Sky+

bucks73

Looking at the Sky Customer Channel yesterday and in the products section it gives prices for the Sky+ Digibox (EUR398.00) and the monthly subscription (EUR16.00) put it then goes on to say that it is only available in the UK.

Has anyone heard when it will be available to us here?

ShaneOC

Oh, that sounds like progress. I will have a look at this later on and ring them to see if I can get my Sky+ box activated.

Will let you know what they say.

jez

It sounds like progress in so far as getting it here in Ireland goes.
But I'll tell you what . It sounds expensive to me..At this rate it'll cost more to watch the telly than to feed and clothe yourself!!

ShaneOC

It may sound dear but it is similar enough to what the folks in the UK are paying. The box was £300 (Stg) when it was initially released, that translates to approx €500. There are now offers that enable you to get it for £250. Again that works out at just over €400, so €398 is about right.

The monthly charge is also about right. £10 ~ €16.

JDxtra

Why anybody in there right mind would pay Sky another €16 for the pleasure of using a Sky+ box is beyond me!

ShaneOC

Never said I was in my right mind

Anyway I think it is worth the extra. Watch one channel while recording another, live pause, watch the start of a recording while still recording.

JDxtra

I don't doubt that the service is fantastic - but I think Sky have a cheek to charge for it after you have forked out for the box.

I see it as being no more than an extension of the regular EPG - so it baffles me as to why you have to pay an extra charge to use it.

watty

Originally posted by ShaneOC
Never said I was in my right mind

Anyway I think it is worth the extra. Watch one channel while recording another, live pause, watch the start of a recording while still recording.

Without A Sky+ box:
If you like you can pay me only 8 Euro a month. For that I will provide you with listings, ensure you can record one program while watching another, pause playback, record favorite shows while away etc. If you cancel you must promise to stop looking at RTE guide and cut the flex off your VHS.

If you buy a Sky+ the cost to view should be exactly the sameas an ordinary Digibox or a second box, depending if a Sky+ is a second box or the only box. Anything else is a rip off. The quoted Sky+ costs are on top of existing package price. If you want to keep ordinary digibox too, it needs a second subscription or FTV card.

Even with a FTV card in UK a Sky+ box is a doorstop without a subscription. The Tivo is even worse. (I tested a Tivo here for two weeks with a trail subscription, offically, via a special dialup gateway number in Dublin)

My FTA Satellite receiver records for free. The Gypsy media "digiguide" listings service is optional and costs SEVEN EURO A YEAR!

Tivo and Sky+ are a rip off.

irishgeo

how do i get on to this tivo trial

ShaneOC

Originally posted by watty
Without A Sky+ box:
If you like you can pay me only 8 Euro a month. For that I will provide you with listings, ensure you can record one program while watching another, pause playback, record favorite shows while away etc. If you cancel you must promise to stop looking at RTE guide and cut the flex off your VHS.

While I appreciate that there are other ways to get the functionality of Sky+ I don't think it is possible to record one Sky channel and watch another unless you have a Sky + box.

I'm not condoning this I just think that there is no way around it.

Originally posted by watty
If you buy a Sky+ the cost to view should be exactly the sameas an ordinary Digibox or a second box, depending if a Sky+ is a second box or the only box. Anything else is a rip off. The quoted Sky+ costs are on top of existing package price. If you want to keep ordinary digibox too, it needs a second subscription or FTV card.

I agree whole heartedly. It would be lovely to be able to get the recording ability without having to pay anything extra. Unfortunately it does not look like this is going to be the case. You are not forced to upgrade to Sky+. It is an additional service available if you want it, so I don't think you can call it a rip off.

By the way I think that the lack of a mirror subscription over here is pure greed on Sky's part and I have mentioned it many times in the past.

Originally posted by watty
Even with a FTV card in UK a Sky+ box is a doorstop without a subscription. The Tivo is even worse. (I tested a Tivo here for two weeks with a trail subscription, offically, via a special dialup gateway number in Dublin)

Without the Sky+ subscription the Sky+ box fuctions almost exactly the same as a regular digibox. The only plus side is the Dolby digital output on Premiere widescreen, the downside is that the Autoview feature is not supported.

