Members IRC session details.

Dustaz

Yeh, i edited the post as it was a little extreme (work is a bit ehavy atm).

Im all for constructive critisiscm. Its just that there was accusations of spin and political aspirations thrown at the committe in this forum and i dont think thats too fair.

milltown

I'm very sorry to see some of the above views expressed on this forum, particularly given the timing. The inertia of the huge telco wheel has only just been overcome and we are beginning to see some movement in the right direction, or at the very least, the promise of movement from minister Ahern and EsatBT.
There does appear to be a startling amount of venom being spat lately from some of the more prominent posters. A lot has been achieved in the past year and I can't help but think that the reason could be the shift from the original IrelandOffline, which from the outside looking in gave the impression of a bunch of cry bahs whinging about having their internet taken away (not flaming, it was always a noble cause but that is how it appeared to me), to a respected lobby group whose views are now sought and respected by the media and the decision makers.
Keep up the good work and f**k the begrudgers!

yellum

Originally posted by Dustaz
Yellum, What is your agenda?

Fair point. I give a damn about IOFFL. If I didn't care about it I wouldn't waste my time and bandwidth (both owned by my company during the day ) I am anxious like everyone else for it to suceed.

I didn't mean to make veiled shots, they're sneaky. If I have something to say I'll say it outright. I thought thats what I did since the end of last week.

Lately I felt that IrelandOffline were fading away from member interaction completely and just becoming a half dozen people who met with various groups and that was it. My opinion of a pressure group is one that utilizes its resources to the maximum, this has not been done by IrelandOffline and is a complete waste. Right now as well if all the committee left the thing would fall apart. I feel it should be structured and

but tbh you sound like a backbench opposition TD

Whats wrong with backbench opposition TDs ? They have a place

but as a member of ioffl who thinks the committee are doing a decent job. Sure, there are areas that could be improved, i dont think anyone denies that but Reading critisicms in every thread becomes tiresome

See I don't, I'm glad of what they've done so far but I have aired my thoughts on where I thought they have gone wrong. I've done so publically too so that all members can reply with their views. Actually while I wasn't trolling I'd have hoped for more people to express their support for what irelandOffline have done so far.

I think the matters that will be addressed as a result of the irc session is a step in the right direction definetly but it has to be done strictly and professionally. IrelandOffline needs to think and act like a professional organisation.

I am also of the opinion that being afraid to take criticism is wrong. IrelandOffline should be well able to take criticism and if its confident of its structure and its ability it will bounce off them.

I welcome people that nitpick, theres a place for these people. ( me ) They can be a dose of reality when everyone else thinks all is rosey.

Milltown: Its not begrudging its grown up realism. IOFFL need to be bulletproof and tough to take on the behemoths of the Government and Eircom. There is always room for improvement and things that can be tweaked, having people finding things that are wrong should be welcomed not sneered at and called begrudging

I dont mean any offense by this, dont take it as an attack on some of your better ideas

No problem lad. Its good that people are sticking up for IrelandOffline and expressing their views.

yellum

Originally posted by Dustaz

Its just that there was accusations of spin and political aspirations thrown at the committe in this forum and i dont think thats too fair.

It its an issue with moderation then fine, if its not then let the Committee members answer it. You moderate this forum, you are not the pro for the committee.

dahamsta

MDR, I appreciate your response, however I'm not going to continue debating the matter as I don't believe I'll be allowed to express myself adequately. Sorry.

adam

yellum

Originally posted by MDR


It rather difficult to do that I am afraid. Other more pressing concerns often interfere, such as consultation documents that need to be reponded to, complaints that need to be made, meetings that have to be gone to, etc. I find it very difficult to guestimate my time in work, nevermind IOFFL.
......
Its something I have been talking about for quite some time, but other more pressing concerns have conspired to delay it.

So farm out the work to the battalion of members. I know the committee are swamped. Stop being martyrs or you will die of exhaustion !

MDR

So farm out the work to the battalion of members. I know the committee are swamped. Stop being martyrs or you will die of exhaustion !

We do our best to delegate, its not always as easy as you think.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Dustaz

Fair points Yellum boy

Originally posted by yellum
It its an issue with moderation then fine, if its not then let the Committee members answer it. You moderate this forum, you are not the pro for the committee.

