Violent Street Crime in Dublin

PiE

Originally posted by RainyDay
I'm not sure whether you're serious or facetious.

I'm not being facetious and I'm not taking the piss. If a parent can't stop their child commiting crimes (I'm not talking about using fireworks or kicking a ball against a window here) they're not fit to be parents.

Biffa Bacon

My proposal, I've said it many times before, is that knackers should have their rights as citizens revoked and be reduced to the status of slaves.

Violent crime in this country would be trivially easy to solve, it's just that no politician in this country has the brains/ability/desire to do it.

RainyDay

If a parent can't stop their child commiting crimes (I'm not talking about using fireworks or kicking a ball against a window here) they're not fit to be parents.

You're probably right in the majority of cases - Good parenting is critically important & has a key role in determining the attitudes of kids. However, there are cases (& I know one particular case) where kids just go off the rails for no apparent reason. One child in a family of four kids (where the other three turned out to be fine, upright citizens) just went off the rails - turned to vandalism, booze, car theft, serious crime/assaults & hard drugs over a five year time span - despite the fact that he had largely the same upbringing as his three siblings.

Do you blame that one on bad parenting too - Life just isn't always that simple.

I've no idea what caused it - maybe it was genetic, maybe it came from an illness like depression, maybe he was abused by the local parish priest - But the ould 'blame the parents' line is a gross over-simplification.

PiE

Of course there are exceptions to everything, but I stand by my view that 99% of "scumbaggish behaviour" (as it is so eloquently known) comes from bad parenting.

I'm assuming that kid with the 3 brothers/sisters was the youngest? He probably felt pressurised by the achievements of his siblings and what started as a bit of rebelling (as we all do in our teens) was taken too far. That's probably the cause of a lot of the scumbags who don't come from disadvantages areas/families.

Then again there's the well-off scumbags who think its "cool" to be one. But they're just pathetic anyway.

RainyDay

I'm assuming that kid with the 3 brothers/sisters was the youngest?

No - 3rd out of 4, as it happens

PiE

The rest of the post still applies :]

D-Generate

Street Crime is not just limited to Dublin, Limerick and Cork in my opinion are much more dangerous due to the fact that everyone ends up just gathering in 2/3 streets on Friday night compared to Dublins many streets. In Cork there is a street called Grand Parade infamous for the many beatings that occur there. On a lot of busy nights you will see someone being beaten by a group of thugs, there are Gardaí on the street at the time but they will not interfere because they are not being paid enough for suicide. What we need is more police and/or better equipment for the gardaí such as stronger batons and protective vests, but no lethal force.


Or else we could just fill a Hi-Ace with 5 people in balaclavas armed with baseball bats and patrol the streets our selves.

Until either one of these is done nothing will deter a scumbag from fighting from the fear of getting the crap beaten out of him.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
My proposal, I've said it many times before, is that knackers should have their rights as citizens revoked and be reduced to the status of slaves.

Violent crime in this country would be trivially easy to solve, it's just that no politician in this country has the brains/ability/desire to do it.

If its so trivial, please explain the infallability of your system. I'm afraid my poor little brain cant see the trivially easy solution...or rather cant see any solution (trivial or otherwise) which will accetably solve the problem.

Explain how we wont have a nation full of innocent slaves, or how you will ensure that all offenders are actually caught.

What you are proposing is a sentencing change. This does not solve the problem. It never has, anywhere in the world. It may alleviate it somewhat, but it is not a solution.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by RainyDay
You're probably right in the majority of cases - Good parenting is critically important & has a key role in determining the attitudes of kids.

Absolutely. One can also take it one step further and claim that good parenting also involves identifying aspects of a child's life/upbringing which are having negative implications for that kid's attitudes, in which case, they should do something about it.

Example - if a kid is hanging out with the wrong crowd, are the parents to blame? If a child is getting teased by its peer-group, are the parents to blame? You can argue it either way, but you must ask yourself who is to blame if its not the parents.

However, there are cases (& I know one particular case) where kids just go off the rails for no apparent reason.

'Apparent' being the key word here.

If his reasons for going off the rails were apparent, then it would clearly be the parents fault for not dealing with an apparent problem.

