Meeting with Dermot Ahern - Report

yellum

Originally posted by DonegalMan


Do you really want a lesson on how to create an influential lobby group?

I've done work for one already, one thats managed to change European Agricultural laws. I've seen the real pros at work.

However if you'd like to document how its done I'd read it, perhaps you should cc it to the current committee, it would be of use to them I should think.

Like informally meeting a minister, leading to meetings with ODTR and Telco's, to a public coference with all the top players answering to users, to becoming the media's 'official' commentator on Internet issues from the users perspective.......


All very well done. I was at that conference , how long ago was it now ? I really enjoy my flatrate 24/7 always on net access now, and the DSL we have downstairs is great, and sooo cheap. Seems to me the comments from Etain at that conference are on a loopback tape recorder, as are all the other comments from the Telcos.


Then again, maybe this had nothing to do with the recent splurge of activities by the ISP's

I think this forum, the one that IrelandOffline at one stage tried to distance itself from was a huge resource for the telcos. It served as a barometer to see what people wanted.

The recent splurge from the ISPs was great, especially Esat bringing out an inferior product to the one they kicked so many people off, resulting in the formation of IOFFL.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by yellum
I've done work for one already, one thats managed to change European Agricultural laws. I've seen the real pros at work

Volunteers, working part-time with no funding ?

Martin

Forgot to ask - how long did it take them ?

DonegalMan

Originally posted by yellum
The recent splurge from the ISPs was great, especially Esat bringing out an inferior product to the one they kicked so many people off, resulting in the formation of IOFFL. [/B]

I've already made my feelings about Esat clear elsewhere in this forum.

I agree the recent offerings are not great in themselves but 3 months ago there was nothing excpet those who managed to hold onto old SNL, now we have new ISP in the market with off peak package, Esat trying to compete with new off peak packages and 'light weight' ADSL offering in 40 exchanges across the country, Eircom under pressure from all directions, the national press raising the issue in non technical columns, a Government Minister for the first time ever talking about the need for Flat Rate Access and indeed mandating it...

I know we are all impatient - no-one less so than myself - but at least the momentum is building.

Martin

De Rebel

Originally posted by jwt
having lurked here for a long time, I have to comment....

ditto

Originally posted by jwt

If you raise expectations by asking people for their input into an upcoming meeting, don't be taken aback by the negative response when you post a tame report.

Bearing all that in mind, thank you for your continued efforts on behalf of all current and wannabe net users. Keep up the good work

My reading of SkepticOne's post is that either (1) you came away frustrated or (2) that most of what happened was in the confidence building and getting to know you arena which is impossible to report. Of course there is the other possibility that you are busy people and minutes take time!

My experience of such meetings would suggest that your strategy was right. A one point agenda, focused and to the point, where the other side gives the commitments is a good start. It leaves you with the upper hand. At any further meetings you can use this as a basis.

I know that a lot of people contributed to the suggested agenda, some having put a lot of work in. But to go in with a long list of demands, criticisms, historical baggage etc would have been demeaning, pointless and certainly the last meeting with that minister.

Ahern is new to the job. He is entitled to a chance to prove himself. That statement surprised me. I abhor that careful noncommittal civil service language in which it was couched. But its apparent strength reveals a lot. It is clear that Ahern’s most senior advisors have woken up and that there is now a willingness will to rattle if not tackle both the ODTR and the Ericom/ESAT duopoly. The very fact that the minders allowed you near him speaks for itself.

Well done on getting this far. But that was the easy bit. Now you need:

A short letter thanking him for the meeting, and proposing times and dates for 2 follow up "progress review meetings" on 30th January and 30th April. And I assume that you will have established channels to the 2 civil servants who were present and that you will keep these wide open over the coming weeks with a weekly call at the very least.

Good work, and rather than let the negative comments here offend you, accept them as an indication of the pent up frustration that you represent and let them energise you.

Gremlin

Interesting thread.

Please excuse my naivity. It seems that you can have political arguments you like, but I don't think the average joe bloggs is one inch nearer having reasonably priced broadband/internet services than he was say this time last year.

IOFFL seems like our best hope but from reading whats going on here it seems that internal arguments are more important than raising the public awareness that the whole issue needs and deserves.

