Meeting with Dermot Ahern - Report

SkepticOne

Meeting with Minister Ahern, Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources.

29 October 2002.

Attending:

IrelandOffline: David Long (Chairman), Michael Megan.

Department: Minister Dermot Ahern, Ciarán O Cuinn (Special Adviser), Ann Walsh (DCMNR).

The meeting focused on the recent announcement by the Minister concerning the policy directive to be issued after the new Commission for Communications Regulation is formed.

After the Commission is set up, a draft directive will be issued under the Communications Act (2002) directing the Commission to implement FRIACO within a given time-scale (most likely three to four months). After the draft directive is issued, there will be a public consultation period of 21 days following which the directive will come into force.

We were concerned about the possibility that the Commission might not have adequate powers to implement FRIACO, however it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

yellum

Originally posted by SkepticOne

however it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

... and will never be used

vinnyfitz

So as we guessed the press release saying he had issued it allready was wrong.

More importantly a few questions about how this will work out:
Will IOFFL be given a copy as soon as the regulatory commission gets it?
Who organises the consultation - the commission or the Department?
If it is the Department should we assume that after the 21 days they will have to think about the reponses before issuing final instructions to the regulatory commission? So when will the commisison really be put on the spot?
If, on the other hand it is the Commission that organises the consultation, - how long can they sit on the Minister's instructions before starting the consultation period?

In either case will the responses to the consultation be public documents? Will they be published immediately and on-line?

How long does the Minister feel is a reasonable time between the legal instruction to offer the product and the day by which it must be offered? 1 day would perhaps not be fair but 1 year would be appalling!

Will operators be required to offer the product nationwide?

Does the Minister intend to define "affordable" as part of his instruction or might we end up with a flat rate product costing e.g. €150 a month?

Sorry for so many questions immediately on top of the good work but I'm just suggesting things that should be in IOFFL's response to the consultation.

Dustaz

Originally posted by SkepticOne


After the Commission is set up, a draft directive will be issued under the Communications Act (2002) directing the Commission to implement FRIACO within a given time-scale (most likely three to four months). After the draft directive is issued, there will be a public consultation period of 21 days following which the directive will come into force.

Sounds great. Did it seem that they were actually serious about following up on it?

This however is much more interesting :

We were concerned about the possibility that the Commission might not have adequate powers to implement FRIACO, however it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers[ and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

Uhh, what now? Havent the ODTR always said that they DIDNT have the power to enforce FRIACO and they must wait for the "breakdown in communications" before they could even think about starting to step in and help.

yellum

Did you press the Minister on any matters or follow any of the suggestions in this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66931

Or did you just stare open mouthed in front of a real gee whiz minister and listen to him spin another yarn from the same old material ? Next time bring Vinny Fitz with you...

Dustaz

Yellum, What is that supposed to mean?

After more than a year involved in Ireland Offline, I think those present at the meeting were capable of handling the meeting perfectly well. Its not thier first meeting with a minister remember.

Maybe rather than our Chairman, youd prefer Paddy20 to meet the minister on behalf of Ireland Offline?

*edit* Vinny, thats not a dig at you at all, just in case it could be construed that way

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
Did you press the Minister on any matters or follow any of the suggestions in this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66931

Or did you just stare open mouthed in front of a real gee whiz minister and listen to him spin another yarn from the same old material ? Next time bring Vinny Fitz with you...

I'll ignore the ignorant remark but say that a lot of the stuff on that thread has been raised with the Department before. We chose to concentrate FRIACO announcement since we only had a short time in the meeting.

We already know, for example, that the fibre rings project will not deliver the promised results for example. We have communicated our opinions on this on previous occasions.

Now, I don't know if Ahern is telling the truth here. I'm making no claims.