If the problem is not apparent, how can we definitely say that it isnt the parents fault? We cant.

One child in a family of four kids (where the other three turned out to be fine, upright citizens) just went off the rails - turned to vandalism, booze, car theft, serious crime/assaults & hard drugs over a five year time span - despite the fact that he had largely the same upbringing as his three siblings.

It does not matter if he had largely the same upbringing as his three siblings. What matters is if he had the correct upbringing for him.

Given that we dont know the reasons for why he turned bad, its kinda hard to say that he did, just because it happened to work with someone else.

If we were to apply that logic stringently, the conclusion is that we should be able to define a "rulebook" which defines how to briong up a child fully correctly, and we could simply apply this formula to all children.

Which Im sure everyone will agree is a silly idea.¨

jc

Mr.Applepie

Originally posted by Difficult
how come none of this is going on in foxrock ? blackrock ? kiliney ? malahide ? is it only working class parents that are bad parents ???

Actually there is quite a lot of scummers in malahide(well wannabe scummers). Leave in nice house, parents drive mercs and they walk around robbing and generally acting the tit

Sand

Explain how we wont have a nation full of innocent slaves, or how you will ensure that all offenders are actually caught.

What you are proposing is a sentencing change. This does not solve the problem. It never has, anywhere in the world. It may alleviate it somewhat, but it is not a solution.

Id say the Guards are pretty good at catching crinimals. You wont catch every lollypop thief of course, but the main problem for the guards is the fact that the people they catch are out on bail and those who actually get sentenced get jokes of sentences.

When youre busy catching not only new crinimals but crinimals who are re offending after being released youre going to be a bit overworked. As well as suffering from pretty low morale at the uselessness of bothering to catch crinimals in the first place. Its not like they wont be back on the streets again very shortly. The crinimals, especially the scumbags juniors, of course get the exact opposite- even if they are caught theyre not likely to get a sentence thats of any real deterrent value.

In that light, a sentencing change is *exactly* whats needed.

Im mystified as to how drugs and "crinimal tutorials" can exist in a controlled system like a prison should be. Why is it so hard to keep prisoner contact with other prisoners at an absolute minimum? Stick them in their cell and leave them there. I mean do they have their own set of keys to let them have the run of the prison?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey
If its so trivial, please explain the infallability of your system.

Obviously, I would never suppose that any system could be considered infallible.

I'm afraid my poor little brain cant see the trivially easy solution...

Perhaps "trivially" easy is an exaggeration. But I certainly think that it wouldn't be too hard to effect a massive reduction in the level of crime in this country.

...or rather cant see any solution (trivial or otherwise) which will accetably solve the problem.

Are you suggesting we just throw our hands up in the air and forget about it?

Explain how we wont have a nation full of innocent slaves, or how you will ensure that all offenders are actually caught.

The same way we don't have a nation full of innocent prison inmates.

What you are proposing is a sentencing change. This does not solve the problem. It never has, anywhere in the world. It may alleviate it somewhat, but it is not a solution.

It would certainly be an improvement in every way on our current judicial system.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sand
Im mystified as to how drugs and "crinimal tutorials" can exist in a controlled system like a prison should be. Why is it so hard to keep prisoner contact with other prisoners at an absolute minimum? Stick them in their cell and leave them there. I mean do they have their own set of keys to let them have the run of the prison?

It's because our prisons are badly run. Simple as that.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Obviously, I would never suppose that any system could be considered infallible.

...

Perhaps "trivially" easy is an exaggeration.

...

Are you suggesting we just throw our hands up in the air and forget about it?

...

It would certainly be an improvement in every way on our current judicial system.

Well, I'm glad to see that we've gone from a system which is such a glaringly trivial solution to all of our problems to one which may offer an improvement in our situation at a certain cost.

We must now ask whether or not it is a cost we are willing to pay. Exactly where will the line be drawn between offenders who become slaves and those who dont. How long will people be enslaved for. Exactly what, if any, human rights will they retain. Exactly how we will justify these actions to international bodies like the UN who seem caught up with silly little concepts such as the Universality of Human Rights.