Originally posted by watty
My FTA Satellite receiver records for free. The Gypsy media "digiguide" listings service is optional and costs SEVEN EURO A YEAR!

The digiguide is very good value. I use it myself. However, I tend to use the EPG as much as it because I am not always near the PC.

Originally posted by watty
Tivo and Sky+ are a rip off.

Nobody is forcing you to get them.

P.S. If it sounds like I am defending Sky then I apologise. God knows that I have as many gripes with them as most other people. I have been trying to get my Sky+ box activated for over a year. I'm just glad to see a bit of progress on the issue.

dmeehan

if you do not have the sky+/tivo subscription is the sky+ a waste?
would you not even be able to "pause live tv" etc..

?

ShaneOC

Yes it is a bit pointless having the Sky+ box without the Sky+ subscription. There is no recording functionality enabled at all (so no live pause). The only bonus is the Dolby Digital sound on Premiere widescreen.

watty

It is frustrating being treated as the poor cousin of UK in regard of Tivo, Sky+, ADSL etc.

I think it would only have been in their own commercial interest to support Tivo and Sky+ here as well as UK from day1. It is just ineptitude.

Of course you should be able to use your Sky+ box.

VHS would never have taken off if you had to have a subscription as well as TV licence. I just think Sky+ owners are being asked to pay twice. Paying for the box and normal package OR pay extra and don't own the box like cable, but to buy box AND pay a prem ium when it costs sky the same as an ordinary subcriber seems like exploiting monoploy position that no non-sky hard disk Satellite receiver can even get any sky subscription.

Sky you be "forced" by EU competion to either:
Sell CAM & subscription to CI Satellite receiver owners
OR
Allow manufacturers to sell an approved Digibox with whatever Extra features the manufacturer wants (SPID, S-Video, Component Video, DVD player, built in to a TV, hard disk or DVD recorder (with Sky approved copy protection etc), CI slot, embedded viacess or Seca2 as well as videoguard.

Sky is altogther to restrictive and is in too much of a monopoly position though having said that:
Sky in ROI for Discovery & Animal Planet = 22Euro approx
Chorus MMDS Discovery & Animal Planet = 38 Euro approx (and you never own the box and there are never FTA channnels)

Fortunately in ROI the majority of Sky competion is Cable rather than DMMDS, which is half the price of Sky family pack!

ShaneOC

Originally posted by watty
It is frustrating being treated as the poor cousin of UK in regard of Tivo, Sky+, ADSL etc.

Tell me about it.

See this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47622

watty

Thanks shane OC for link...
Meanwhile on my PC based Satellite Receiver I can read all the Irish Teletext pages, and record the Satellite data as is for perfect play back later of:
All the Sky FTA (not FTV) TV and Radio
Main Italian & German Terresterial stations.
BBC World TV, DW TV, Arriang TV, Ebs TV etc etc ...

You have my sympthy.

Meanwhile out of priciple I REFUSE to pay for Irish TV. My "B" digibox sticks at ROI Knowledge pack. (I'm not paying for Irish TV on my "A" digibox either!)

Mossy Monk

€16 on top of the €60 i already pay. then it is compulsory to have it connected to a phone line at all times. feck off Sky. i'm paying enough as it is. i'd be better off with another box and FTV card

Charles Slane

Although I have my doubts that I will actually get Sky+, I think it should definitely be made available to Sky customers here.

Who knows, maybe Sky will see the error of their ways and eventually make it subscription-free.

ShaneOC

I rang Sky last night to ask about the Euro prices on the customer channel. The first thing that was said was that Sky+ is not available in the Republic. When I explained that there are now Euro prices quoted on the Products section of the Sky Customer channel she went off and spoke to someone in the Sky+ department. She returned and said that it is not yet available but they are working on it and it will be available soon. I asked her if she could elaborate on soon, but unfortunately she couldn't.

The Sky magazine arrived this morning. Did not get a chance to look at it yet but there was a load of blurb on interactive services. I suppose it would be too much to expect some news on Sky+ in the magazine.

Tony

Originally posted by Charles Slane
Although I have my doubts that I will actually get Sky+, I think it should definitely be made available to Sky customers here.

Who knows, maybe Sky will see the error of their ways and eventually make it subscription-free.

