What is racism?

Mr White

A dictionary will say it is hostile or oppressive behaviour towards other races,or believing one race is superior to another because of innate characteristics.But really it means a lot more than that, judging by the blanket use of the epithet by leftists on this forum. There are a few things that seem to set them off.

1. White:don't mention it,because racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by white people."Black pride" is said to be a wonderful and worthy thing, but anything that could be construed as an expression of white pride is a form of hatred.
2. Diversity:it's good and must be celebrated.An homogenous monocultural Ireland(ie.pre-1995)is to be deplored because of the excess of Irish people.If you don't agree you're a racist.
3. Irish people must champion the racial interests of non-whites.We must sacrifice our own future on the alter of 'diversity' and cooperate in our own dispossession.We are to encourage,even subsidize,the displacement of Irish culture by alien people and cultures.To refuse to do so is racism.

You won't see any of these meanings in a dictionary or the rules of this forum,but you know if you express agreement with my views you'll be censored and maybe even banned.So be careful.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Mr White

1. White:don't mention it,because racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by white people."Black pride" is said to be a wonderful and worthy thing, but anything that could be construed as an expression of white pride is a form of hatred.
2. Diversity:it's good and must be celebrated. An homogenous monocultural Ireland(ie.pre-1995)is to be deplored because of the excess of Irish people.If you don't agree you're a racist.
3. Irish people must champion the racial interests of non-whites.We must sacrifice our own future on the alter of 'diversity' and cooperate in our own dispossession.We are to encourage,even subsidize,the displacement of Irish culture by alien people and cultures.To refuse to do so is racism.

You won't see any of these meanings in a dictionary or the rules of this forum,but you know if you express agreement with my views you'll be censored and maybe even banned.So be careful. [/B]

1. [Insert colour here] pride is not racism. Pride in one's own (perceived) collective identity is merely a political stance that amounts to a generally positive and healthy attempt to eradicate subjugation. Racism is more virulent and attempts to perpetuate that subjugation or, in other cases, reverse it.
2. That is a completely skewed way of viewing it. Ireland was 'monocultural' once (and even that assumption can be criticised) because Ireland was largely isolationist and few people moved around in those days. Ireland pre-1955 was an Ireland that wasn't really tapped into the global economy - which even then was in its infancy. Multicultural Ireland is a result of greater connectedness to other countries, cultures and economies because of modern technologies, telecommunications, economic globalisation, cheap and easy transport and the European Union. This is just what's happened; there's the history of modern Ireland and I don't think anyone's wishing it all went back to the old days.
3. Respecting the rights of individuals and groups to enjoy their own culture is not just enshrined in the UN Convention on Human Rights, the UN Covenant of Civil and Political Rights and in European Law, it's enshrined in our own constitution. We all, as citizens have a duty to make welcome anyone who comes to this country to work, live or escape persecution. Added to that is the fact that cultures change, full stop. If we actually took a leaf out of our own history books and got over our past historical traumas, we'd find we have a lot more in common with asylum seekers and economic migrants than we currently think. It's only by, yes, embracing our own unique history that we can begin to healthily move along as a country imbued with greater levels of connectedness and diversity than ever before.

Meh

Originally posted by Mr White
White:don't mention it,because racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by white people."Black pride" is said to be a wonderful and worthy thing, but anything that could be construed as an expression of white pride is a form of hatred.

Yeah, like all those people here praising Robert Mugabe's racist land redistribution policies. Oh wait, there aren't any.

Irish people must champion the racial interests of non-whites.We must sacrifice our own future on the alter of 'diversity' and cooperate in our own dispossession. We are to encourage,even subsidize,the displacement of Irish culture by alien people and cultures.To refuse to do so is racism.

You appear to have a very low opinion of Irish culture -- if it is so weak that it is threatened by a mere few tens of thousands of economic migrants as you say, then it must be a pretty sorry excuse for a culture. Irish culture has survived many waves of immigrants over the past few millennia, and it definitely isn't going to be destroyed any time soon.

mike65

Oh dear, I can see where this is going...:(

Mike.

DadaKopf

Ah no, good topic for discussion, I wish there were more like this. Everyone should just be, eh, 'delicate' about how they express their opinions .

mike65

Originally posted by Meh
Y Irish culture has survived many waves of immigrants over the past few millennia, and it definitely isn't going to be destroyed any time soon.

Meh I don't need to point this out to you, but Irish culture is
waves of immigrants, those bloody Danes, French, Brits and various others are what gave us Mr White! There's a thought...

Mike.

DadaKopf

Culture is history. Irish culture is its history. So everything happening now is Irish culture. Why people make a distinction is beyond me.