Maybe when we get to the bottom of all these, you'll begin to realise why there isnt a glaringly simple solution that we just need the balls to grab, and that rather, there is a massively extremist solution which should offer some improvement in a certain area at a massive cost.

jc

Biffa Bacon

We must now ask whether or not it is a cost we are willing to pay. Exactly where will the line be drawn between offenders who become slaves and those who dont. How long will people be enslaved for.

I don’t see this as a particular problem. We are able to draw a line between offenders who are imprisoned and those who aren’t. We are able to come up with proportionate prison sentences for them.

To be a bit more specific, however, I would suggest that violent crimes such as murder, rape, theft, vandalism, assault and other crimes against the person be punishable by enslavement. Non-violent crimes such as tax evasion, fraud, traffic violations, drug-dealing etc. should be punishable by fines, including confiscation of property if necessary.

Exactly what, if any, human rights will they retain.

Pretty much the same rights prisoners in our jails have at the moment, it’s just that they’d have to work if they wanted to be fed or have a bed to sleep in at night.

Exactly how we will justify these actions to international bodies like the UN who seem caught up with silly little concepts such as the Universality of Human Rights.

The same way we justify imprisoning people. The UN Declaration of Human Rights only forbids “cruel and unusual punishment”. I don’t think what I’m proposing falls under either category. You might object that it’s unusual, but criminals are forced to carry out hard labour all around the world, it’s just that no one explicitly calls it “slavery”. And if the EU or UN does insist on getting snotty about it, you can just call it “non-voluntary corrective labour” or something like that.

Maybe when we get to the bottom of all these, you'll begin to realise why there isnt a glaringly simple solution that we just need the balls to grab, and that rather, there is a massively extremist solution which should offer some improvement in a certain area at a massive cost.

I really don’t see the cost, massive or otherwise. Is what I am proposing somehow unjust or unreasonable? In fact, I think it improves on our current system in every way:
1. It is cheaper, as the criminals now earn back money for the State.
2. It is better for the victims, as they will be satisfied by a more just punishment.
3. It is better for the criminals, as they will be less likely to reoffend. Knackers commit so much crime because they see no shame in it. Going to prison is almost a rite of passage. I believe slavery is the answer to this because it is a shameful condition to be reduced to. Knackers will then hopefully strive to correct their ways and live better lives.

Turnip

The problem is not just within the prisons, it's the social welfare system. It rewards stupidty. Give more money to working people to enable them to afford to have more children. Cut welfare and discourage the lazy and thick from having their brats. Get rid of John Lonergan from Mountjoy. Ever hear him talking? He's a damned disgrace, a typical dimwitted socialist who refuses to believe that prisoners are responsible for their own actions.

I'm not sure that prisoners should do jobs that earn money and deprive other non-criminals of work. They should do utterly meaningless degrading tasks like shovelling sh*t from one pile to another and back again all day.

RainyDay

Hi Biffa Bacon & Turnip

I can see how your approaches might satisfy your personal needs for vengance, but I really doubt that it will solve our crime problem. Have you any evidence to support your views that these extreme approachs will help?

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I really don’t see the cost, massive or otherwise. Is what I am proposing somehow unjust or unreasonable?

Well, seeing as how we've gone from "knackers should have their rights as citizens revoked and be reduced to the status of slaves.
" to some form of conventional penal servitude with productive labour added in, Im not too surprised that you dont see anything unreasonable.

So, what youre proposing is to call criminals slaves, and to make then do work which generates revenue. Assuming such work exists, and assuming you can force them to do it, and do it well enough to actually make money out of it.

1. It is cheaper, as the criminals now earn back money for the State.

It *may* be cheaper, if you can find work which these people can do where quality control will not be an issue, nor will lack of production, etc. Unless, of course, you would deny them basic human rights (such as food) if they fail to perform to required levels.

2. It is better for the victims, as they will be satisfied by a more just punishment.
3. It is better for the criminals, as they will be less likely to reoffend. Knackers commit so much crime because they see no shame in it. Going to prison is almost a rite of passage. I believe slavery is the answer to this because it is a shameful condition to be reduced to. Knackers will then hopefully strive to correct their ways and live better lives.