The subscription is a marketing deision to bring the cost of the box down, originally it was propsed by pace to sell at IR800. I would have preferred that they sell at market value without any further charges and let customers decide, after all if you pay subs for a few years you will end up paying more. It has also generated a lot of bad publicity which in my opinion has overshadowed the benefits of this product.

Tony

doh.ie

Could of bits on all of this.

* You _can_ have Tivo in Ireland no problem, and it works well, but you'd have to go through a UK friend/relative when it comes to the subscription. (I'd loath giving them more than they deserve, so I opted for the lifetime. At least that way it's technically paid for in under two years.) Unbeatable.co.uk are selling them for just £98. Total cost £98 + £199 lifetime sub.

* More important thing is that Tivo (not Sky+) will let you dial up using UUNET pop numbers. This can be done so simply, it's hilarious! It's just a Dublin 01 number! And others exist for Cork and Galway.

* Sky+ needs to be connected to phone line. A UK one, obviously, so this can't be gotten around.

* Tivo is customised for BSkyB Eire (as they call it), which means RTE1, NET2 are there, BBC1/2 on 214/5, so no need for FTV card swapping (except for Choice, BBC4, ITV1 etc.) TV3 & TG4 listings are not supported, but you can do manual setups. I have my FTV box set up as an RF channel for BBC Choice, 4, C4, C5 etc, so every base is covered.

>It has also generated a lot of bad publicity which in my opinion >has overshadowed the benefits of this product.

I completely agree. I was so against this subscription, I swore I never would. But Tivo is an amazing product, and I now watch less TV because I spend less time flipping through different channels looking for what I want. Tivo already knows and gets them for me!

This technology is definitely the way forward for television recording, and suffice it to say, it's been weeks since I last used my VCR.

Anyway, to those yearning for Tivo/Sky+, you at least know one of them will work here...

ShaneOC

Originally posted by doh.ie
* Sky+ needs to be connected to phone line. A UK one, obviously, so this can't be gotten around.

Anyway, to those yearning for Tivo/Sky+, you at least know one of them will work here...

Sky+ does not need to be connected to a phoneline to work. It gets the program information via the satellite exactly the same as the regular digibox. The phoneline (both UK and Irish) is used for interactive services again exactly like the regular digibox.

I have spoken to a technical supervisor at Sky who told me that there is no technical reason for Sky+ not to work here in Ireland. All they have to do is set some flag on your account.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by ShaneOC
Sky+ does not need to be connected to a phoneline to work

true but Sky insist on it being connected to a phoneline

bucks73

Originally posted by doh.ie
Could of bits on all of this.

* You _can_ have Tivo in Ireland no problem, and it works well, but you'd have to go through a UK friend/relative when it comes to the subscription. (I'd loath giving them more than they deserve, so I opted for the lifetime. At least that way it's technically paid for in under two years.) Unbeatable.co.uk are selling them for just £98. Total cost £98 + £199 lifetime sub.

* More important thing is that Tivo (not Sky+) will let you dial up using UUNET pop numbers. This can be done so simply, it's hilarious! It's just a Dublin 01 number! And others exist for Cork and Galway.

* Sky+ needs to be connected to phone line. A UK one, obviously, so this can't be gotten around.

* Tivo is customised for BSkyB Eire (as they call it), which means RTE1, NET2 are there, BBC1/2 on 214/5, so no need for FTV card swapping (except for Choice, BBC4, ITV1 etc.) TV3 & TG4 listings are not supported, but you can do manual setups. I have my FTV box set up as an RF channel for BBC Choice, 4, C4, C5 etc, so every base is covered.

>It has also generated a lot of bad publicity which in my opinion >has overshadowed the benefits of this product.

I completely agree. I was so against this subscription, I swore I never would. But Tivo is an amazing product, and I now watch less TV because I spend less time flipping through different channels looking for what I want. Tivo already knows and gets them for me!

This technology is definitely the way forward for television recording, and suffice it to say, it's been weeks since I last used my VCR.

Anyway, to those yearning for Tivo/Sky+, you at least know one of them will work here...

The main advantage of Sky+ though is that you can record one channel while watching a different channel on Sky Digital due to the two tuners. No other device can perform this.

