IOFFL Constitution (Help Needed From All)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Boston

The aims and objectives of the organistation, and when it will be concidered that these have been met, and the organisation can disband.

ozt9vdujny3srf

How about :

IrelandOFFline campaign for the establishment and maintenance of an internet service in ireland that is acceptable relative to that of our european counterparts.

morges

Originally posted by TruckledUncivil
How about :

IrelandOFFline campaign for the establishment and maintenance of an internet service in ireland that is acceptable relative to that of our european counterparts.

Why does Irelandoffline feel that it needs a constitution at this stage? Is this not a side show to distract focus from the real issue in hand?

morges

dahamsta

Why does Irelandoffline feel that it needs a constitution at this stage?

Well, I can't speak for IrelandOffline, but I feel that a constitution is needed now because: a) the membership has grown substantially in the last six months; and/or b) oligarchy is no longer suitable for the organisation.

Is this not a side show to distract focus from the real issue in hand?

You'd need to check the IRC log from last week, but I don't believe that the constitution was suggested by the committee. Even if it was, it's a worthwhile distraction in my view.

adam

morges

Gates and Allen set up Microsoft in 1975.

They didn't even bother incorporating a company (Microsoft Corp) until 1981.

Didn't do them any harm to leave the constitutional stuff to one side until they had a few billion in the bank!

http://www.microsoft.com/msft/sec/FY02/10k2002.htm


morges

dahamsta

Wee bit of a difference between Microsoft and IrelandOffline.

adam

Delphi91

Originally posted by morges
Gates and Allen set up Microsoft in 1975.

They didn't even bother incorporating a company (Microsoft Corp) until 1981.

...

Microsoft would not be very high on my list of companies to compare IrelandOffline to!!

In fact, it probably wouldn't even be on the list...*shiverrrr*

Mike

MarkR

How about, at the very end, we promise that when the revolution comes, that damned rat is the first against the wall!

ciderandhavoc

I've been responsible for drafting a few of these in the past.

I've proposed a simple outline below, you'd need a clearly defined document that is specific where necessary, but also vague and stretchable to allow the organisation to function on a day to day basis.

1. Name and aims
2. Committee (roles as clearly defined and overall role of committee)
3. (to provide for anything else in the organisation, for example, regional groups, committees etc. and how they interact with the organisation.)
4. Finance (added this just for interest), you should probably deal with how and when money should be spent, and also deal with where it should come from (membership subscriptions, donations, corporate donations etc (would the document identify two types of donors? member and corporate etc.).

I can go into more detail if required, but do keep it simple, with enough room for movememt.

Clearly defined aims and objectives are really important, this could become a debate on the future of IOFFL so be careful.

Regards
ciderandhavoc
(David Cochrane - email@davidcochrane.com

Xian

Originally posted by dahamsta
... I feel that a constitution is needed now because: a) the membership has grown substantially in the last six months; and/or b) oligarchy is no longer suitable for the organisation.

Too right. As to "oligarchy" (rule by the few) up until recently it's been out of necessity. No mistake about it, the IO Committee is no secret society. Anyone could have come forward at the AGM with not so much as two proofs of purchase from a box of Rice Krispies as credentials and become a Committee Member if they would do the work but noone did. Hell, I've been through a more stringent selection process getting a Blue Peter badge. I'm sure I'm not the only one glad to see more of the membership offering to help, setting up Chapters etc.

The fact is that IO has gotten this far by being a meritocracy with kudos going to those who do the fact-trawling, report writing, meeting and general donkey work to keep things moving. The more people to do this, the better for IO. It's a simple equation - you want to get heard? put in the hours.

Xian

Originally posted by Boston
The aims and objectives of the organistation

http://www.irelandoffline.org/home/staticpages/index.php?page=20020326145648812

• Universal flat rate (unmetered) access to the internet for all users.
• Complete Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) by Eircom.
• Universal access to broadband services for all users.

and when it will be conidered that these have been met, and the organisation can disband.

Well the first and second are unequivocal. The first should be met when wholesale flat rate access is made available, the second, technically, has been achieved, although it hasn't done us much good. I've had my beef about the third because it is a poorly thought out "how long is a piece of string" objective. Have we achieved the objective with the introduction of DSL? Will we have achieved it when it is competitively priced? If so, what about those outside the range of the exchange? Personally, I think the growing debate on FCC proposals for reforming RF spectrum regulation falls within IO's remit, as does the promotion, suitably amended, of the fibre rings project. These have the promise of being long term solutions to Ireland's broadband requirements. Specifically I'd like to see someone or other (Muck and yellum being the obvious candidates) putting together a comprehensive IO policy statement on the spectrum material.