I realise that IOFFL are volunteers and say a big thx for your efforts but they really dont seem to be going anywhere right now:(

Regards,

Dave.

Yoda

Why would you say that?

IOFFL has obtained a statement from the Minister that the Commission has the power to impose flat-rate, and that the ODTR apparently had that power as well all along.

The onus is now upon the Commission to make use of the powers that they have.

What could be a clearer sign of success?

segadreamcast

"the ODTR apparently had that power as well all along. "

Yet never used them.

"What could be a clearer sign of success?"

Logging on to post this message using a flat rate servive would be a far better sign of success than a document, methinks.

A lot done, more to do .

Yoda

Originally posted by NoelRock
"the ODTR apparently had that power as well all along. "

Yet never used them.

Because Doyle claimed that she did not have that power. Now she knows that she does (never mind that she did), and the Commission will have to do as the Minister directs. And the Minister directs them to impose flatrate.

yellum

Originally posted by Yoda

The onus is now upon the Commission to make use of the powers that they have.

What could be a clearer sign of success?

The powers that were there all along are now available to Etain Doyle again. And so the Status Quo continues. Actually if she does force Friaco with the same laws she wouldn't force it with before shes also going to look bad. This woman ain't going to win methinks.

Originally posted by NoelRock

A lot done, more to do .

A lot of people fu*ked over, more to fu*k over I would think

jd

Originally posted by Yoda
Because Doyle claimed that she did not have that power. Now she knows that she does (never mind that she did), and the Commission will have to do as the Minister directs. And the Minister directs them to impose flatrate.

I think the point is that the minister always had the power to issue a directive, but this hadn't been done previously
jd

Slutmonkey57b

It's a pity there's so much frustration with this report but it's understandable. There's no reason to expect anything to come out of a meeting with a minister and anything worth reporting can't be.

What is insulting to the public that the Commission are supposed to represent is that Doyle, who has been shown to be ignorant of her own job and spineless to boot is GUARANTEED a place on the commission, when she shold be booted out on the street. She went on national radio and announced she had no power, only to be contradicted by her minister a few weeks later. This sort of rewarding incompetance is what's wrong with the Irish political system.

It would have been nice to hear the Minister's response to the question
"Given (the above), is Doyle the best person for the job and are the reothers on the commission going to be of better calibre?"

But still..

Yoda

Well, Yellum, I think that maintaining this level of pessimism is really rather stupid. Whether Doyle was ignorant of her powers or arcanely complicit in refusing to use them, the fact of the matter is that not only does she now know that she has them, but she is being directed to use them.

Moaning about what was doesn't do anything for our cause, and, frankly, insults and puts down all the important work IOFFL has done to get the ear of the government. It is working, folks. We are winning the day.

dahamsta

Why would you say that? IOFFL has obtained a statement from the Minister that the Commission has the power to impose flat-rate, and that the ODTR apparently had that power as well all along. The onus is now upon the Commission to make use of the powers that they have.

I think the point being made is that IrelandOffline obtained a statement from the Minister that had already been made, i.e. it obtained nothing. I think the anger is coming about because we've been battling for this precise matter for about a year now, yet when it comes it has a sting in the tail -- that there's no reason why it shouldn't have been done before. That hurts, and offends. And to be frank, the argument that this is a difference of legal opinion is an insult to our intelligence. The Director is by definition supposed to know far more about these matters than the Minister. It's her job, remember?

"I find that offensive."
-- Bender

What could be a clearer sign of success?

Committments, deadlines, dates, schedules. IrelandOffline was asked specifically to get committments from the Minister, yet the result of this meeting appears to be worthy only of a few lines of a report. No committments, no deadlines, nothing new -- not even enough lines for the slightly more informed to read between, as in the past. They got fobbed off, period, but that isn't the problem -- the problem is that although it probably isn't their fault, they don't seem to be able to see it, and instead they're answering with political statements.

Before you respond, let's be clear, if anyone has supported IrelandOffline in the past, it's been me. I get stroppy every now and then, but it's always about specific issues, and when someone goes on a general "IrelandOffline Sucks" attack, I'm usually the first to step up and defend them. However, I'm concerned that IrelandOffline is moving in the wrong direction, that it's becoming too political, that it's forgetting about the grassroots that was responsible for it's creation, and often its success. That's partly why I left the organisation, and I'd like to see it curtailed, for the simple reason that I'm not seeing a genuine benefit.