If you wanted to just record digitally surely the way to go would be a hard disk recorder. The latest models are around GBP500.00 and falling. All too often I have had programmes clashing (especially last winters Thursday nights) and the only way around it was repeats on E4 or Sky1.

Im still not sure if I will go for it but I am very tempted.

ShaneOC

Bucks,

Ring them up and ask about the availability over here. It would be interesting to see what the story is for potential new customers.

watty

Tivo:
Decent record time is worse quality than my VHS (artifacts).
Needs phone for listings.
More likely to go belly up than Sky.
If recording Sky, potentally even worse quality due to re-encoding artifact problem.
Won't allow "custom" TV frequencies. It decides what channels are which stations.
Yes it will connect via Dublin number. That is how I tested it for two weeks.
The family HATED the way it would gratuitously change channel to record something off the Digibox.
The Family hated it and cheered as the body was carried out after two weeks.
Plus: It is Linux so if you very expert you can change bits
Cons: Not really as the programs ar compilied and Linux is a Life Hobby and not for ordinary members of Family.
It has one tuner so can only "pause" what is recording.

Sky+:
It get listings same as ordinary Digibox, via Satellite
The Signal is conviently already digital so no degradation of quality. You use the broadcasters really good MPEG coder instead of the c**p on in the Tivo.
It has two "tuners". In theory a later SW download will let you record two programs at the same time, as long as you are prepared to watch either or none. The disk is fast enough to record both tuners and play back a 3rd program. The HW can support this.

The only extra bits in a Sky+ essentially are the Hard Disk and a second tuner. It still has only one videoguard decoder and only one MPEG2 decoder and only one Digital to anlog to PAL video convertor. Since it has no need of MPEG coder or Video to Digital convertor it can be made cheaper than a Tivo.

The disk has the satellite data (as per my PC based recording). It is also simply encrypted, so even a FTA channel recording can't be easily (I'm sure it can eventually be do) lifted from Hard Disk to CDR or DVDR in a PC like Tivo can. For FTV or pay channels the recording needs to be played back via the Videoguard embedded CAM and Sky viewing card anyway.

Votes out of ten on Design:
Tivo= 1 Sky+ = 10

Votes out of ten on idea of monthly sub:
Tivo = 3
Sky+ = 1 (You paying for SKY EPG already!)

Votes out of ten Life time Sub:
Tivo = 6 (Still phone cost and what if Tivo go belly up?)
Sky+= 0 (You can't get a Zero sub, not even for FTV only).

So only issue with Sky+ is the extra per month over FTV or ordinary sub. The design and concept is excellent. If there was no extra sub I would get one (After the kitchen floor, new fridge, new freezer, etc etc) Eventually it ought to be only about €150 more expensive than ordinary Digibox. The only significant extra cost is the Disk.

Irulan

I dont think Sky+ has been very successful in Britain, and I cant see it been very successful over here, if Sky are charging €16.00 a month for the privelige of having one. Repeats are so regular [ with the exception of Box Office events ] that recording a second chanell is no big deal. That only leaves pausing live tv as an extra benefit. One could have two extra stand alone channels for €16.00 a month. I know what I would choose if I was willing to part with an extra €16.00.

speedfreak

Philips have a hard disc recorder on their site. Wonder how much that costs...?

doh.ie

> Decent record time is worse quality than my VHS (artifacts).

I admit the lowest setting can have some bad artifacting, but I have only received excellent recordings on High and Best quality settings.

> Needs phone for listings.

One local call a day, for about three to five minutes.

> More likely to go belly up than Sky.

But I imagine someone, maybe Sky, would step in. Tivo could even have its software adapted to read Sky's EPG.

>If recording Sky, potentally even worse quality due to re->encoding artifact problem.

I agree the possibility is there, but it hasn't been my experience.

> Won't allow "custom" TV frequencies. It decides what channels > are which stations.

True, but I have added UHF RTE1, Net2, TV3, TG4 frequencies and labelled them for manual recordings. That said, it cannot receive listings for them.

I have, however, been able to customise the manual recordings for an FTV digibox, and it recognises 160, 161, 103, 104, 105 as channels on that box only. (Though I may need an RF remote controller device, as otherwise a 103 (ITV1) change will move Sky (Ireland) digibox to TV3...