You however claim to know he is lying. Fine. I presume this is not just your opinion but that you have evidence to back this up. If so lets hear it.

vinnyfitz

I think Dangger and ScepticOne are by far the best people to represent us all.

dahamsta

Well, I'm a wee bit skeptical, but that's nothing new. Oddly though, that's the reason I'm skeptical: Skeptic One's report is a repitition of the Ministers announcement the other day. So, nothing new here. Least of all the most basic and important piece of information that should have been garnered: When? I know the Commission's going to be set up, but it's all very open-ended, all very convenient. WHEN is it going to be set up?? I can only assume that you asked such an obvious question, so I'm confused as to why the answer isn't reported here. Please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's an oversight.

adam /who's feeling right bitchy this evening

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
WHEN is it going to be set up?? I can only assume that you asked such an obvious question, so I'm confused as to why the answer isn't reported here. Please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's an oversight.

Before the commission is set up, the people taking up positions as commissioners have to accept their posts and give notice. The sooner they do this, the sooner the commission is set up. This has been in the newspapers already.

adam /who's feeling right bitchy this evening

dahamsta

Before the commission is set up, the people taking up positions as commissioners have to accept their posts and give notice. The sooner they do this, the sooner the commission is set up.

Ah, so it /is/ open ended then. There's no deadline for responses, there's no set date for the positions to be filled? Isn't that kind of important Mike?

This has been in the newspapers already.

I know. That's my point: Nothing new. Let's look at your report:

The meeting focused on the recent announcement by the Minister concerning the policy directive to be issued after the new Commission for Communications Regulation is formed.

That's good, but obviously nothing new.

After the Commission is set up, a draft directive will be issued under the Communications Act (2002) directing the Commission to implement FRIACO within a given time-scale (most likely three to four months). After the draft directive is issued, there will be a public consultation period of 21 days following which the directive will come into force.

Neither is this. We know this.

We were concerned about the possibility that the Commission might not have adequate powers to implement FRIACO, however it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

And you were right to be concerned, and you had even more of a right to go effing spastic when the Minister said that the ODTR had the power to mandate FRIACO. Yet the report finishes here? You didn't rip his head off and serve it to him on a platter?

I'm sorry guys, I don't mean to be negative, but unfortunately it's hard to do be positive when I can't /see/ anything positive, and absolutely /nothing/ solid is being put forward. You guys met with the Minister, cool, but the question remains: Exactly what's he going to do, and when?

Save the Mary O'Rourke crap, I want committments. That's all we we all want. What committments did you get?

adam

DonegalMan

Originally posted by yellum
...

Yellum, ignoring its offensiveness, that has to be one of the most stupid, pointless remarks I have ever seen here from a 'seasoned' poster.

The IOFFL committe have held their own with the top guys in the telco's, ODTR and DOE - also this is the second successive Minister IOFFL have met.

Do you really think it would serve a useful purpose to bombard the Minister with a load of detailed questions that he probably wouldn't even understand, never mind know the answers to?

These meetings are all about creating a presence, the Minister now knows there is an active, educated group out there who will be watching his every move.

Even more important (from our point of view) than the Minister are the Department Officials who were there - these are the people who really make things happen.

I know nothing more than what was posted here but I'll bet my last euro that there will be ongoing contact between the committee and those officials.

You should also bear in mind that IOFFL never report every detail of these meetings, this is so that IOFFL can build trust with the people they meet and they will then talk more freely about what is happening behind the scenes.

Well done yet again, Dave and Mike.

Dustaz

Originally posted by dahamsta
Save the Mary O'Rourke crap, I want committments. That's all we we all want. What committments did you get?

Did you think the minister was going to promise FRIACO by 22nd January 2003, around teatime ? Did you want him to tell you that you would have fibre into your home next year? Any commitment any politician gives isnt usually very rock solid. Id MUCH rather IOFFL simply met with a minister and made him as aware is is possible for the various aspects of the issues while also garnering as much information as possible from him regarding his plans.

If what is printed above is all that was got, then so be it, would you like them to have jumped up and down and called him a "BIG FAEG LOSAR"?