Some random French hoardes invading Ireland in the 11th century indelibly became part of our 'culture' so why is this 21st century 'invasion' any different?

mike65

Originally posted by DadaKopf

Some random French hoardes invading Ireland in the 11th century indelibly became part of our 'culture' so why is this 21st century 'invasion' any different?

I imagine there were protests at Bannow Bay when the Normans came ashore in 1169. "Hop Off You Frogs!" etc

Mike.

DiscoStu

http://www.stormfront.org/

Mr. White you will fit in a lot more there.

pertinax

"We all, as citizens have a duty to make welcome anyone who comes to this country to work, live or escape persecution."

Is this an Irish thing? Will Israel or Pakistan allow people to escape persecution to work and live like we will?(when they've stoped persecuting people first of course). When will the cut off point come? For Israel when the jewish nature of that state is treatened no more people will allowed in who are not jewish. How much will jewish culture change then? It would stagnate or develope slowly while elsewhere culture develops rapidly.

gandalf

Ok Mr. White what exactly are you trying to protect here.

I want you to define what you mean by Irish Culture, what exactly are you trying to perserve. Go on then try and persued this liberal leftie why I should agree with your vision.

Define for me what a pure Irish person is ?

Define for me what Irish Culture is ?

Go on I challange you

Gandalf.

PHB

For Israel when the jewish nature of that state is treatened no more people will allowed in who are not jewish. How much will jewish culture change then?

Thats a flawed comparision.
The reason why the Israeli wont let some Palestinians in is because as it clearly states in the UN agreement

"...Refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."

In ireland we arent generally killed by the refugees coming into this country, compared to the Israelis who live in constant fear for their lives.

Zombrex

This sounds like a troll, so I won't get too worried about it, but the truth is there are quite a few people out there who seriously aggree with Mr White

"Black pride" is said to be a wonderful and worthy thing, but anything that could be construed as an expression of white pride is a form of hatred.

If the shoe fits ... show me one example of "White Pride" that does not celebrate white (western european) people as being better and superior to black (African) or Asian people. "Black Pride" originated from the oppression of african people in the Americas and Europe. Just as Irish people tried to discover reasons to be proud of Irish culture while being oppressed by the British empire (leading to the GAA, and a rebirth of the Irish language), black groups have tried to rediscover reason to celebrate their different cultures (leading to Jazz, Rock 'n Roll, etc in North America). In this respect "White Pride" is a pretty silly idea. Why would you need to refind "white" (i assume you mean european) culture (especially in Ireland), it has never been underthreat. European culture has invade every corner of the world. The truth is that "White Pride," in modern context, means celebrating the supperiority of Europeans over Africans and Asians. And this is rasicm in its simplest form.

Diversity:it's good and must be celebrated.An homogenous monocultural Ireland(ie.pre-1995)is to be deplored because of the excess of Irish people.If you don't agree you're a racist.

Why would you not celebrate diversity? While you have not been clear above, I would assume you would claim to oppose diversity because you fear that the "culture" of Ireland will be lost. Not only is this a pretty naive view (TV erodes more Irish culture with 5 minutes of american advertisments, than all the refugees that have every come into this country), I would suspect that there are other less policatly correct reasons. My experience with most people who don't want a mulitcultural ireland is because they don't want ireland full of "f*cking blacks"

Irish people must champion the racial interests of non-whites.We must sacrifice our own future on the alter of 'diversity' and cooperate in our own dispossession.We are to encourage,even subsidize,the displacement of Irish culture by alien people and cultures.To refuse to do so is racism.

Irish people must champion the "civil rights" of all people, white or not. Would you please explain how that is sacrificing our own future. For a start you assume an Ireland with a large population of "non-whites" will lead to the destruction of our future. To be blunt, our future really has f*@k all to do with inward imigration. What would you like to do, that you assume you will not be able to do in the next 10 years, due to imigration? Will you not be able to go to your local because it will be full of black people.

Frankly I am getting a bit sick of this stupid idea that Irish culture is going to be destroyed by imigration. The British tried to destroy our culture for 1000 years ... and guess what, GAA is on the telly and broadcast around the world, most people (who want to) know Irish, and I can get a pint of Guinness in Tokyo. I certainly believe that there are serious threats to culture around the world, most of them coming from Disney and Coke. But imigration is not one of them. Mr White, I would suggest you try and relax a bit ... the black man walking down the street doesn't hate you, so why do you hate him.

pertinax

And thats going to hapen is it? When the line of the israeli government is that the returned palestinian refugees will mean the destruction of the state of israel? Because Israel made an agreement it will adhjere to it?
"some Palestinians"?
If all the perfidious palestinian refugees returned to Israel and not a Palestinian state or even better, Jordan Isreal would have a jewish majority of under a million. Birth trends, aging population and immigration levels would mean a future jewish minority.

dathi1

Thats a flawed comparision. The reason why the Israeli wont let some Palestinians in is because as it clearly states in the UN agreement

what ?