So this is both a more just and more shameful punishment. They will be satisfied by its justness, and ashamed by it at the same time? I dunno about you, but these two points strike me as contradictory.

So far, all you have done is modified prison sentences to include hard labour, on the belief that this will somehow make everything different. Oh - and youve used the term slavery instead of internment, because your prisoners are now working. So, other than the change of terminology, we have "make prisoners work" as your comprehensive solution.

This *tiny* change will solve all the evils in our system? Really?

OK...Im willing to believe you for now. Just as soon as you can show me what work these people can do which will be financially profitable. Bear in mind that your first "test cases" will be those very scumbags who you seem to think learn nothing from prison today, and for whom it is practically a rite of passage.

Explain to me how you will make money and reform these people. What can you put in place that will not cost more than you recoup from it? How will this have social benefits?

The simple fact is that it has been shown time and time again, throughout history, that punishment is not a deterrant. Punishment does not have significant effects in reducing crime. You can dispute this all you like, but show me one place where stricter punishments have had a proveable long-term benefit to society.

jc

John2002

I agree with Biffa Bacon. Anyone who commits an offence deserving of a prison sentance should be made to earn their keep. Think of how much money the government spends on building roads which could be saved by forcing the scum of our society to do a bit of honest work for a change. I think the shackles and chains should be brought out, give them shovels and tell the "Get digging".

LFCFan

I've read nearly every post in here. Now I'll give my opinion.

1. Bad Parenting is the number 1 reason for the scumbag element in Ireland today. How come 90% of these little f*ckers are from council estates(I know not all people who live in these estates are bad) who's parents probably had to have their kids just to get more benefits(can't wait to see the reaction from all you social working do-gooders who think these people can change). I'd say this is 60% of the reason.

2. Schools are 20% to blame. Remember that kids spend more time in school then anywhere else so it's here that they need to learn a lot about how to behave in society. You need, not only the parents, but also the teachers to give a sh1t about these kids.

3. There are no deterrants for these young offenders. They know very well that they are gonna get away with whatever they do. I've heard of some 13-17 year olds getting arrested over 50 times but they are repeatadly let out to do more damage. How in gods name are these little sh1ts ever gonna learn. Plus, I've heard of people getting in trouble with the law trying to protect themselves and their property against the scum. So, some little 14 year old breaks your car window to nick your radio. You leg it out and grab him and man handle him a bit. I bet you anything if the Gardai are called the thief will try to press charges for assault against the victim of the theft and suddenly you're the criminal. I say bring back corporal punishment and allow parents to give their kids a clip across the ear and a red backside. It never did me any harm and made me think twice about doing something bold again.(although the boldest thing I can be accused of doing is Knick Knacks). Another 10%.


4. The other 10% is a misture of bad genes, bad influences(caused by the other 90% of reasons) and bad policing.

There are a few things that need to be done IMHO.

1. Legalise Cannabis and Prostitution. This takes the drug dealers and pimps out of the loop. People are gonna get Hash and be able to pay for sex if they want it. At the moment though it's all a very dangerous game and because you have to deal with pushers who are probably selling harder drugs to het your hash you are more likely to go on to harder drugs. It also opens up a whole new area for the government to make some extra Tax revenue on. If it is regulated properly then the Gardai can be freed up to work on more important issues like the Hard Drugs, strreet crime etc.

2. The Drinking laws need to be changed. We need to get more inline with our European Neighbours. People are going out and drinking excesively to get as drunk as possible before the bars close. Then you have a sh1t load of drunks leaving pubs at the same time. Of course there's gonna be trouble. D'ya not think it's a coincidence that Ireland and England both have a problem with drink realated bad behaviour while the rest of Europe are more social drinkers who can go out later and pace themselves when they drink. Pubs need to be allowed to stay open till at least 2 and nightclubs till 6.