When can IO disband? How far do you want to take it?

Dustaz

I guess now is as good a time as any to air a concern ive always had about objective 3. As Xian said, its a bit vague. Even in the US there are fairly sizable areas that do not have access to broadband (excluding satellite of course, if that was counted then there would be no need for objective 3 )

So when will objective 3 be achieved? Well, personally i think it is when ESAT and Eircom's DSL Rollouts drop below a certain price and extend to certain areas.

The price is a contentious one but I would see €60 for at least 512 access as a good beginning.

As for locations Esats rollout seems to be a good model. It covers citys as well as fairly large areas outside citys. If it continues within this model, and objective 1 is achieved, then Ireland Offline will probably have to wind down in its present form.

The above scenario would leave places like say Ballyjamesduff in a pretty bad place as regards broadband. Ireland Offline however, is not a broadband only group. Once FRIACO is upon us and DSL is available to cities and large towns, Its remit is over. It could not continue to 'play the poor mouth' so to speak under these conditions.

I suppose this is where a new group could rise from a disbanded Ireland Offline to campaign for RADSL, ISDL, the fibre rings and related issues like wireless and cable.

If this new group could keep more or less the same membership (although i really doubt it could keep the name), I think it would have an important role to play for years to come.

sceptre

Originally posted by morges
Gates and Allen set up Microsoft in 1975.

They didn't even bother incorporating a company (Microsoft Corp) until 1981.

Didn't do them any harm to leave the constitutional stuff to one side until they had a few billion in the bank!

Actually, the partnership percentages and duties were hammered out long before either of them went to see Ed Roberts at MITS in Albuquerque (Microsoft's first sale) in 1975. The incorporation as a limted company may not have come till 1981 (chiefly to facilitate share options for employees & obviously the separate legal personality thing) but did you honestly think a shark like Gates would wait six years before organising anything legal wrt his company?

Xian

Originally posted by Dustaz
(although i really doubt it could keep the name)

How about "The Real Irish Internet Association" ;-)

dahamsta

I suppose this is where a new group could rise from a disbanded Ireland Offline to campaign for RADSL, ISDL, the fibre rings and related issues like wireless and cable.

And pricing. Although obviously IrelandOffline has to concern itself with the current, ludicrous pricing, I was always of the opinion that this should be secondary to the primary objective of rollouts. I always felt that when this was achieved, the baton should be handed to another group to continue pressure for expansion and affordable pricing. As you suggest, it could effectively be an internal relay, but I think it would be important to start with a completely new remit. Then again, a constitution might preclude that. It would require redefinition of the objectives, but I think that given the input on this and other threads, some feel that it's necessary anyway.

How about "The Real Irish Internet Association"

Now that was funny.

adam

SkepticOne

Gates/Microsoft timeline here.With regards to goals and objectives, I agree that more work needs to be done on these.

Objective #1: Flat-rate

Do we mean these bulk discount services by UTV and ESAT? Does it need to be 24/7?

Objective #2: LLU:

Isn't this more a means to an end? The idea was to encourage competition over existing infrastructure. In that sense it is like FRIACO. Why then isn't FRIACO part of our objectives. I'm aware of the technical differences.

Objective #3.

Affordable broadband: What is affordable (<= 60 euros?). What is broadband (FCC working definition >=200mbits/sec?)

What percentage of homes need to be have broadband avialable? Town by town basis - what sise of town (>=1500?).

On a more general note, what happens when (if) broadband becomes generally affordable in say Dublin and Cork? Given the populations of these cities, this forum would naturally become a place where people discuss the finer points of the competing services (ping times etc). It is already happening now, of course. Should these discussions be moved over to Net/Comms in order to concentrate on achieving the goals, i.e., getting broadband out to more towns?

Personally, I see IOFFL shifting towards a much more regional structure along the lines of Broadband4Britain. There will always be major differences though.

ciderandhavoc

Can I at this point just note that the discussion has changed to a more idealogical one, about the future of ireland offline.

Maybe, in terms of a constitution, the document should be how the organisation can function on an annual basis, is: between annual general meetings, when at that stage the fully paid up members can vote on such matters as future direction.

Putting something like that (in "that" I mean the specific goals people want as outlined in this discussion, and these tend not to be the same all the time) make the organisation too strict to be able to manoeuvre.

Instead of goals, have aims. Perhaps something like:

The aim of the organisation shall be:
1. The represent the interests of the consumer in relation to internet access in The Republic of Ireland.