>The family HATED the way it would gratuitously change channel >to record something off the Digibox.

Not if the suggestions are set to off. Though, that said, this is one of its plusses over Sky+. It can record programmes it believes you to live, or record based on keywords or actors (wishlists). I usually leave this function on, only disabling it when I want to channel-hop. It won't change channels on you if you tell it not to.

> The Family hated it and cheered as the body was carried out
> after two weeks.

Matter of opinion. Most of the UK and US users with it would never go back to conventional VCRs.

> It has one tuner so can only "pause" what is recording.

True, a drawback. But as others have pointed out, most programmes which conflict with others are repeated. Tivo even hunts these out during detected recording conflicts. And with Tivo, since you watch less TV overall (less time channel hopping), one tuner is really all you need.

Its plus is that you can watch a programme recorded during the day, or earlier in the week while the machine records another programme at the same time.

> It get listings same as ordinary Digibox, via Satellite

Which is just as it should be. But not at a cost of €16!

At least with Tivo, once you're on a lifetime sub, after the first 18 months, this is no longer an issue. Otherwise, it is just money into Sky's coffers. At their most recent financial report, Sky's subscriber chiefs spoke of their plan to ensure all subscribers are paying at least £400 a year to the company, if not more.

Sky+ is just another way of getting this cash, but in this case for little product.

I suppose with Tivo when the phone calls get listings, channel highlights, actor and genre wishlists and other specialised functions, you think you're getting *something* for your UK£10!

Anyway, don't want to come across like the Tivo-obsessives you see on other forums, but suffice it to say, if this becomes available in Ireland (or even if it doesn't, since it clearly works), I'd advice interested techies with cash to spare to seriously consider one...

The biggest plus of all is that the money doesn't go to Sky!

bucks73

Originally posted by speedfreak
Philips have a hard disc recorder on their site. Wonder how much that costs...?

Saw that too but couldnt find it on sale anywhere. Even the Philips website couldnt give a list of dealers in Ireland that supply it.

Did find a JVC HD/VHS combi here though. Little bit pricey at GBP750.00.

watty

Tivo is precisely a concept (and it is more a concept than a product), that everyone will either LOVE or Loathe

Sky+ is a more neutral product. In the future almost every consumer video / audio "living" room device will either have a Hard Disk or a connector for a HD cartridge. Any Digital TV tuner can have a HD Cartridge slot NOW on new designes for only a few euros on cost.

Tivo don't sell boxes. Sony, Thomson etc sell the "tivo" recorders. Tivo are a "listings" company.

Both Sky and Tivo are very expensive compared with Gypsy Media.

In long term UK DTT and DVBs generally will have Hard Disk recording as a fairly standard option. In long term even DVD recorders are more likely to be incorporated into Digital tuners than the other way round.

People with UK FTV DTT or FTV DVBs ("Sky") are not going to pay for Tivo or Sky+ subscriptions.

In US tivo is now or shortly incorporated into a DirecTV satellite receiver. I don't know if sub is still to Tivo or the DirecTV subscriptions.

Sky did marketTivo before Sky+. They won't ever again nor allow a Tivo / Sky box.

Anyone know what happened with proposed Nokia UK DTT with Hard Disk?

Sony is releasing HD and tuner for PS2.It not clear if the HD is for the Tuner or just for the now available Internet/LAN addon.

Microsoft is releasing a home PVR/ media center. It won't have a "digital" tuner. It is either derived from Multimedia XP PC or from XBox (not much difference!).

TV/Radio cards are now available for Analog, Satellite, UK DTT, UK DAB that have full PVR software and allow full transmitted quality to be recorded.

Tivo being "trapped" in Analog in UK/Ireland is looking a bit "long in tooth".
For "proper" Sky pay TV or FTV (rather than FTA only), the Sky+ is best solution, unfortuately overpriced in subscription.
For Analog and FTA satellite there are lots of products that make Tivo look a bit expensive to run and a bit limited.
(It is ALSO *BBIIGG* )

doh.ie

> For "proper" Sky pay TV or FTV (rather than FTA only), the Sky+ > is best solution, unfortuately overpriced in subscription.

Tivo seems to get along quite well with my FTV box, in addition to an Irish Sky subscription...