3. Zero Tollerance. It works. Just ask any New Yorker. Julliani turned New York around big time from a rat infested, filthy, crime ridden city to a place you can feel safe waling in at night. I was there before zero tollerance and I was there after and the difference is unbelievable. We need a government that aren't afraid to tackle these issues head on and do something about them. I'm afraid Bertie and his muppets are not the ones for the job. Ireland are living in the past and need to wake up and smell the reality of the 21st Century. The old way of 1 cops villages are long gone and we need a massive shake up in the way policing is done in Ireland.

damien_gill

I agree with you totally.

I would love to see some really harsh conditions (before anyone says anything prison conditions in this country are not harsh THEY ARE A JOKE) brought into our prison system. Bread and water as much as they want a day in other words only basic substanence.

Much stricter punishments must be looked at also (A MUCH MILDER FORM BUT SOMEHOW ALONG THE SAME LINES) of punishments that exist in Arab countries. ie. steal something you lose a finger, steal again you lose your other finger on the opposite hand and steal a third time you lose your hands.

Basically wot Im trying to say in a round about way is that the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth policy should be introduced. It should be made clear to criminals that you touch someone and break the law YOUR GONNA GET TOUCHED BACK BY THE LAW IN THE EXACT SAME WAY I believe that this would give criminals second thoughts about re-offending and give victims more vindication instead of the person mugging an old lady getting 6 months and is out after 3 while the old woman now terrified to even walk outside.

PRISONERS HAVE MORE RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY THAN THE VICTIMS

This is a situation in our country that is very, very wrong. I personally know of a case where some b*stard was getting ready to break into my uncles house through a skylight. When he was on top of the skylight he fell through it and broke a collarbone and he SUCCESSFULLY SUED MY UNCLE FOR €10,000 so heres some bastard breaking into a house got injoured and got money for it.

**** ME IF BERTIE & CO CAN ALLOW SITUATIONS TO EXIST LIKE THAT THE WHOLE LOTTA THEM SHOULD GET THE **** OUTTA GOVERNMENT

seamus

Originally posted by LFCFan
1. Bad Parenting is the number 1 reason for the scumbag element in Ireland today. How come 90% of these little f*ckers are from council estates(I know not all people who live in these estates are bad) who's parents probably had to have their kids just to get more benefits(can't wait to see the reaction from all you social working do-gooders who think these people can change). I'd say this is 60% of the reason.

I agree that poor parenting has a lot to do with it. Although, not being a parent yet myself, I don't have experience of it, but at the same time, I'm not biased in favour of parents. Everyone I've known who turned out in some way 'troublesome' or anarchic has had one thing in common: Lethargic or powerless parents. I've seen one guy's Mum scream at him till she's blue in the face, but never once ever carry out any threats, and she'd cave every time he asked for something, or answered her back. Your moral compass is guided mostly by your environment, over which your parents can exercise complete control, at least for the first 12 years. It's no coincidence that there tends to be families of scumbags, or entire 'bad' families. Yes from time to time, there emerges one bad apple in a family, but every child is different, so where one child behaves, another may not respond to the same disciplining.

2. Schools are 20% to blame. Remember that kids spend more time in school then anywhere else so it's here that they need to learn a lot about how to behave in society. You need, not only the parents, but also the teachers to give a sh1t about these kids.

Many children don't suit schooling. No matter how much you try and force some kids, they'll never fit in, in an academic environment. IMO, schools should have less basis on reciting stuff 'by heart' (as is done in most primary school subjects), and more efforts made to make school more practical, ie Teaching them something, and getting them to apply it, not just regurgitate it.......going OT. Specialisation should also occur at a younger age, as in England. By forcing people of 16/17/18 to learn subjects that they've always hated, you're only alienating more kids from school. Point: Allow kids to enjoy learning, instead of having them hate the authoritarian in which they're taught.

3. There are no deterrants for these young offenders. They know very well that they are gonna get away with whatever they do. I've heard of some 13-17 year olds getting arrested over 50 .......................................... It never did me any harm and made me think twice about doing something bold again.(although the boldest thing I can be accused of doing is Knick Knacks). Another 10%.

