Violent Street Crime in Dublin

LFCFan

Originally posted by MrPudding
Because we have to be better than them.

So are you saying that murderers, rapist, Paedophiles etc deserve to have the same right as the law abiding people of the country? For me:

1. Murder is murder however you look at it. Unless it was an accident it's murder. People who stab someone 30 times and then get done for manslaughter is a joke. Whether you were off your head on drink or drugs or not should not come into the equation. If you can be that violent at all you deserve to be locked away. Also, Murder should carry a mandatory 30 years in prison without any chance of parole. It's absolutly sickening to see some people out after 5 years of a 'Life' sentence. No wonder there's so much crime when there is feck all deterrant.

2. Rapist and Paedophiles should be chemically castrated(I'd prefer to see the scum physically castrated but that's not gonna happen). There is NO excuse for what these people do. There should also be a mandatory sentence of 10 years for Rape(each count of rape) and 30 years for the sicko paedophiles and again no chance of early release.

3. Prison should be prison. We hear too much these days of prisoners having 3 course meals, TV in their cells, all sorts of activities for them to partake in. Prison should be a deterrant, not a holiday camp. Look at yer one(The Black Widow) from the pub who killer her husband. She's been given all sorts of special treatment by the prison. For f*ck sake, she KILLED someone. She should be locked away for 30 years minimum and kept there, not allowed to have an privaleges.

4. As soon as you reach the age of 16 you should be treated like an adult if you commit a crime. Too many of these scumbag teenagers are getting away with murder(literally) because they are under age. If they are gonna commit crimes like murder, rape, GBH, ABH etc then they should feel the full force of the law, not some pitiful excuse for a childrens court/prison. They should be tagged and put under a curfew when released.

5. Parents should be responsible for what their kids are up to. If a kid under 16 does anything wrong then the parents are held responsible with fines and jail. Maybe that would make them think twice about 'not giving a ****'.

Anyway, these are just some of the things I'd like to see enforced in this sorry excuse for a country.

eth0_

Originally posted by LFCFan

Anyway, these are just some of the things I'd like to see enforced in this sorry excuse for a country.

Are you, by any chance, a regular on the 98fm and fm104 phone shows?

LFCFan

Originally posted by eth0_
Are you, by any chance, a regular on the 98fm and fm104 phone shows?

No way. I am just someone who is sick of seeing my country go down the pan because it's government are too useless and spineless to do anything constructive to curb the violence on our streets. Zero Tollerance is the way for me as well as the things I mentioned in my last post.

MrPudding

Originally posted by LFCFan
So are you saying that murderers, rapist, Paedophiles etc deserve to have the same right as the law abiding people of the country? For me:

1. Murder is murder however you look at it. Unless it was an accident it's murder. People who stab someone 30 times and then get done for manslaughter is a joke. Whether you were off your head on drink or drugs or not should not come into the equation. If you can be that violent at all you deserve to be locked away. Also, Murder should carry a mandatory 30 years in prison without any chance of parole. It's absolutly sickening to see some people out after 5 years of a 'Life' sentence. No wonder there's so much crime when there is feck all deterrant.

I understand what you are saying LFC, I don't like the way people are sentenced and don't serve the sentence. I will stand by my point that going to prison is the punishment, it is the fact that you can no longer have the freedom to decide what you are going to do. The current prison system needs to be fixed before you can start turning it into something else.

I have a major problem with things like chemical castration and the like. The problem with punishments like that is that, in the event of a miscarriage of justice, they cannot be reversed. I have to say that it saddens me to see people asking for things like this when you only have to look at the news to see people being framed for crimes they did not commit so cops could get promotion.

We need to fix the current system before we change to a new one. If the current system was working correctly we may not need to move to the Biffa/Taliban (tm) system of criminal justice.

LFCFan

Originally posted by MrPudding
I have a major problem with things like chemical castration and the like. The problem with punishments like that is that, in the event of a miscarriage of justice, they cannot be reversed. I have to say that it saddens me to see people asking for things like this when you only have to look at the news to see people being framed for crimes they did not commit so cops could get promotion.