Cultural Diversity;

Singapore:
works well under dictatorship.

Yugoslavia:
Worked well under dictatorship.

Britain:
Works ok ish. except Brixton, Oldham etc.

France:
Doesn't work now at all.

Germany:
Ethnic Turk and Kurd problems abound.

Fiji:
Didn't work and led to the overthrow of Fijian culture by Indian immigrants.

Israel,
as above with a twist.

North of Ireland:
Doesn't work.

USA:
everybody's in the same boat i.e.; immigrants (250,000) but cultural diversity is not celebrated.

Modern Immigration and its implications is a problem that has never faced Nations in the same way as it did in the past. Transport, communications and the mass movement of people around the globe is a relatively new phenomenon and will provide major challenges for us here in the next few years. We will have to deal with it. That means talking about it, not covering it up during elections by media self censorship and people not being afraid to express their opinions or fears on the subject without being labelled racist.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

DadaKopf

France: there are no minorities because in their constitution, everyone's a Frenchman. Nice way to get around human rights issues .

Zombrex

Modern Immigration and its implications is a problem that has never faced Nations in the same way as it did in the past.

From the earliest movement of humans, out of Africa to European, Asia and the Americas, people have been moving around this planet. Europeans have been immigrating to the Americas and Africa for the last 500 years (millions of Irish included).

What is new about modern immigration, as you call it, is people are now (in the last 100 years) coming to back Europe to find work and a new life. The problems with the countries you mention above, is that immigration is not welcome in these countries. The BNP had its best ever general election result in Brixton. This doesn't really tell me that they are welcoming people with open arms. White people are beating up black people on the streets of dublin, not the other way round.

I have no problem talking about immigration, and I do not think that every anti-immigration view is racist. I certainly have a few strong opinions about getting rid of the stupid Irish law that allows the parent of all children born in the state to claim citizenship. But you have to recognise that a lot of racism hides behind the fear that we will lose our cultural identify. Most persons fears about immigration are not based on rational analyse, but on a fear of the unknown and a fear of other cultures. Also, immigration has always been a scapegoat for the internal problems of a country (brilliantly satirised by the Simpsons). Anyone who is anti-immigration should ask himself or herself what are you really afraid of. I will listen to anyone that has a rational answer.

Meh

Originally posted by dathi1
USA:
everybody's in the same boat i.e.; immigrants (250,000) but cultural diversity is not celebrated.

So those St. Patrick's Day/Colombus Day/etc. parades you see in the US are just figments of my imagination?

Also, to your list I would add:

Canada:
Works very well under a democracy

Australia:
Works ok under a democracy (exception is the mistreatment of illegal immigrants)

Unjaku

Originally posted by Mr White
[*]Diversity:it's good and must be celebrated.An homogenous monocultural Ireland(ie.pre-1995)is to be deplored because of the excess of Irish people.If you don't agree you're a racist.

Irish society in this century was never really monocultural, monoethnic or even entirely white. Just because the majoirty of it was composed of white catholics does not mean 'the Other' was not present: the protestant and jewish communities; the traveller community and the presence of non-whites as far back as the beginning of the century.

Just because a government post-independance pushes the notion of the country's population as a homogenous unit doesn't make it so.

tribble

I certainly have a few strong opinions about getting rid of the stupid Irish law that allows the parent of all children born in the state to claim citizenship.

Do i remember that being challenged in a test case?

The kid was entitled to be an irish citizen but in the interest of the child he was deported with his parents.
He can, however, return here later in his life.

b

pro_gnostic_8

What is racism...............usually an accusation levelled at those of us who cannot see any reason to "celebrate" multi-culturalism.
Can someone explain to me why I should embrace multiculturalism. I am of the opinion that the achievements of Western European culture in Art, Literature, Science, etc., surpass those of Congolese or Romanian culture.. And does my desire to associate with people who share my heritage rather than with those of other ethnic backgrounds make me a racist?

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Culture is history.

Culture is primarily an expression of a set of moralities, philosophies and outlook.............a community-specific consciousness formulated through the history of a race.



