Why we must have a FTV scheme

watty

For a Nation (and I say this as 100% Irish, not a put the Irish down Brit) used to 2nd Rate RTE coverage (reception quality & transmission quality) and 3rd or 5th Rate cable (esp in Limerick) quality for BBC etc, Sky is a wonder

Many people here have for over 20 years had dreadful service and picture quality and used to paying for TV. Even when the Operators paid nothing to UK

Outside of Cable areas at one time for the full 10 or 11 Channels MMDS Operators used to charge whatever they could get. Documented cases of up to £IR47 per month when cable was under £IR10.

Chorus Digital MMDS is still wildly over priced compared to similar analog Cable, or Sky. Dunno what a Digital Cable sub prices are. But not many people get that compared with who should.

The Sky family Pack is roughly equivalent to buying 3 DVDs (not new cinemas titles) a month and set to go up: About €350 P.A.
Sky's target is to get about €675 p.a. by encouraging use of PAY interactive services too. All this money AND the VAT leaves the country.

A decent pack on Chorus Digital MMDS costs €460 P.A. now. While this service, when working, makes analog Cable and analog MMDS look rubbish, it isn't available everywhere.

Digital Cable rollout from NTL and Chorus have been pathetic, even annoying the OTDR. NTL MMDS upgrade to Digital is virtually non-existant.

Unlike UK our preference as a Nation has been to watch foriegn TV (UK) rather than finance and debate and improve our indiginous service. Without a major rethink we will effectively be a UK region for TV. In which case the people would get extra value if RTE was closed and the Licence fee given to the UK.

Is it any wonder that people think €60 a month (Is this what sport packs are?) is acceptable and people who should be spending the money on a better diet, books for Kids etc spend money on a service they can ill afford.

I'm not arguing to close RTE.
I'm arguing that the subscription part of Sky should be subject to OTDR as much as Chorus and NTL. That the VAT should be IRish not UK. That OTDR should bite harder in terms of price, customer support and rollout of Digital.

RTE needs more money and a revamp.

Ireland needs at least 8 FTV channels to make NON-pay TV viable, otherwise in the end an overwellming majority will watch BBC, TV3/ITV, C4, Sky etc and Irish TV will wither and die.

The Sports channels MUST be available separately rather than as most premium level. (They won't be much cheaper, but more people would then watch the hypothetical 8 Irish Free channels rather than UK ordinary TV).

There MUST be an Irish equivalent of Freeview. It is better on Digital Satellite than MMDS, Cable or DTT. The cost of two transponders (the present one and a 2nd) is a fraction of cost of adding a fifth terrestrial analog channel.

Digital Cable and Digital MMDS would have the Freeview channels as "must carry". Digital MMDS subscribers should be allowed to buy the box and have the Freeview channels, er free.

Irish Digital MMDS fills a niche between Digital Cable and Digital Satellite. We don't need the failed UHF IT'S TV DTT. Digital MMDS has more capacity.

Lennoxschips

The government should have gone for satellite TV back in the late 80s when they decided that MMDS was the wave of the future.

In a low population density rural country like Ireland, satellite offers by far the most economical and high-quality coverage.

But then again, we have eejits in government.

Tony

Originally posted by watty
All this money AND the VAT leaves the country.

I must disagree, Sky pay VAT to the revenue commissioners here and we charge them VAT on their install subsidies as well as vat on the customers contibution.

Tony

Tony, does our Sky Sub include Irish VAT at 12.5% ?
Or is it the case that what we are paying for, since it is sourced from outside the Republic of Ireland is not subject to Irish VAT and that possibly no VAT is being paid even to the inland Rev in the UK? on Irish subscriptions, in other words are Sky charging more here than in GB and yet no taxes are included so they pocket 100% ??
mm

mmmchips

ATTN: Post deleted.

It didn't make any contribution to the debate, and was possibly libellous.