Yeh, again, i was speaking as a memeber of Ioffl.

yellum

So then, to drag up an old thread. Whats happened since the IRC session ?

Wasn't there meant to be a constitution and an increased frequency of mailing to the membership and more irc sessions and well a whole stack of other things ?

Since the Comreg is still new it might be good to make moves.

Xian

Originally posted by yellum

So then, to drag up an old thread. Whats happened since the IRC session ?

Wasn't there meant to be a constitution and an increased frequency of mailing to the membership and more irc sessions and well a whole stack of other things ?

It's hardly an opportune time to bring this up, is it yellum? What with Dave still abroad and the only other committee member present at the irc session, Mike, no longer on the committee.

Well, here goes.

What I do remember was daveirl taking it upon himself to come back with a draft constitution, you to compile a telco timeline, regional chapters to be established and working groups to be set up. The first two have not happened, the second two are in progress but real action on these will not take place until January, which looks like it will be a very busy time indeed...

Since the Comreg is still new it might be good to make moves.

Exactly. So we need as much feedback as possible to formulate our response to the draft direction as this will be template on which future regulation will be based for a long time to come. Phil Nolan's call for less regulation is an indication of how high the stakes are. Take for example an issue close to your own interests:

Regulation only where necessary

• The Commission, except where required otherwise by statutory obligations, shall before deciding to impose regulatory obligations for the purpose of the management of the radio frequency spectrum, examine where the objectives of such regulatory obligations would be better achieved by forbearance from imposition of such obligations.

Now if this direction goes in without anyone commenting on it, what do you think the effect will be? None to good, I think you'll agree. As I said, ComReg have to comply with any direction given by the Minister. Has it been commented on? If not it will stand and we'll have to live with the consequences of this as ComReg in deciding on RF will be bound to follow the direction and that does not bode well for the future.

As you've seen from MrPudding's posts, we are working on a publicity drive - papers, radio, tv - in January at and after the time of submitting the responses. This is the time when public opinion counts as it is the time that Minister Ahern will be looking to his electorate to decide what will make the government look good regarding telecoms in Ireland. Right now we have to get the response right. That's something we all should be doing right now.

giving the pressure group equivalent of a backrub and suggestitive whispers in the ear isn't proactive. There should be more of "Oi Comreg, we're watching you and we are going to publically chastise you if you don't do a good job "

Regarding acting while ComReg is new, I agree, but does it take one of us to point out that it might be a very good idea to slap ComReg with a FOI request for all correspondence and documentation relating to the introduction of wholesale sms and the marketing by Eircom of their retail service? Doesn't take much to figure out that there'll be some juicy bits in that. Make no mistake, we are watching every move they make and they know full well. You want to be a part of that? Submit the FOI request. Right now it's just an idea, just like the EU CA idea. Ideas are ten a penny. What it needs is someone to pick it up and run with it. All it takes is a simple letter - unlike the EU CA initiative which would involve a dedicated effort over a number of months to follow the due process Muck described. Not that it too should not be done, it's just that I don't understand how there are repeated calls for the membership to be involved and yet every month ideas like this are left by the wayside because people consider it to be our, or at least someone else's, job to carry the can. It isn't. It's your job.

Proactive, innit.

dahamsta

Sorry to pick on one thing, but I don't have time to go into the rest of it right now...

the only other committee member present at the irc session, Mike, no longer on the committee.

Was this announced?

Thanks,
adam

yellum

Thanks for the answer Xian, its past my bedtime so I'll reply tomorrow

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
Was this announced?

Yes, adam, at short notice - something you picked Dave up on at the time, and not for the last time either, but something which has to be remedied in future.

dahamsta

Nah, I didn't. The last time I criticised IrelandOffline for short notice was about the dwinks in Dublin. I can only remember one other time before that, and I think that was with regard to another meeting. It certainly wasn't about Mike. First I heard of it, although I'm not blaming anyone, just curious is all.

The gain, Xian, the gain.

adam

PiE

Was there a reason? Or just work commitments etc?

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
I can only remember one other time before that

If you look at the beginning of this thread you will find...