That's something which our constitution never allowed for. It was never envisioned when it was written that people would kill for no reason, or that kids would go aroudn stealing for no reason. And now the threat of litigation prevents us from protecting our property/lives. IMO, once a person enters your home, they lose all human rights, regardless. They are there to do something to you. IMO, you have every right to take every action necessary to protect your property (inside your own home). Any injuries/death sustained by the offender are all his own fault. I specify the home, because of it's personalness. Someone attacking you in your home is far worse than them attacking you outside. I beleive everyone has the right to a place where they can feel secure. Anyone encroaching on that right, loses all of their's. Strictly IMO. Parents should also be allowed to strike their children, so long as they leave nothing worse than a small bruise.

4. The other 10% is a misture of bad genes, caused by the other 90% of reasons) and bad policing.

Disagree. People are born with certain dispositions to anger, violence, etc, but no-one is born with any morals. There is no such thing as an inherently bad person. Bad policing? Well, more like 'Not enough Police'.

1. Legalise Cannabis and Prostitution.

I wouldn't consider these big issues, but yes they would cut down on wasting police time. But trying to get the current electorate to accept either of these would be impossible.

2. The Drinking laws need to be changed.

People are drinking more, but our laws haven't changed. We need to tackle the reasons why people are drinking more, not try to stop people drinking more. Prevention is better than cure.

3. Zero Tollerance.

Yup.

Biffa Bacon

Get rid of John Lonergan from Mountjoy. Ever hear him talking? He's a damned disgrace, a typical dimwitted socialist who refuses to believe that prisoners are responsible for their own actions.

I agree with that. I’m sure he means well but he has no business being in charge of a prison.

I'm not sure that prisoners should do jobs that earn money and deprive other non-criminals of work.

I agree on that too. They should only do jobs that no one else is being paid to do already. A good idea would be to make them peel old chewing gum from the footpath. It would make our towns and cities much nicer places to live in.

Have you any evidence to support your views that these extreme approachs will help?

No, I’m not a criminologist. I think it would work however because of what I believe to be true about human nature, i.e. people strive to avoid being shamed.

Well, seeing as how we've gone from "knackers should have their rights as citizens revoked and be reduced to the status of slaves.
" to some form of conventional penal servitude with productive labour added in, Im not too surprised that you dont see anything unreasonable.

Well they’re the same thing really. If you force someone to work then they’re a slave.

So, what youre proposing is to call criminals slaves…

Not exactly. Only violent criminals would have to do forced labour.

… and to make then do work which generates revenue. Assuming such work exists, and assuming you can force them to do it, and do it well enough to actually make money out of it.

TBH, the work wouldn’t necessarily have to generate income. Once it was socially useful, that would suffice.

So this is both a more just and more shameful punishment. They will be satisfied by its justness, and ashamed by it at the same time? I dunno about you, but these two points strike me as contradictory.

No, the victims would find it a more just punishment, but the criminals would find it more shameful.

So far, all you have done is modified prison sentences to include hard labour, on the belief that this will somehow make everything different. Oh - and youve used the term slavery instead of internment, because your prisoners are now working. So, other than the change of terminology, we have "make prisoners work" as your comprehensive solution.

This *tiny* change will solve all the evils in our system? Really?

Bonkey, if you’re under the impression that I consider that simply making prisoners work would solve the problem of crime in our society then you’re really not giving me much credit. The nature of the punishment is an important part of society’s response to crime, both for its deterrent effect and for the sense of justice that it gives the victim. In both these respects, I believe that forced labour is preferable to simple incarceration.

Of course, it’s not a “comprehensive” solution. The manner in which it is implemented will have a huge effect on whether it is successful or not. We also need to implement a zero tolerance policy of law enforcement.

The simple fact is that it has been shown time and time again, throughout history, that punishment is not a deterrant. Punishment does not have significant effects in reducing crime.

I don’t believe that for a second.

You can dispute this all you like, but show me one place where stricter punishments have had a proveable long-term benefit to society.

I can’t. Doesn’t mean I doubt that what I am suggesting would prove effective.

Look it, why do you think knackers commit so much crime? BECAUSE THEY LIKE DOING IT AND BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. What we need to do is make sure that knackers start paying for the mess they make of our society. Do you honestly think that if knackers started being punished properly for their crimes, they would keep on committing them? I don’t know bonkey, maybe you’ve been away from Ireland too long but these Untermenschen are absolute vermin, and we need to do something about them.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Bonkey, if you’re under the impression that I consider that simply making prisoners work would solve the problem of crime in our society then you’re really not giving me much credit.