Obviously Chemical castration is a serious thing so would only be used against people who have re-offended. There is always the chance of miscarraiges of justice for first time offenders but if a rapist/paedophile is released and then re-offends they should then be chemically castrated. Or maybe it could be, 3 strikes and you lose your balls? What are the chances of getting it wrong 3 times with one person. And this goes for all the sick priests out there too.

Blade

Problem is they can't afford to keep people in prison here. Doesn't it cost something like 60,000 Euro a year to keep 1 prisoner? What it's spent on is beyond me.

The Saint

Maybe if the luxuries were taken out of the prison system it would reduce operating cost and also making them less pleasant places to be, therefore acting as more of a deterant.

damien_gill

You see Im of the opinion that 60,000 grand a year is a tinchey wincy bit too much to be spending per prisoner. Actually it's effing insane. Anyways, if ya think about this logistically (i think thats the correct word) my solution would potentially leave the system spending so much less.

If you actually train the convicts in something they will have something to aim for. Ever hear the saying "AIM AT NOTHING + YOU WILL HIT IT" well thats my synopsis of our prison system.

I spent 6 months in FAS doing a damn good course and I have a good City + Guilds cert now. But my god my whole class took ages to all find jobs (there was only ten of us BTW). What I'm getting at is if I have a good qaulification and I found it hard to get even a ****ty job at first and an ex-con has got none what hope does he ever have of getting out of his cycle.

So therefore if you spent that 60,000 on one prisoner training him while he / she is in prison your giving something to respect about themselves and your giving them a hand up. Also, I'm willing to bet someone who has recieved a good qaulification in prison wont be going back inside. So in the longterm the government saves that 60,000grand a year they would have spent on that prisoner every time he / she re-offended. PLUS HE'S PAYING HIS COSTS BACK BY PAYING TAX.

I think there should be also a few catches to this has well. Firstly, you do not get parole early unless you complete a good course satisfactorily and secondly if you go on this course come outta jail and re-offend your sentence should be doubled automatically for not taking full advantage of the scheme.

Plus I think it's time crime is fought in a different way in this country. I think crime should be prevented not punished. Now I know that didn't make sense but wot Im getting at is after a criminal has been prosecuted and sentenced we should do our utmost to help him / her by counselling (I MEAN PROPER COUNSELLING) and other stuff that I cant think of but I know would help because the person would have more respect for themselves. The alternative is to let the situation fester with their policy of crime detterents / prevention by stiffer sentences just like Fianna Fail are doing now.

WHEN WILL THEY REALISE THAT OUR PRISON SYSTEM JUST DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!!!!!

In closing I would just like to say that of course I realise that there are those who are beyond help and my solution to that class of people is **** THEM THEY DONT WANT THE HELP OR THEY CANT BENEFIT FROM IT SIMPLY **** THEM and leave them to rot. I know that seems harsh but seriously theres no point in trying to help someone who doesn't wanna be helped is there. Why waste resources trying to help someone who doesn't wanna be helped, while someone who wants help has to wait?

Anyway, I'll leave it at that theres a few other things I'd like to say but y'all probably think I'm talking a load of sh1te

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey
Like I said at the start...I had a problem with your initial claims, and I think you'll agree now that they were complete exaggeration.

Well, as you interpreted them they were of course exaggerated but that wasn’t what I meant.

I'd ask you to define what is human, then, but you'd only complain about my pedantry again.....

A human is someone who doesn’t shout racial abuse at complete strangers on the street.
A human is someone who doesn’t steal cars to go joyriding and mow down innocent civilians and gardaí.
A human is someone who doesn’t launch unprovoked physical assaults on other people.
A human is someone who doesn’t terrorise elderly people in their homes for their own amusement.
A human is someone who doesn’t attack animals with fireworks.
A human is someone who doesn’t threaten violence against others when they ask them to refrain from breaking the law.
A human is someone who doesn’t abuse anti-discrimination law for personal profit.
A human is someone who doesn’t turn public or private ground into a rubbish dump.
A human is someone who doesn’t scream obscenities at their children in full public view.
A human is someone who doesn’t vandalise public or private property to relieve their boredom.
A human is someone who does none of these things, for these are the actions of the Knacker.

Fine...draw the exact legal line between what causes a fine and a prison sentence and watch for the cries of injustice from anyone with a differing opinion.

bonkey, the law already draws such distinctions. I don’t hear great cries of injustice from anyone.
But as I’ve already said, in general, violent crimes would result in enslavement while non-violent ones would result in fines.