Im pretty sure there was things discussed that isnt in what Skeptic posted. Since im also pretty sure that there isnt any specifics in there, im not sure it matters.

spongebob

no surprises there

we dont know when the 2 new commissioners can start, id say 3 months notice so around end Jan 2003 we should have a commission to appoint.

then the directive may be issued.

then the 21 day period

then the reply to consultation ...due consideration and all that.

that takes us to END FEB 2003 and all we have is a legally valid directive to the Commission to seek Flat-Rate as a policy objective

then we start into meetings with the Rat and yadda yadda yadda

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta Ah, so it /is/ open ended then. There's no deadline for responses, there's no set date for the positions to be filled? Isn't that kind of important Mike?

Yes. The whole thing depends on the Commission being formed. Unfortunately, it is not known when this will be at this time.

From the press release:

"The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Dermot Ahern TD, today announced that he was directing the Commission for Communications Regulation to introduce flat rate internet access as an absolute priority."

We already knew that this would depend on the commission being set up before we went into the meeting. Our concern was that the above could be interpreted as directing the commission to simply prioritise flat-rate. In which case, the commission could say that they are already doing so by facilitating negotiations between the various parties. They could further maintain that this is the extent of their powers.

This is not the case. There will be a set timescale for the introduction of FRIACO, which does not depend on negotiations etc. at the end of which, FRIACO will be implemented. There will be no choice in the matter. Furthermore, it will not depend on the Commission's interpretation of the law. If Eircom don't like it, they can take the Commission to court like they did with LLU.

All this follows from the meeting report. It does not follow from the initial press release.

Concerns about delays in the setting up of the commission remain.

The other concern is that the Minister and staff present were lying through their teeth and don't really intend to do any of this. Yellum suggests, for example, that the commissions powers won't be used. This is a possibility but I think we would need some evidence to support this.

Dangger

then we start into meetings with the Rat and yadda yadda yadda

Meetings with the Rat about FRIACO have been ongoing on since early July of this year. Its not like the clock is resetting. The new commission are being set an end game, and given a rude awakening.

Some of the technical design requirements have been completed by Eircom to the apparent satisfaction of at least one of the negotiating operators.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
And you were right to be concerned, and you had even more of a right to go effing spastic when the Minister said that the ODTR had the power to mandate FRIACO. Yet the report finishes here? You didn't rip his head off and serve it to him on a platter?

Eh, the minister is advised by people who wrote these laws.

dahamsta

Mike, my point is that we've been saying explicitly for about nine months now that the ODTR was in a position to mandate FRIACO in Ireland. Now you go into a meeting with the Minister for Communications and he tells you that they could have done that all along. I expect a reaction from that. At the very least, I would have expected a request for an assurance that Etain Doyle - who, let's be clear, the Minister has just effectively called a liar - will not be given a seat on the Commission. I call that a wasted opportunity.

And yes, Dustaz, I want dates. Let me give you a new mantra: "Always Remember Mary O'Rourke" -- Ahern will follow in her footsteps at the first opportunity. IrelandOffline, as the only independent organisation representing us on this issue, has a duty to tie the Minister down to dates. Do I have to state the obvious here: We don't have time for open-ended appointments; we need dates; we need a schedule; and we need "possibilities" like we need a hole in the head.

adam

yellum

Oooh who to reply to first ? In order I guess.

Dustaz
Maybe rather than our Chairman, youd prefer Paddy20 to meet the minister on behalf of Ireland Offline?

Paddy20 is empassioned at least and I wouldn't care who met the Minister if they got some information back that didn't seem to be vetted by the Government Press Office.

SkepticOne


We chose to concentrate FRIACO announcement since we only had a short time in the meeting.

And you made a marvellous job of reworking his press release.

SkepticOne


Now, I don't know if Ahern is telling the truth here. I'm making no claims.

You however claim to know he is lying. Fine. I presume this is not just your opinion but that you have evidence to back this up. If so lets hear it.

Please do not imply I have claimed the Minister is a liar. I have no evidence that the Minister is lying but I do not have any that says he is telling the truth either.

I guess you want me to trust him and his party more and forget the recent and distant past of his current party members who were all promises and no action, or all lies and even more thieving. So far he is filling O'Rourkes shoes well.
"Soon my child" "patience" "blah blah blah, etc " We're back to the no actual commitments spin again.

DonegalMan


has to be one of the most stupid, pointless remarks I have ever seen here from a 'seasoned' poster.