Something like that gives the organisation a hell of alot of movement, in terms of the future, buts it quite focussed (who and generally why).

Things like specific campaigns and the like can be decided by AGMS, as I've said already.

Regards
ciderandhavoc

SkepticOne

Originally posted by ciderandhavoc
The aim of the organisation shall be:
1. The represent the interests of the consumer in relation to internet access in The Republic of Ireland.

This would change the group from being a goal oriented to being a consumer oriented group. I'm sure there is a need for such a group, but for many, affordable broadband and flat-rate is more than just one of the campaigns of IOFFL but the basis of the group. That's been my understanding, anyway.

ciderandhavoc

it WAS just an example,

perhaps something to do with bringing the costs down, and the speed up. I don't know! It was just a bloody suggestion!

SkepticOne

Sorry, I didn't want it to come across harsh. Your point is very valid and I think it's the start of a debate that needs to happen. Should the group be more focused or have a more general remit?

ciderandhavoc

You see, this was basically my point in my first contribution to the thread!

Draft a constitution that allows the organisation to function and operate, leave the Raison d'Etre to annual meetings to a seperate "Mission Statement" that can be changed IF and WHEN necessary.

A constitution allows the organisation to work, it does not necessarily need to get bogged down into the "realities" of operation, other than function.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by ciderandhavoc
You see, this was basically my point in my first contribution to the thread!

I misunderstood. I thought by flexibility you meant flexibility in achieving specific goals.

ciderandhavoc

I think what I meant by flexibility that by leaving the organisational (in terms of existence) issues out, and focussing more on operational issues, a constitution could be drafted more effectively, whilst avoiding a HUGE debate on the future direction of IOFFL.

That kind of thing can be discussed annually (next years goals for committee, campaigns) etc.

But now I'm tired and confused!!! Well I'm off to bed.

Rgds
CnH

sceptre

I think ciderandhavoc made a very good point. It's pointless restricting the remit of the organisation in any document, leaving to hassle later if the remit is to be widened.

IMHO, solve the problem by taking the same solution as most companies when setting up the memorandum and articles of association. Give the organisation (before anyone barks - the organisation, not the committee) the power to do pretty much anything - but set the three primary goals as listed primary goals.

Also, for possible future disbanding of the organisation, a solution to "how much is enough" would be to give the membership in general meeting the power to disband the organisation when it feels the main issues and targets have been met. In the future as the main goals are substantially realised, it's true to guess that the organisation will become regional organisations catering for the needs of disenfranchised areas (unless it becomes a general consumer organisation - I've a feeling that it won't, at least not on an organised level)

SkepticOne

I take both sceptre's and ciderandhavoc's points. I just get a bit jumpy when what appears to be a very general remit is written into the constitution even though it might be necessary. Even though the targets might be changed annually, the focus needs to be kept on them, imo.

sceptre

Originally posted by SkepticOne
the focus needs to be kept on them, imo.

Too right. They're the reasons the organisation exists. As the primary targets, everything else is secondary (obviously imho).

SkepticOne

Originally posted by sceptre
Too right. They're the reasons the organisation exists. As the primary targets, everything else is secondary (obviously imho).

If this concept could be somehow explicitly written into the constitution, I'd be quite happy.

"The primary purpose of the group is to carry out certain objectives. These are stated in [...] and are subject to change only at a general meeting." type of thing. This could, of course, be expressed in a variety of ways.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Dustaz

Originally posted by sceptre
Too right. They're the reasons the organisation exists. As the primary targets, everything else is secondary (obviously imho).

Absolutly.

Being perfectly honest, i dont want to care as much as i do for much longer. Once the objectives have been realised to the groups general satisfaction, i think most of the membership will be happy to dissolve Ireland Offline and mutate it into something new.

TBH, I think including anything that suggests an annual subscription is the wrong focus. If things go really spiffingly well, we might have a friaco type deal this time next year and possibly lower broadband prices. Things have moved on innordinatly well since this time last year. Crossing every appendage i have, i really dont think theres any need to include anything about annual duties (apart from the AGM - lets hope the next one is the last, if it even happens).

Call me ludicrously optimistic, but i havent felt this optimistic since i heard about the launch of SNL.

ozt9vdujny3srf

I personally think the objectives should be elss soecific, my original suggestion applied to now and the future, the standards required of a country's communications infrastructure is constantly changing, in 10 years time there may be an organisation campaigning for 10 gig connection over the net, and as long as our country is lagging behind, there will always be a need for IOFFL