Originally posted by dahamsta
Atrocious notice Dave. Atrocious. I don't know what you're at.

sceptre

I'm pretty sure (even after only 45 mins sleep last night - too many movies, not enough study time) that Adam was asking whether there was an announcement about Mike's leaving the committee a few posts above - rather than asking whether the IRC session was announced (which wouldn't make much sense given that he already posted about that a while back)

dahamsta

What sceptre said. Which should have been pretty obvious given that I clearly said "It certainly wasn't about Mike" in the second post. Turn it down Xian!

heh

adam

SkepticOne

Yeah I left the committee a while back. I wanted to keep it low-key so I asked the remaining committee not to make an announcement. Instead I asked one of the admins to remove the 'IOFFL Committee' from my handle thinking that this would be sufficient. Pressure of work/college etc.

MDR

Yeah,

I was delighted when Mike left, he used to eat all the biscuits and spill his tea everywhere ... kidding ... we miss Mike !!!

Turn it down Xian!

*Ray is slightly deaf from Adam shouting in it himself from time to time* ...

yellum

Originally posted by Xian

It's hardly an opportune time to bring this up, is it yellum? What with Dave still abroad and the only other committee member present at the irc session, Mike, no longer on the committee.

Well I brought it up since it was a while since the IRC session - http://www.iol.ie/~zero/ioffl/ and again the whole keeping members up to date was forgotten about. I had not realised Dave was on hols and Mike had finished up ( you did a great job while there Mike btw ) , again not my fault if this info is not communicated to people.

What I do remember was daveirl taking it upon himself to come back with a draft constitution, you to compile a telco timeline, regional chapters to be established and working groups to be set up. The first two have not happened, the second two are in progress but real action on these will not take place until January, which looks like it will be a very busy time indeed...

My Telco timeline was not a main thing, I said myself I could only concentrate on this when I had freetime / gave up my job. This is the txt of what was going to happen:


<DavidLong> Action Point 1. Goals and Structure of Working Groups a description of how they will feed in. David Long by Thursday night

<DavidLong> Action Point 1. Draft constition creation (early days) - daveirl, Sunday fortnight
<DavidLong> sorry that was point 2

<DavidLong> Point 3 - A thread calling for regional interest groups


<DavidLong> we need to suss out the number of willing bodies for such a task. We'll provide an outline of what we would like to see from such groups, and what support they woul dhave from the COmmittee and the WG's
<DavidLong> okay point 4 - The meetings list - to be done by me for next weekend

<DavidLong> we've got some work to do for this week. I'm sure thsi will feed more debates on the forum. Soem stickies will be going up.

<yellum> and a sticky on the timeline




Exactly. So we need as much feedback as possible to formulate our response to the draft direction as this will be template on which future regulation will be based for a long time to come.


I'm happy to see the membership was emailed about this. More of this kind of thing !


I don't understand how there are repeated calls for the membership to be involved and yet every month ideas like this are left by the wayside because people consider it to be our, or at least someone else's, job to carry the can. It isn't. It's your job.

Because people probably look for official word from IrelandOffline to do this. People need the support of the group and even the coordination of it. If someone has a good idea why not say "Great Idea, why don't you run with this on behalf of IOFFL and we'll back and support you and ask others to help you too "

The membership have chosen the committee to guide them afterall.

Xian

Originally posted by yellum
I had not realised Dave was on hols and Mike had finished up ( you did a great job while there Mike btw ) , again not my fault if this info is not communicated to people.

First of all you should understand that over the last couple of days there were murmurs of discontent on the boards and I was not willing to let it get out of hand, not on my watch. Given that, and seeing as it is always better to single one out of the crowd rather than to take on all, I chose you as your comments seemed to best summarize the general sentiment - nothing personal, you understand ;-)

This is the txt of what was going to happen:

The topics are to be the subject of a meeting we have planned for mid- to late-January. A couple of things, such as the small matter of the Minister's direction, put these on hold. If you can hold off discussion on this until we've made concrete plans on what we see as the future of IO it'd be better and more constructive.

I'm happy to see the membership was emailed about this. More of this kind of thing !

A mailing list is not an instantly renewable resource - overuse would lessen its value and no doubt lessen its subscribers. We only use it when we have something we believe to be of importance to communicate.