Neither are we racist for articulating our disquiet about the large numbers of immigrants entering this country. By expression of our concern about indigenous Irish people losing their jobs as a result of cheap imported labour we are labelled xenophobic in the current politically-correct climate. Nationalistic definitely, (I feel no shame in admitting my allegiance to my race and country) but being called racist is unfair.

Meh

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
I feel no shame in admitting my allegiance to my race

There is no such thing as an Irish "race". You are claiming allegiance to something that doesn't exist -- a bit silly really.

And does my desire to associate with people who share my heritage rather than with those of other ethnic backgrounds make me a racist?

Yes, it does. Or, to be more accurate, it makes you a racial separatist. Either way, you advocate treating people differently based on their skin colour.

Neither are we racist for articulating our disquiet about the large numbers of immigrants entering this country

You're right, opposition to unrestricted immigration isn't racism. But scaremongering about a "black Ireland" is racism. There are plenty of black people in Ireland who aren't immigrants. Or would you like to see Paul McGrath, Phil Babb, Clinton Morrisson and Phil Lynott denied citizenship?

Wow, the Justin Barrett brigade are really coming out of the woodwork in this thread...

DadaKopf

Neither are we racist for articulating our disquiet about the large numbers of immigrants entering this country. By expression of our concern about indigenous Irish people losing their jobs as a result of cheap imported labour we are labelled xenophobic in the current politically-correct climate. Nationalistic definitely, (I feel no shame in admitting my allegiance to my race and country) but being called racist is unfair.

Like I said, pride in one's own collective identity (however narrow) is fine. Pride in one's own collective identity of a kind that causes harm to others and attempts to subjugate 'the other' is to be condemned.

bonkey

Originally posted by Mr White
White:don't mention it,because racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by white people."Black pride" is said to be a wonderful and worthy thing, but anything that could be construed as an expression of white pride is a form of hatred.

While the original idea of Black Pride was to encourage an oppressed people to take pride in the very reasons for their oppression. Its original intention was supposed to help people understand that they should not be ashamed of their colour, nor willingly accept subjugation based on racial grounds. This was absolutely "a wonderful thing".

White pride is a complete misnomer. The whites are not being oppressed by any racial group, therefore the pride they show is "pride in not being non-white". This is a supremacist notion, which by definition is racism.

I would equally say that today, Black Pride has mostly grown into a racist movement as well. It is no longer about its original ideals, it is now a case of "we dont need the white man", or "we are better than the white man" or some other seperatist or supremacist slant - all of which is racist in nature, as they are making distinctions about colour.

Its not unakin to the ongoing quest for equality amongst the sexes. The Suffragettes originally wanted women to take pride in their womanhood, so as to stop believing the myth of inferiority which was used to suppress/oppress them. Today, all too many women are no longer talking about equality, but somehow want to claim that women are, in actual fact, better than men.

If you are not supporting equality, then you are biased. With gender, this is sexist, with race it is racist.

[*]Diversity:it's good and must be celebrated.An homogenous monocultural Ireland(ie.pre-1995)is to be deplored because of the excess of Irish people.If you don't agree you're a racist.

Incorrect.

Ireland pre-1995 was mono-cultural to the extent that there hadnt been a large influx of foreign culture in so long that the diverse cultures had re-homogenised over time.

Go do some research - find how many people the British moved to Ireland over the centuries whilst we were under their rule. The fact is that Ireland had a period where there wasnt a continuous influx of different cultures allowed the existing ones to re-homogenise, but historically Ireland has had significant amounts of foreigners bringing their foreign culture here.

Therefore, if you take pride in Irish history, you should take pride in the fact that our base culture has withstood the centuries of foreign cultural influence and managed to retain much of its own original essence.

I dont deplore the homogenized culture which Ireland had, because it did not come about through any attempt to disallow foreign influence.

Wanting Ireland to "remain Irish" in any way shape or form is to deny our heritage, not take pride in it. It is also making a conscious effort to disallow foreign influence. This is not what happened pre-95 (or whatever benchmark you choose). It is what is happening today. It is discriminatory and seperatist, and should (in my opinion) quite rightly be deplored.

As an aside, the Irish as we know them (i.e. the Celts) came from eastern Europe. You know....just a touch north of Serbia, Croatia, and those other places who have formed large numbers of the immigrants/refugees who have come to Ireland. In other words, these people are actually closer to our ancestral cultures than we are. We came from their part of the world, not here.

Irish people must champion the racial interests of non-whites.

No. Irish people, as a nation, must not distinguish on a basis of colour. Every time you refer to "non-whites" you are not talking about "non-Irish", you are making a distinction on the basis of skin-colour. One way or another, you are advocating policies which will make decisions based on colour. This is racial discrimination.