Then consider how to handle those who cant afford the fines they pay when involved in non-violent crime.

First of all, fines should be linked to income. Second, confiscation of property would be permitted if sufficient money was not forthcoming. Third, arrangements could be agreed whereby the fine would be payable over time.

Ultimately, punishment is a very complex issue. You can try and simplify it all you like, but it just doesnt work like that, unless you want to go to some form of totalitarian regime where all crimes are massively overpunished to keep the population in line through fear.

Just answer me this then: Do you believe that the nature of the punishment (disregarding the rigour of law enforcement and the severity of sentence imposed) that society currently doles out to law-breakers needs reform in any way?

Originally posted by MrPudding
Here is something that some of you may not like. You do not go to prison to receive punishment, you go to prison as punishment. The punishment of prison if the fact that you are there, you have lost your freedom.

You’re damn right I don’t like it. I don’t like that taxpayers’ money is wasted on people who have taken from society and do nothing to contribute anything back. I don’t like the fact that those guilty of the most appalling crimes are allowed to entertain themselves watching television, playing pool or engaging in amateur dramatic societies. I don’t like the fact that prisoners are allowed to reinforce their criminal attitudes by socialising with each other. I don’t like the fact that prisoners have access to drugs and alcohol in prison. I don’t like the fact that prison instills no sense of shame in these people. I don’t like the fact that they are told they are victims of society, not the other way around.

You will not be able to find evidence that your uncivilised ideas will help reduce crime.

And what exactly is “uncivilized” about my ideas? You haven’t seen fit to tell me yet.

Originally posted by LFCFan
Rapist and Paedophiles should be chemically castrated(I'd prefer to see the scum physically castrated but that's not gonna happen). There is NO excuse for what these people do. There should also be a mandatory sentence of 10 years for Rape(each count of rape) and 30 years for the sicko paedophiles and again no chance of early release.

Personally I don’t believe in chemical castration, primarily because it’s not reversible in the case of miscarriages of justice. What I do believe though is that rapists, paedophiles, murderers, kidnappers and armed robbers should simply never be released.

bonkey

Originally posted by damien_gill
If you actually train the convicts in something they will have something to aim for. Ever hear the saying "AIM AT NOTHING + YOU WILL HIT IT" well thats my synopsis of our prison system.

Ah yes, but real reformation/education has never actually been tried largescale, so its obviously a waste of time.
Surely we should instead adopt the same failed measures man has employed for centuries (nay, millenia).


jc

and yes, thats sarcasm

dahamsta

I agree to a certain degree with the hardliners here. If there's one failing in modern democracies, it's the criminal justice systems. We spend more and more on locking people up, yet more and more people commit crime, and spend less and less time serving their sentences. So yes, the system is broken; but no, it can't be fixed in it's current format. It's not as if we haven't tried, but we keep going down the same, liberal paths, and we see no improvement.

The only answer, in my view, is to turn it on it's head. I believe that the only way forward is a massive, once-off investment in the system. Build prisons, give criminals stiff sentences, lock 'em up, leave 'em sweat it out with just the basic human rights. We take the vote off them when they break the law, I don't see why we shouldn't take the televisions and the Happy Meals off them too. Food, water, light, sleep, minimal human contact; and education if they want it.

Build the prisons out in the sticks. Bus the staff and visitors in out of the money you save from taking away the luxuries they don't deserve. In a generation or two, I believe that you'll be able to knock down the old prisons in the cities and sell them to propery developers for big money, and lay off the extra staff. You'll be able to do that because there will be a /tangible/ disincentive, not just an inconvenience, a slap on the wrist.

Of course there should be measures put in place to prevent miscarriages of justice. Of course we shouldn't chemically castrate apparent rapists and child molestors - "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't enough when you're talking about someone's balls, let's be fair - but there has to be a major disincentive to these people, because they're /uncurable/.

So the first batch you lock up for a very, very long time. The next batch will think a little harder before taking it out of their pants. They'll want to, they will at the first available opportunity, but it'll be just that little bit more difficult with harsh disincentives. Maybe enough to stop them. But the system as it is? Pff!