Seasoned ? Martin I'm a smart assed kid who's half your age and just posts crap 99.99999% of the time. Don't build my ability up to make my insulting post seem even worse than it is.


The IOFFL committe have held their own with the top guys in the telco's, ODTR and DOE - also this is the second successive Minister IOFFL have met.

And thats admirable but if its meeting with them to say hello and be as nice as pie and be tame, then whats the point ? Change the group from being a pressure group to a cuddles group.

Do you really think it would serve a useful purpose to bombard the Minister with a load of detailed questions that he probably wouldn't even understand, never mind know the answers to?

You mean they shouldn't ask anything he didn't know ? !! Not bother his pretty little head with big words either, yeah ?

Thats insulting his ability to do his job. If the questions are relevant to his office then they should be asked. He could have gone looking for the answers or set something in motion to get the answers for IrelandOffline, it would even be an education process for this man.


I know nothing more than what was posted here but I'll bet my last euro that there will be ongoing contact between the committee and those officials. ...

You should also bear in mind that IOFFL never report every detail of these meetings, this is so that IOFFL can build trust with the people they meet and they will then talk more freely about what is happening behind the scenes.

Whats the point in knowing whats going on behind the scenes if you are not seen as someone whos not afraid to **** you out of it when you do bad or you stall. This is like Stockholm Syndrome, becoming buddies with your captors. Whats next : tea and cakes with Philip Nolan ?

Maybe more effort should be made on pressuring the goverment into action rather than becoming best buddies with civil servants and ministers.

*deep breath*

Dangger

Maybe you're right and it is time for a "cuddles group".

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
Mike, my point is that we've been saying explicitly for about nine months now that the ODTR was in a position to mandate FRIACO in Ireland. Now you go into a meeting with the Minister for Communications and he tells you that they could have done that all along. I expect a reaction from that. At the very least, I would have expected a request for an assurance that Etain Doyle - who, let's be clear, the Minister has just effectively called a liar - will not be given a seat on the Commission. I call that a wasted opportunity.

He did not call her a liar. There is clearly a difference of opinion between the two bodies concerning the legal interpretation of the powers. Etain Doyle is guaranteed a position on the new commission under the comms act.

segadreamcast

I suppose I can partially agree - IOFFL have been doing an awful lot of pussyfooting lately in their meetings.

We seem to (as a group) taken a more passive role in things, as opposed to being 'in your face' with blackouts or whatnot, we're now holding rather tame meetings every few weeks with <insert Minister's name here>, and they all feed us roughly the same lines.

Eventually it's probably going to end in tears - with less ministers willing to do meetings with you since IOFFL are seen as a "we'll meet with anybody who smells nice" kind of organisation. Soon enough they'll probably just leave you a printed sheet instead of showing up for the meeting, the points you are raising are too... predictable and are presented in such a tame matter that it makes for some frustrating reading.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
Please do not imply I have claimed the Minister is a liar. I have no evidence that the Minister is lying but I do not have any that says he is telling the truth either.

In response to the initial post about the powers of the commission you said: "... and will never be used". This is in direct contradiction of what he said in public. We now need something to back this up. Something other than your opinion.

I guess you want me to trust him and his party more and forget the recent and distant past of his current party members who were all promises and no action, or all lies and even more thieving.

Why would I or anyone care if you trust him?

dahamsta

He did not call her a liar.

Okay, here's your statement:

it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

Now, putting aside the fact that you actually sounded like a Government PR flunkey there, and assuming that "those present" refers to the Minister and his staff - if it doesn't, you've misled the membership - that statement says quite clearly to me that the ODTR has been in a position to mandate FRIACO all along. Etain Doyle has said clearly and positively on numerous occasions that she hasn't.

The Minister is new to his post, yet he seems quite clear on this issue. Are you telling me that he can pick it up in a matter of weeks, yet Mary O'Rourke, working with the same civil servants for several years, didn't? Nah, I think that although he didn't mean it, he just called her a liar. And I think you know what I would have done in that meeting.

There is clearly a difference of opinion between the two bodies concerning the legal interpretation of the powers.