Ronan.

icdg

Originally posted by watty
I'm arguing that the subscription part of Sky should be subject to OTDR as much as Chorus and NTL. That the VAT should be IRish not UK. That OTDR should bite harder in terms of price, customer support and rollout of Digital.

Can you really regulate a service provided outside the country in Ireland? All Sky's physical hardware is based in the UK, SES Astra is based in Luxembourg. I'm not sure it can be done under EU law. What if the UK ITC/OFCOM and the ODTR/CCR were to make differing, condtradictor decisions regarding the technical standards of the system? All the ODTR could reall regulate from Sky Ireland would be pricing and perhaps customer service, even that's based in Livingstone, outside the juristiction.

RTE needs more money and a revamp.

Ireland needs at least 8 FTV channels to make NON-pay TV viable,

And who will provide them? RTE certainly cannot without a big licence fee increase. But people don't want to pay a big licence fee increase.

otherwise in the end an overwellming majority will watch BBC, TV3/ITV, C4, Sky etc and Irish TV will wither and die.

Irish people want to watch UK TV. That's why Pay-TV - particularly cable in Dublin - has been so successful here. People don't get it to watch Sky - that's a secondary factor. They get it to watch BBC/ITV/C4, and get better reception on the Irish terrestrials. That doesn't mean we don't want or need RTE. RTE and UK TV viewing can co-exist - as the last 30 years have proven.

There MUST be an Irish equivalent of Freeview. It is better on Digital Satellite than MMDS, Cable or DTT. The cost of two transponders (the present one and a 2nd) is a fraction of cost of adding a fifth terrestrial analog channel.

But the Astra digital satellite platform is controlled by Sky. They control the EPG and the conditional access system. An Irish Freeview can't exist on DSat without either. So you have to deal on Sky's terms. Plus you must address the cost. An unsubsidised Sky STB is the best part of EUR 500. That is too much of an inital for most people, to get four extra Irish channels. (Yes there are the other FTA channels on DSat, but I'm not sure even these news and countless shopping channels would prove an incentive to fork out EUR 500).

The long and the short of it is that the only market for the product you describe are Sky subscribers who have cancelled their subscriptions. Not a lot of people. And not enough to make the system viable.

Tony

AFAIK its 21%. We charge 21% to them on box packages and customer install contribution also includes 21%. VAT must be paid to the local authorities so theres no way they can avoid this although they can claim back the vat that we charge them for box packages. The vat rate here is seriously hampering internet export business as we are amongst the highest in EU in terms of VAT rates. This is one of the reasons that goods here are more expensive than in UK and elsewhere

Tony

Originally posted by Man
Tony, does our Sky Sub include Irish VAT at 12.5% ?
Or is it the case that what we are paying for, since it is sourced from outside the Republic of Ireland is not subject to Irish VAT and that possibly no VAT is being paid even to the inland Rev in the UK? on Irish subscriptions, in other words are Sky charging more here than in GB and yet no taxes are included so they pocket 100% ??
mm

sceptre

Originally posted by Man
Tony, does our Sky Sub include Irish VAT at 12.5% ?
Or is it the case that what we are paying for, since it is sourced from outside the Republic of Ireland is not subject to Irish VAT and that possibly no VAT is being paid even to the inland Rev in the UK? on Irish subscriptions, in other words are Sky charging more here than in GB and yet no taxes are included so they pocket 100% ??
mm

It's 21% rather than 12.5% (TV is a luxury item from a taxation POV so it's taxed at the higher rate)

Because Sky's sales here are higher than £40,000 they pay Irish VAT.

watty

The UK regulates Skys UK operation.

If a channel *not* part of Sky subscription, not uploaded in UK does nastly stuff on Astra/Eutelsat 28.2 nothing UK Gov can do.

But the channels part of Sub in UK, even if uplinked from China are UK regulated in Content and even Price can be questioned

Ireland has no control over Irish Sub prices, composition or Content as UK has on Subscription package. Sky can do what they like.

Only Irish Uplink is regulated.


RTE / Sky deal ought to be renegotiated. Contracts usually have time limits or getout clauses and can be subject to Government passing laws.