Oh, Im sorry. When you mentioned slavery, work, and "Violent crime in this country would be trivially easy to solve", I assumed that you were telling us that the trivial solution to violent was your slavery proposal.

Obviously "trivially easy to solve" means "can be made better" for you. Unfortunately, I see a solution as something which removes the problem, not which alleviates it to an unquantified degree.

Look it, why do you think knackers commit so much crime? BECAUSE THEY LIKE DOING IT AND BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

Well, Im glad you see it as that transparent and simple a problem. Maybe you should explain this to all the sociologists, criminologists and profilers out there so that they can stop wasting time with all the complexities they think exist.

Look it, why do you think knackers commit so much crime? BECAUSE THEY LIKE DOING IT AND BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. What we need to do is make sure that knackers start paying for the mess they make of our society. Do you honestly think that if knackers started being punished properly for their crimes, they would keep on committing them?

I don’t know bonkey, maybe you’ve been away from Ireland too long but these Untermenschen are absolute vermin, and we need to do something about them.

Anyone who believes in the sub-humanity of the criminal should be prevented from having anything to do with them in my book.

Im just curious...are they subhuman genetically, or sociologically ??? Was it something they were born with, or did society engender it in them?

I would be the first to agree that our system needs reform, but the first reform it needs is that it should be made to work as intended. No more revolving doors in prisons. Consistent sentencing. Sufficient police presence in all areas. Yes, it is expensive....but society pays the cost one way or another anyway.

Our problem is not that our system is wrong, its that our system has been left to fall behind our population, to the extent that we do not have the logistics to make it work the way it is intended to.

If you pick up a 6-month prison sentence, odds are you will be released within a week. This is why people have no respect for the system. If a 6-month sentence actually meant 6 months, then youd find a very, very sharp falloff in crime indeed.

People have no fear of our current system, on this I agree. However, it is not because the system is too soft, it is because the system is powerless to properly enforce its own rules.

jc

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey
Oh, Im sorry. When you mentioned slavery, work, and "Violent crime in this country would be trivially easy to solve", I assumed that you were telling us that the trivial solution to violent was your slavery proposal.

Obviously "trivially easy to solve" means "can be made better" for you. Unfortunately, I see a solution as something which removes the problem, not which alleviates it to an unquantified degree.

:rolleyes:
bonkey, you're driving me frantic with your pedantic antics.

Im just curious...are they subhuman genetically, or sociologically ??? Was it something they were born with, or did society engender it in them?

They are subhuman morally.

I would be the first to agree that our system needs reform, but the first reform it needs is that it should be made to work as intended. No more revolving doors in prisons. Consistent sentencing. Sufficient police presence in all areas. Yes, it is expensive....but society pays the cost one way or another anyway.

Our problem is not that our system is wrong, its that our system has been left to fall behind our population, to the extent that we do not have the logistics to make it work the way it is intended to.

If you pick up a 6-month prison sentence, odds are you will be released within a week. This is why people have no respect for the system. If a 6-month sentence actually meant 6 months, then youd find a very, very sharp falloff in crime indeed.

People have no fear of our current system, on this I agree. However, it is not because the system is too soft, it is because the system is powerless to properly enforce its own rules.

Getting rid of the revolving-door problem is part of the answer. But I maintain that the inappropriateness of the punishment is also part of the problem.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
bonkey, you're driving me frantic with your pedantic antics.

I've no problem with your revised position. Like I said at the start...I had a problem with your initial claims, and I think you'll agree now that they were complete exaggeration.

They are subhuman morally.

I'd ask you to define what is human, then, but you'd only complain about my pedantry again.....

Getting rid of the revolving-door problem is part of the answer. But I maintain that the inappropriateness of the punishment is also part of the problem.

I'd agree that many of our punishments are inappropriate. However, I also believe that your alternatives are equally inappropriate.