> For Analog and FTA satellite there are lots of products that
> make Tivo look a bit expensive to run and a bit limited.

Maybe, but even with a fast computer, I have never found TV tuner cards to be able to record to the level of quality Tivo can. ShowShifter and other programmes may be able to promise the earth, but in my experience, they cannot deliver. (At least not to the Tivo quality standard.)

In any case, if you just have a regular aerial or FTA, Tivo would be largely pointless. I see its purpose as being able to scan the multitude of channels you don't have time to watch to pick out documentaries/programmes/movies based on keywords.

If you're just talking FTA/aerial, stick with a VCR.

I see the whole point of PVRs not for recording, but for saving time - finding programmes you like when you're out and recording them and recording programmes you've spotted and are keen on. It's this functionality - the user preferences - that make it more than just a video machine. I'm sure other users would agree that it's this added level of interactivity that make it more than Sky+ in terms of what it can do.

> (It is ALSO *BBIIGG* )

I'll give you that. It is!

watty

True you need a VERY high spec PC and Tuner card for better than VHS recording of ANALOG on a PC.

For Analog you would want a professional Video Edit analog in /out card with DV codec. A WinTV card is very hard to get going at better than VHS qulaity and also you need a very highend PC to compress decently on the fly.

However any Highend Digital tuner card (Digital Cable, Satellite or DTT) will give record of signal & playback to regular TV in same as original reception quality on as little as a P120 with minimum of 8G IDE disk. I have a 20G and 60G disks in a P233 running XP. (704 x 576 recording). I can save recordings on CDR in SVCD (480 x576) quality to play on ordinary DVD player. If I had a DVDR drive I could save recordings in original quality.

The SVCD is better on my 29" TV than VHS or Tivo playback. (But not better than S-VHS playback).

You can't tell that HD playback of BBCWorld, TCM or ITV2 *is* play back. Infact it is exact copy of Satelllite Digital streams!

On the other hand a 850MHz PIII with WinTV card (analog) can only do 384 x 288 recording perfectly.

irishgeo

Since this contains Digiguide info.

Any word on digiguide 6 .

I got an email saying it will be releasedd this week. Any further updates

ShaneOC

The Euro pricing information has been removed from the products section on the customer channel.

MrPudding

I have a quick question. I have a *friend* who lives in Dublin but has an NI sub. Does anyone know what the story would be for him getting Sky+?

irishgeo

He would have to buy it in England and perhaps get some installer to install it for him but i think he should be ok. I cant be sure.

Maybe i should have followed my own sig on this one

Timmy

Gentlemen

FYI, the TIVO box will not allow for changes in viewing times, ie if a game goes into extra time it will not compensate however the Sky+ will.

ShaneOC

Originally posted by MrPudding
I have a quick question. I have a *friend* who lives in Dublin but has an NI sub. Does anyone know what the story would be for him getting Sky+?

I do not know how strict Sky are regarding the phone connection with regards to Sky+.

robert muldoon

I must say I think Sky+ has a lot going for it- It seems very user friendly. You cant use video plus with sky digital, so it takes a lot of the hardship out of recording

Irulan

Do you have to get a new sat dish or lnb to receive Sky +?
or is it just the box?

Originally posted by Irulan
Do you have to get a new sat dish or lnb to receive Sky +?
or is it just the box?

A new lnb comes with the sky+ box, which you will have to exchange for your old one, it's to allow the recording receiver to get sky as well as the normal tuner.
mm

ShaneOC

The LNB that comes with the Sky+ box is a quad LNB. As Man has said, the sky+ box needs two of the feeds. You can connect up your old box to a feed and still have a spare one for whatever Sky plan to offer us in the future.

irishgeo

You have to get a new quad LNB a new box and i think a new dish. its not avilable in ireland anyway.

ShaneOC

Originally posted by irishgeo
You have to get a new quad LNB a new box and i think a new dish. its not avilable in ireland anyway.

There is no need to get a new dish. The single LNB comes off and the quad one goes back on the end of the satellite arm in it's place.

Originally posted by ShaneOC
You can connect up your old box to a feed and still have a spare one for whatever Sky plan to offer us in the future.

sky has plans for us...oh I love it when people are optimistic:D
mm