I wouldn't be saying all this if I wasn't seriously concerned, but I will counter myself to a degree by saying that I believe I know IrelandOffline quite well, and I know how easy it is to become distracted. I genuinely believe that the problems - or at least the problems as I see them - are nothing a little straight talk with the membership won't fix, and I look forward to that happening. But while we wait for that to happen, IrelandOffline needs to sit back and think a little, it needs to remember that it's not just another talking shop. It's a pressure group.

adam

Yoda

Adam,

I don't think that we have been told before by a Minister that the regulator has the power to force the provision of flatrate.

One thing that did happen was that we told the government what the Italian regulator was doing, and we told the ODTR what the Italian regulator was doing. The regulator said she couldn't do what the Italian regulator did.

Now the story is different. It's a new story. Yes, we need timetables. Yes, the Minister has to follow through. Yes, we have to hound him to make sure he does. There are two Commissioners who have yet to be appointed, and now that this news has broken, they damn well better know just what job it is that they are taking on. As for Doyle, well, whatever excuse there may have been in the past, the job description is now crystal clear.

I don't think that it's right for you to say we have been fobbed off. We haven't. Of course we have to follow through with this. But my reading of it is that, if the Minister sticks to his word, and if the Commissioners do as they are directed, we will have flatrate, and soon.

dahamsta

I don't think that we have been told before by a Minister that the regulator has the power to force the provision of flatrate.

The whole country was told a week before IrelandOffline met with the Minister:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=67897

One thing that did happen was that we told the government what the Italian regulator was doing, and we told the ODTR what the Italian regulator was doing. The regulator said she couldn't do what the Italian regulator did.

True. How many months ago was that?

Now the story is different. It's a new story. Yes, we need timetables. Yes, the Minister has to follow through. Yes, we have to hound him to make sure he does. There are two Commissioners who have yet to be appointed...

[ http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=68562 ]

and now that this news has broken, they damn well better know just what job it is that they are taking on. As for Doyle, well, whatever excuse there may have been in the past, the job description is now crystal clear.

This is true, it's progress. That's not the point I'm arguing here though Michael.

I don't think that it's right for you to say we have been fobbed off. We haven't.

Well, I'm sorry, I can't concede that. I see nothing new as being fobbed off. Show me something new. Show me progress.

Of course we have to follow through with this. But my reading of it is that, if the Minister sticks to his word, and if the Commissioners do as they are directed, we will have flatrate, and soon.

About time. But again, not my point.

adam

Fallschirmjager

jesus, im nearly afraid to talk here...maybe if everyone just took a step sideways and lets look at the whole picture...

1. adam thinks we have stepped in a pile of poo

2. others dont

3. some others do

my recommendation...

lets agree that we dont always get what we want. lets agree that we have gotten this far by unity and direction (even if we get moody -- aka some of my ould replies)

so mt recommendation

lets agree that Ahern has given us something...something, a thread. Now what i say is well done for getting that -- personally i too would love a date but his entire political career is built on never doing that BUT

he has agreed...i think what we need to do here is agree to wipe the poo off our shoe , and agree a plan of attack if or when he pulls the chicken switch...if he does we have him by his political nads...he has been on bbc, he has released documents, he has a law, he has an odtr or commossion (however **** she maybe) and what we have friends is a chance to put on our steel tipped docks and aim right at the panty like if he doesnt deliver...

so we all have a our views and they are different, the power is in that.

so just to piss ye all of, i dont understand why i cant have a T1 in my house for 50 squids...SO CAN YOU ASK HIM THAT THE NEXT TIME!!!!

i think -- lets take stock -- use what we have and go forward and remember something

WE ARE WINNING...ITS SLOW BUT WE ARE --LETS NOT STOP NOW , LETS NOT DIVERT AND LETS NOT EASE UP

LETS USE WHAT WE HAVE


to all -- good thread, good job

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
WE ARE WINNING...ITS SLOW BUT WE ARE --LETS NOT STOP NOW , LETS NOT DIVERT AND LETS NOT EASE UP

LETS USE WHAT WE HAVE

Agree 100%

Martin

De Rebel

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
WE ARE WINNING...ITS SLOW BUT WE ARE --LETS NOT STOP NOW , LETS NOT DIVERT AND LETS NOT EASE UP

Also agree 100%. If I may quote myself:

A short letter thanking him for the meeting, and proposing times and dates for 2 follow up "progress review meetings" on 30th January and 30th April. And I assume that you will have established channels to the 2 civil servants who were present and that you will keep these wide open over the coming weeks with a weekly call at the very least.