For example, you talk about fines for non-violent offenders. Fine...draw the exact legal line between what causes a fine and a prison sentence and watch for the cries of injustice from anyone with a differing opinion. Then consider how to handle those who cant afford the fines they pay when involved in non-violent crime. Now consider how to handle that without having one set of laws for the rich and one for the poor, or having laws which the rich can effectively just ignore.

Ultimately, punishment is a very complex issue. You can try and simplify it all you like, but it just doesnt work like that, unless you want to go to some form of totalitarian regime where all crimes are massively overpunished to keep the population in line through fear. Oh...hang on....they dont work either.

jc

MrPudding

Originally posted by John2002
I agree with Biffa Bacon. Anyone who commits an offence deserving of a prison sentance should be made to earn their keep. Think of how much money the government spends on building roads which could be saved by forcing the scum of our society to do a bit of honest work for a change. I think the shackles and chains should be brought out, give them shovels and tell the "Get digging".

You are, of course, joking. The Irish road building companies, companies who's raison d'etre is to build roads, can't even build roads properly. How the hell to you expect unskilled people, forced against their will to do a job they know nothing about, to do it right?

LFCFan

Originally posted by MrPudding
You are, of course, joking. The Irish road building companies, companies who's raison d'etre is to build roads, can't even build roads properly. How the hell to you expect unskilled people, forced against their will to do a job they know nothing about, to do it right?

They could be made do the crappy work like shovelling and general hard labour. It would never happen though. There'd be too many bloody social workers and morons sticking up for the 'rights' of prisoners. Sorry, but the day someone commits a serious crime their 'rights' should be no longer valid. Why should someone who took someone else life away have any rights anymore.

MrPudding

Originally posted by damien_gill
I agree with you totally.

Much stricter punishments must be looked at also (A MUCH MILDER FORM BUT SOMEHOW ALONG THE SAME LINES) of punishments that exist in Arab countries. ie. steal something you lose a finger, steal again you lose your other finger on the opposite hand and steal a third time you lose your hands.

Let me ask you a few questions. (I’ll kinda answer them as I go)

Q) How long have they been cutting off peoples limbs in Arab countries?
A) Not sure, hundreds if not thousands of years I think.

Q) Do they still do it?
A) Yes

Q) I’m confused, if it is such a good deterrent how come they still have to do it after so long?
A) It doesn’t work, plain and simple.

Lets get hypothetical, let’s imagine we decide to go Biblical on the criminals asses, what would happen? Well for starters I would be on the first plane out of here to a civilised country. (I define civilised by how the State treats its citizens.)

Then, obviously, we would be thrown out of the EU. I know this would make quite a few of you happy but I think that would be a bad thing.

I can’t say for sure but I would imagine that our tourist industry would take a fairly big hit. I would think a lot of people would have a problem visiting a country that cuts off its citizen’s limbs. I base this observation on the fact that I would have a problem with it.

When would you bring in this new “final solution?” Would that be before or after you had completely revamped the police and justice system? I mean we seem to have a lot of trouble putting the right people in prison. It costs a bit to compensate someone for wrongful imprisonment, do you think it would be more expensive to support someone for the rest of their life because you have wrongfully removed their ability to earn their own living. I find it a bit worrying that so many of you are saying how good it would be to cut off peoples limbs for punishment yet none of you seem to be worried about miscarriages of justice.

Here is something that some of you may not like. You do not go to prison to receive punishment, you go to prison as punishment. The punishment of prison if the fact that you are there, you have lost your freedom.

I understand that there are problems. I agree with Bonkey, even though I am still not sure on the effectiveness of prison myself, if prison is given as punishment then 6 months should be 6 months etc etc.

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
No, I’m not a criminologist. I think it would work however because of what I believe to be true about human nature, i.e. people strive to avoid being shamed.

You will not be able to find evidence that your uncivilised ideas will help reduce crime. You will not find this evidence because it does not exist.

Before anyone starts on the old “the scummers are uncivilised” line, that does not and cannot excuse the state from acting in the same way.

MrPudding

Originally posted by LFCFan
Why should someone who took someone else life away have any rights anymore.

Because we have to be better than them.