FFS Mike, would you stop and listen to yourself? Keep that kind of talk up and you'll be invited to write the next ODTR Quarterly Review! FFS!

Etain Doyle is guaranteed a position on the new commission under the comms act.

Good man, repeat the mantra. Try repeating mine for a few minutes before you meet Ahern the next time.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
He did not call her a liar.

Okay, here's your statement:

it was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

Now, assuming that "those present" refers to the Minister and his staff - if it doesn't, you've misled the membership - that statement says quite clearly to me that the ODTR has been in a position to mandate FRIACO all along. Etain Doyle has said clearly and positively on numerous occasions that she hasn't.

I meant what I said. Etain Doyle has a different interpretation of the laws. This does not imply that she is a liar.

dahamsta

I meant what I said. Etain Doyle has a different interpretation of the laws. This does not imply that she is a liar.

Let's say I take you on your word. Now your options are:

a) O'Rourke didn't spot this wonderous power earlier. (O'Rourke is incompetent.)
b) The Minister understands the situation better than Doyle, in a matter of weeks. (Doyle is incompetent.)

Round and round we go. Where will the wheel stop?

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
I meant what I said. Etain Doyle has a different interpretation of the laws. This does not imply that she is a liar.

Let's say I take you on your word. Now your options are:

a) Mary O'Rourke didn't spot this wonderous power earlier. (Mary O'Rourke is incompetent.)
b) The Minister understand the law better than Doyle. (Doyle is incompetent.)

Round and round we go. Where will the wheel stop?

Sorry Adam, thats not how it works. Two people can have differences of opinion on an aspect of law. Final decision lies in the courts.

jwt

having lurked here for a long time, I have to comment....

Given the original posting asking for member comments and questions for the meeting, the response given by IOFFL about the meeting seemed a bit casual.

You met the minister, had a chat in which he reiterated previous comments and got a promise that the new commission will have the powers needed. (Nevermind the OTDR's existing powers or not)

That was hardly the tone of meeting expcted by the people posting to the original post.

While I realise that you can't go in all guns blazing, the overall tone of your report about the meeting is not that of a dynamic expression of opinions. Quite the opposite in fact.

If you raise expectations by asking people for their input into an upcoming meeting, don't be taken aback by the negative response when you post a tame report.


Bearing all that in mind, thank you for your continued efforts on behalf of all current and wannabe net users. Keep up the good work


JWT

dahamsta

Sorry Adam, thats not how it works. To people can have differences of opinion on an aspect of law. Final decision lies in the courts.

You need to sit back and read this thread again from start to finish Mike. You need to do it now.

adam

DonegalMan

Originally posted by yellum
*deep breath*

Ditto

Do you really want a lesson on how to create an influential lobby group?

Like informally meeting a minister, leading to meetings with ODTR and Telco's, to a public coference with all the top players answering to users, to becoming the media's 'official' commentator on Internet issues from the users perspective.......

Then again, maybe this had nothing to do with the recent splurge of activities by the ISP's

Martin

Yoda

Adam quoted:

He did not call [Etain Doyle] a liar.

Okay, here's your statement:

It was the view of those present that the ODTR has had from the beginning such powers and that these powers will be carried over to the Commission.

Now, assuming that "those present" refers to the Minister and his staff[, ...] that statement says quite clearly to me that the ODTR has been in a position to mandate FRIACO all along. Etain Doyle has said clearly and positively on numerous occasions that she hasn't.

Let's step back and take a deep breath, and remember the goal, shall we?

On the face of it, it would appear that if the minister believes that the ODTR has had from the beginning the power to enforce FRIACO, then his Directive to the new Commission should have real effect. Now you could take this as cause to start attacking Doyle for being incompetent (in not knowing that she had such powers), or being complicit in some conspiracy to keep FRIACO from the plain people of Ireland (which would take a lot of proving and would not result in anything useful (like getting us all a refund for years of internet price gouging on the part of the encumbant)). But neither platform for attack would make any difference, given Ireland OFFLine's goal.

The onus is now upon the Commission to make use of the powers that they have.