We have a commitment, he claims to be on our side, lets keep the pressure on. A few months will tell a lot.

yellum

I'm just wondering would IrelandOffline consider contacting Etain Doyle now and asking her right now can she mandate FRIACO since the Minister said she has the ability ?

Put her on the spot and see what she says. If she says she can thanks to the Minister clarifying matters then it should be asked if she will mandate it right now. What is she waiting for ?

If she says she can't force FRIACO then we have interesting times ahead.

Either way she should be asked for her viewpoint on this. Why wait for this commission now ?

dahamsta

Bloody good idea. Might save some embarassment in all corners later.

adam

jwt

I think this is definitely the way forward for the next few weeks.

Pin Etain Doyle down to a yes or no answer on her current legal right regarding enforcing FRIACO.

Damahsta

I sympathise with your feelings and views and to be honest am striving not to share them. However IOFFL is still our only serious challenge to the powers that be.

De Rebel

I take your point about taking a specific point and pressing it, I agree with that as a tactic. But if that was the intention of IOFFL then why ask for requests???


JWT

De Rebel

Originally posted by jwt
De Rebel

I take your point about taking a specific point and pressing it, I agree with that as a tactic. But if that was the intention of IOFFL then why ask for requests???


JWT

Well thats one for the committee of IOFFL to answer I guess.

But from my experience of such meetings, even if there is a very specific and tight agenda it’s useful to take sounding from the people you represent before you go in. That way, no matter what arises you have a finger on the pulse. The other consideration of course is that the IOFFL people may not have been in a position to set the agenda for the meeting, and may have wanted to go prepared for all eventualities.

That’s my thoughts, for a more accurate answer you would need to ask the committee.

jwt

fair enough :cool:

jwt

Fallschirmjager

now THAT is a good one.....

it is amazing what some alteral thinking can do...

no doubt the excuse will be the commission is only just set up (did anyone else hear that the other 2 members were elected?) and we will have to wait blah blah blah...

HOWEVER....if nothing else we would have the pleaseure of watich here squirm a little....


id BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR.....

good one

BoneCollector

Ah fk this... im not going through this whole thread to find the answer to a simple question

sceptic!..

the point has been made that the minister quite clearly indicated that the ODTR HAD! and always HAD the power to implement Fraico and i have mails from the odtr saying quite the opposite.

I have yet to see the answer to the question..
that when the minister made this SHOCKING!! STATEMENT

What was your responce or did it just fly bye without any reaction at all!??

and with this new information should we now be DEMANDING that this is impletment NOW!! not tomorrow or next week or next month!?
and since i have mails clearly telling me the opposite is true directly from the ODTR this is clearly someone that was lying or does not know there job!
So What are we going to do about this!?

BoneCollector

Okay i will answer my own question..
according to the odtr they have stated that it has no more powers than what was already covered, so mr ahern either doesnt have a clue or is lieing or the odtr hasnt a clue either or is also lyeing...
either ways it seem neither of these are singing from the same book!?
so we have a gov that hasnt a clue and is winging it all the way, and feeding mis-information to the mass`s including IOFFL, and it was never questioned!??

although you have to be carefull how mr ahern answered the question...
did he say they have the power to facilitate or to implement.
Facilitate <--- is interpretive
Iplement <--- is not

Either way.. where being bashed from piller to post... maybe we can get absolute! clarification from this up comming meeting where a rep of mr aherns office will be attending, and push them on the clarification to the point where it either admits the odtr has no such powers or the odtr should be made aware of its power.

Also.. one of my other concerns would be from the recent statement from mr ahern with states that he will be directing the ODTR to make FRAICO an ABSOLUTE! PRIORITY!
How can the ODTR make fraico and an absolute priority if as stated it can do nothing!? untill called upon by interested parties.?
so if no one contacts the odtr it does nothing so how can this statement "he will be directing the ODTR to make FRAICO an ABSOLUTE! PRIORITY!" be true!??