I was told that the DD payments or credit card after install (ongoing sub) is UK VAT.

Obviosly whatever you buy in Tony's shop is Irish VAT.

Tony

Originally posted by watty
I was told that the DD payments or credit card after install (ongoing sub) is UK VAT.

I think you were mis informed all sky sales here are subject to VAT at 21%

Tony

Originally posted by Tony
AFAIK its 21%. We charge 21% to them on box packages and customer install contribution also includes 21%. VAT must be paid to the local authorities so theres no way they can avoid this although they can claim back the vat that we charge them for box packages. The vat rate here is seriously hampering internet export business as we are amongst the highest in EU in terms of VAT rates. This is one of the reasons that goods here are more expensive than in UK and elsewhere

Tony

Thats on the equipment and on the service you provide here, as you are Irish based and therefore are vat registered here.

I didn't know that as Sceptre has pointed out that in relation to VAT on Sky subscriptions:

It's 21% rather than 12.5% (TV is a luxury item from a taxation POV so it's taxed at the higher rate)

That would mean that 21% VAT is also included in Chorus and NTL subscriptions and this is on the Revenue website.
Theres no mention of satelite subscriptions there though.
The direct debit mandate for Sky sends our Euro's to Scotland, which means it is a UK service and obviously from a company that is not registered in the R.O.I

Sky must have an Irish registered entity though to be able to claim back the Irish VAT that , say Tony and other installers charge them.In theory that could be separate to the company, we pay our subscription to.
Does the Sky contract signed by Subscribers in ROI have a UK or an ROI Vat registration number on it or any at all?
That would shed some light here.
mm

Tony

Sky are a registered company in Ireland for VAT purposes and the product they supply is deemed to be Irish based for VAT purposes. This is one of the reasons why the free box offer was delayed in ireland as these matters were sorted out with the revenue. Sky's man in Ireland at the time told me this himself that Irish VAT would be paid over to the revenue here. As far as I know that situation has not changed.

Tony

watty

Originally posted by Man
Thats on the equipment and on the service you provide here, as you are Irish based and therefore are vat registered here.
--SNIP---
Does the Sky contract signed by Subscribers in ROI have a UK or an ROI Vat registration number on it or any at all?
That would shed some light here.
mm

It wouldn't.
Subsequent DD or credit card payments could be to another company.

Tony is certainly correct in terms of inital payment, box, install etc.

I'm really not convinced one way or the other regarding ongoing VAT. All the mail and statements come from UK. But occasionally (!!) my Ulsterbank correspondance comes from UK too.
I suppose one could ask Sky for a "Statement" of DD payments made showing VAT paid. The rate would be a giveaway.

If you are cancelling Sky permenantly with NO thought of ever renewing (remember box & stuff stilll yours and still works unlike MMDS), then CANCELL DD too. I rang Sky to renew after a year and discovered the DD at bank was still in force so they "reconnected" me without any signature, form or DD agreemant and Pay channels active in a few minutes. This could also be seen as a convienencee.
I do check my back statements (you all do don't you -- lots of nodding heads) to make sure all DD are as they are supposed to be as a DD allows a Company to take any amount of money it likes, unlike a SO.

Well theres another sure fire way of checking this.
Do pubs and clubs and hotels that have Sky subscriptions reclaim Vat on those subscriptions?
Presumably a Sky subscription or a cable sub in a pub or hotel is a business expense for them.
If they do not or cannot then, why??
mm

Tony

yes they do

Aha, thats that then,just in the interests of clarity, didn't want to be annoying you Tony:D

Now I'm off to Bord Fáilte to set up my guest house:D
And by Golly it's going to be the least visited guest house in Ireland:D
But if It saves me paying VAT on my Sky subscription:p

mm

Our man in Havana

No need man

Just get yourself vat registered. That should be fun by itself:D

Tony

its easier than that just set yourself up as a sky shop and get a free card no sub, no vat

Tony