolt his window, and he gets out the bathroom window, or unscrews the bolt, or goes off with his mates on the way home from school. It's just not physically possible to keep any human being under physical restraint 24 hours a day.

Blade

Originally posted by yankinlk
What responsibility do you think falls on the proprieter of the Cinema? I dont live in that area, so I wonder, do they have ANY sort of security in operation?

The assault didn't happen outside the cinema, it happened in the park next to the complex, he made his way to the cinema for help

I'd also like to add that when the scumbags TXT the girlfriend, they said 'HA HA we have his mobile'. A few people including the media twisted this slightly to make out that they TXT her to laugh at the fact that they killed him. I'm not sure if it was said on this thread cause I can't find it now but I saw someone mentioning this on one of the related topics. This is one of the reasons their going for manslaughter rather than murder. They obviously think it would be difficult to get a conviction of murder because it would be hard to prove that they really wanted to kill the chap, even though the b@stard stabbed him twice in the heart. I could see this coming when I first heard about it, this little b@stard is going to get 3 years and probably be let out in 2 and will be still only 17 or 18 when he gets out, to me this just doesn't add up comparing it to the Nigerian guy who got 5 years for trying to run over people in town where no one was killed. I'm not sayin he should get any less but the scumbag who stabbed the young lad should serve at least 10 years as far as I'm concerned. The lad who was murdered worked accross the road in the golf shop and was a regular customer of ours, very quiet and polite young man.

yankinlk

thanks for the reply, you obviously have a lot of first hand knowledge about what happened to this poor young lad.

i guess what i meant was more that the "community" shares a responsibilty to look out for others that live in it. If it means the father going round and teaching a lesson to the kid throwing fireworks or the shop keeper not selling a dozen cans of whipcream to a teenager or a parent caring where there child is at 1100 at night.

i agree with the person that said what happens in dublin will slowly seep into the rest of the country...its just that attitude of looking out for yourself, not knowing your neighbor etc.