Because people probably look for official word from IrelandOffline to do this. People need the support of the group and even the coordination of it. If someone has a good idea why not say "Great Idea, why don't you run with this on behalf of IOFFL and we'll back and support you and ask others to help you too "

Do they? Did Martin Harran ask for official word to organize the meeting with the powers-that-be in Donegal, or De Rebel in Cork? Did eircomtribunal ask for our "permission" to put up his site or Kennett our blessing to seek redress for blatant malpractice? All of these things make a difference, with or without the seal of approval from IO.

The membership have chosen the committee to guide them afterall.

We were not "chosen". The last AGM didn't have a quorum to elect a new committee or volunteers to fill the posts. In the end it's just a group of people who are passionate about the issue and meet up or email each other to share views, with each doing work no more or less significant than the work of the likes of the people who replied to Jane Suiter or the BBC's article or filed a complaint with the ASAI or sent letters to their TDs or anyone else who goes out there and tries to do something to change the status quo.*

... or submitted an FOI request to ComReg. Whaddya say, yellum? Ye up for it? I reckon it'll be a blast.

* Apart, that is, from telling Dave what to say when he meets someone important ;-)

Dangger

I'm back! No bones broken! I can see I've got some catching up to do, as I'm just in the door. I've been completely "un-teched" for the past 15 days.

yellum

Originally posted by Xian

First of all you should understand that over the last couple of days there were murmurs of discontent on the boards and I was not willing to let it get out of hand, not on my watch.

If people have complaints and want issues addressed I see it as a good thing. Insults and snipes are not of course useful but where someone finds a problem with the way things are done they should be encouraged to voice their concerns imho.


Given that, and seeing as it is always better to single one out of the crowd rather than to take on all, I chose you as your comments seemed to best summarize the general sentiment - nothing personal, you understand ;-)

Pffffft, I didn't think it was personal at all. I made some noises and I was addressed about these. Thats grand with me if things are getting clarified.

The topics are to be the subject of a meeting we have planned for mid- to late-January. A couple of things, such as the small matter of the Minister's direction, put these on hold. If you can hold off discussion on this until we've made concrete plans on what we see as the future of IO it'd be better and more constructive.

Are these committee meetings or meetings with other parties ? Why is it that only when someone bitches and whines IrelandOffline are forthcoming with information ?


A mailing list is not an instantly renewable resource - overuse would lessen its value and no doubt lessen its subscribers. We only use it when we have something we believe to be of importance to communicate.

Underuse of a resource is equally sinful too. Its good to ping the list every now and then and keep people interested.

Do they? Did Martin Harran ask for official word to organize the meeting with the powers-that-be in Donegal, or De Rebel in Cork?

As I said before in these matters, IrelandOffline should encourage this on a wider scale besides a few people doing it. I think that was one of the reasons for having regional chapters.

Did eircomtribunal ask for our "permission" to put up his site

To be honest EircomTribunal has balls. I doubt the present IrelandOffline would be so combatitive and so forward in apportioning blame to those that are to blame. As I have stated in a direct way a few times I disagree with IrelandOfflines softly softly approach. It may have gotten you more meetings with the powers that be but if there is no end result just the usual rehash of government spin then .....

All of these things make a difference, with or without the seal of approval from IO.

They do indeed, but they are a mere trickle. Someday a real rain will come and wipe this scum off the streets. We need a downpour.

... or submitted an FOI request to ComReg. Whaddya say, yellum? Ye up for it? I reckon it'll be a blast.

Can you make FOI requests about who made FOI requests ? Sure I'll make some FOI requests , I have a few to make anyway.

* Apart, that is, from telling Dave what to say when he meets someone important ;-)

/restrains himself from making a v bitchy comment but [URL=http://www.letssingit.com/sandie-shaw-puppet-on-a-string-vlghdws.html[/url]whistles some tune[/URL]

SkepticOne

Are you looking for something to do, Yellum? Why don't you ask the committee if you can volunteer for something? Here's some suggestions:

1. A timeline of significant events leading up to the present day situation.

2. I believe the committee is encouraging people to contribute to IOFFL feedback on the policy direction to ComReg. Does it go far enough? Is there anything left out? You may have opinions on this.

By doing stuff for IOFFL, you will be encouraging others to do the same.

vinnyfitz