We don't have the money at the moment? Find it. This is important. We can't afford to wait for the next boom, because by the time it comes along, there's a fair chance the criminal justice system will suck in all the money.

I'm a democrat and a liberal, but even liberal democrats have to take a hard line sometimes.

adam

LFCFan

I think it's time for all liberals to start taking a hard line view before the country us over run with bad eggs. There are too many people out there standing in the way of more severe deterrants for would be criminals. It's about time the Government stopped talking and started doing.

Von

My brother's been a prison officer in mountjoy for 13 years. People here have some weird ideas about how prison works. If anyone has any questions, (like, why not lock prisoners up all day?) ask me and I'll pass them on and post up replies. Maybe.

Dr_Teeth

Alright, my questions are:

* How is it possible for drugs and alcohol to exist inside a prison unless security is laughable or the staff are corrupt?

I mean no disrespect to your brother Von, but I just don't understand this.

* Why do prisoners not undertake useful manual labour of some kind?

I would be in favour of the 'chain-gang' style operations as in the states.. even if you can't find something productive for them to do. Just make 'em dig a big hole, then fill it again over and over like in cool hand luke. If you dig you get better food and a reduced sentence. If you don't you get solitary. :P

Years of phyiscal labour, balanced diet, no drugs and an education if they wanted it would I think serve to both punish and reform.

Teeth.

Dr_Teeth

While I'm on the subject.. what would you guys suggest for an improved prison system? I would like to see, assuming the money was available:

1. new secure prisons around the country.
2. hard labour manditory for all inmates phyiscally capable of carrying it out.
3. academic or vocational courses as an alternative to labour, but only if the inmates excelled.
4. minimum jail sentence increased to 1 year.
5. completely drug free (no drink, no drugs, no smokes, no ****ing caffeine nothing!).
6. no visitors.
7. no time off for good behavior.
8. no personal possessions.

I think the drugs thing is really important. So far *all* of the crime I have witnessed in the city centre where I live and work (things that has happened to me, my friends, family, strangers around me) has been drugs-related. It's been either junkie scumbags stealing anything not nailed down, or drunk thugs beating people up.

If these people realise that prison means a minimum of a year of cold turkey for whatever addiction they have (whether the addiction is to a legal substance or not), it will serve as a good deterent.

Teeth.

Von

Haven't talked to the brother about this yet but this is what I know briefly.

Originally posted by Dr_Teeth
Alright, my questions are:

* How is it possible for drugs and alcohol to exist inside a prison unless security is laughable or the staff are corrupt?

The PO's used to jump on anyone they saw being passed drugs but Lonergan stopped it. Tis not considered a good idea to have violence in front of the kids of other prisoners and so on. Now the PO's make a note and do a full strip search after visiting time. The quantities of drugs smuggled in are small so they can be hidden or passed fairly easily. They *could* search prisoners every 15 minutes or something but that would probably mean a breakdown of discipline and an erosion of basic dignity in the place. They've had enough riots and suicides in there as it is.

You can make booze from just about anything. Not even the nazis could stop all kinds of shenanigans going on in their POW camps y'know.

I mean no disrespect to your brother Von,

I hope not, he'd hop the head of you.

* Why do prisoners not undertake useful manual labour of some kind?

Most of the prisoners in mountjoy have behavioural, psychological or addiction problems. Mountjoy is simply not equipped to treat those problems. If swanky rehab clinics like John Of Gods can't manage a decent success rate, I dunno what chance a place like Mountjoy has. Now, my cousin is in jail in England for killing somebody. He was in the gulf war, quit after it was over cos he was disgusted with the whole thing, and then went a bit mental. Digging holes or spending all day locked in a cell won't do him (or the society he'll be released back into) much good.

Victor

I'm surprised at the concentration on punishment here, the first objective MUST be detection - that is where the problem is, everything from traffic offences up to murder must be **raised** with the offender. Cause (crime) must have an immediate effect (punishment) - all too often the punishment doesn't arise or is too late. Put the fear off God into people about being caught, not punished.

Implementing very severe punishments only gives criminals an incentive to use violence to resist and evade getting caught (more victims).

It's quite obvious that the American example (lock them away forever) hasn't worked and that the German one just might (€25 on-the-spot fine for not crossing at the pedestrian crossing).