I am not saying we should champion these people's interests. I am saying that we shouldnt side with the people who believe in denying people anything because of the colour of their skin.

You want to change "non-white" to "non-irish", then you can go back to your previous point which I have already answered. Both are deplorable reasons for refusing someone entry to this country.

You won't see any of these meanings in a dictionary or the rules of this forum

You're right. Dictionaries deal in definitions, not in examples. You havent offered a single definition of racism in all your points, you have offered test cases. You are asserting that because it is a test-case that doesnt appear in a dictionary it is not racist? I suggest that you re-educate yourself on what a dictionary is for.

When you look at the underlying meaning of what you are saying, it is entirely evident that in every case you are making a distinction in how policy or attitudes should be, based on nothing more than the colour of someones skin. This is exactly what your supplied dictionary definitions define as racism.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Like I said, pride in one's own collective identity (however narrow) is fine. Pride in one's own collective identity of a kind that causes harm to others and attempts to subjugate 'the other' is to be condemned.

This is probably better expressing what I was trying to get at in my previous post.

Pride in one's own attributes (race, nationality, gender, whatever) is fine, as long as it does not engender a belief that one's own attributes are somehow superior to others.

jc

dathi1

Originally posted by Meh
So those St. Patrick's Day/Colombus Day/etc. parades you see in the US are just figments of my imagination?

Also, to your list I would add:

wrong again....black Americans, Hispanics etc would totally disagree with you.


Canada? wrong again: They cant even agree on Indian Land resevervation reform. (the original natives) also its still on the verge of break up under the French separatists.

Australia: wrong again. aboriginal exclusion and deprivation on a wide scale. Although they're not about to make the same mistakes as their ancestors in Europe by allowing illegal immigrants to lose themselves within Australia without being checked out first.

Wow, the Justin Barrett brigade are really coming out of the woodwork in this thread...

A very smart contribution about peoples concern on illegal immigrants entering this country. Pigeon holeing people again. well done.

The fact remains that unrestricted access by illegal immigrants into a small country like Ireland will have major negative implications in the very near future. (re Fiji above) It already is: Our current Asylum Bill for 2002 will be in excess of Euro 450 million for social welfare, health care (especially post natal) ,accommodation, integration education, support agencies, "Racial Tolerance" advertisements campaigns, social services etc Soon to come: radio and Tv programming budgets for "special interest groups etc.i.e.: Islamic prayer before bedtime and the Islamic equivalent of the angelus//etc...Special "equality" laws (which are very discriminate against Irish citizens)...With a rate now of 8-10,000 illegal immigrants a year this bill will balloon in 2003. On top of the unrestrictive exclusive labour influx due in on the 1st Jan 2004 (IBEC /Cowen)..this will not make us like the USA...Comparison to the USA a major continental landmass which consists of only immigrants (now) is way off the mark. Granted it will have no effect on those who like behind the electric gates of D4 and Big business..but I don't want to live in an Irish version of Johannesburg.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by bonkey

As an aside, the Irish as we know them (i.e. the Celts) came from eastern Europe. You know....just a touch north of Serbia, Croatia, and those other places who have formed large numbers of the immigrants/refugees who have come to Ireland. In other words, these people are actually closer to our ancestral cultures than we are. We came from their part of the world, not here.

The people living in Serbia and most Eastern European countries aren't the same people that lived there in the time of the Celts. Over the 1,000's of years groups of people have settled and moved on so to say they are close to our culture isn't necessarily correct.

If you ask me Irish culture has already been almost totally eroded by American and British influence. The only culture we have left is commercialised bull**** like Guiness and lerperchuans. If people like Mr White really cared they be more concerned with trying to re-introduce the Irish language, reestablish Irish traditions etc instead of loading all the blame onto immigrants.

dathi1

As an aside, the Irish as we know them (i.e. the Celts) came from eastern Europe. You know....just a touch north of Serbia, Croatia, and those other places who have formed large numbers of the immigrants/refugees who have come to Ireland. In other words, these people are actually closer to our ancestral cultures than we are. We came from their part of the world, not here.

they apparently came from the caucus region of the Russian steppes but that's not even proven. what about the pre-Celts native to here before the euro Celt invasion? just a thought.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

dathi1

If these immigrants are asylum seekers then they're not bloddy well illegal then are they!

if you really believe that 97% of Illegal immigrants entering this country are escaping Political persecution etc then you're way off te mark. Illegal immigrant (entered the country illegally)

Again incorrect term used. Asylum seekers not illegal immigrants

as above

Doesn't even deserve a rebuttal

re Johannesburg

if you're comfortable with that.