David Trimble on the Republic

Typedef

It is written into the GFA that in the event of a majority voting to enter into a 32 county Republic, legislation shall come to pass to implement this. This is the accepted wisdom.

For two reasons I can't accept a thirty two country Republic.

Number one because it would 'force' Unionism into a Republic, lots of whom are ordinary decent people who simply want to live under Britian and I most certainly would not want to abrograte the National wishes of another person, unless that person is hell bent on abrogating mine and honestly, I don't think the Unionists care.

Number two, if a Nationalist majority were to outvote Unionism, it would cause a civil war and basically no one wants war. If you think that the Loyalist paramilitaries would not agitate to resist a thirty two county Republic, then how could one countenance statements like "Ulster will fight, Ulster will be right" and so on? I think it highly likely Loyalist paramilitaries would resist the abolition of the Union (and a redrawing of the border for that matter), however once the border was redrawn the Unionists would still be part of the Union, whilst under a thirty two country 'solution' Ireland would be left with the ongoing security nightmare that the Loyalists in the North have stated would come to pass in the event of moves towards a United Ireland.

So simply the concept that that Northern Unionists should 'ever' be forced into a Republic is in my opinon suprious for the two main reasons given above.

MDR

The South I think would, that is my opinion and I have offered evidence for that.

The evidence you use from what I have read, is mostly drawn from the original make up of the main political parites in the Republic. The two states, have had 80 years to grow apart, not mention the troubles to irrepairable damage

The North? It's difficult to say.

Its not really, informal poles that are conducted in the North always come out with a large majority in favour of retaining the Union. Me thinks even Sinn Fein has conceeded this, once or twice, but amn't sure.

I lived in Northen Ireland for a long time, I have close friends who come from Unionist and Nationalist backgrounds, most whom distance themselves from their origins to a certain extent. And I can tell you with a high degree of certainity that I can't see a 'Yes' vote in the short to medium term, who knows what will happen in the long term, hopefully will be a federal europe at that stage ... It all comes down to money, they know they are better off (finiancally in Britain)

I'm not really seeing how a revisitation of the Boundary Comission is flawed

Would you divide Belfast into East and West, with a new Berlin Wall ? Well no it would actually be a bit more complex than that, 'cos the North is mostly unionist and the south is a good mix. So what we will do is divide the North & East off from the West and call the South no man's land ?

Or how about south Tyrone, would you propose putting a wall around Dungannon and the other few Unionist enclaves for its own protection and giving the rest back to the republic. We would need to rename it the Gaza Strip ...

The population is too fragmented with in the province, to attempt to revisit the Boundary Commission.

Bateman

Remember people. The republic would have to vote in favour of a united Ireland as well, and don't think that's a foregone conclusion.

When you think about it none of the mainstream political parties would be for it because for example FF would lose their position as the dominant party in an all Ireland because of the completely different political landscape.

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If this is all that "Southern Unionism" has to offer then it doesn't even exist. A majority of people in the South voted in favour of the GFA clearly because they felt that it furthered Nationalism. And those who didn't? Well their primary motive was probably good old Articles Two and Three, which have now been thrown into history. So between the two blocs, I think its inconceivable that any party in the Republic would go against unification. As previosly stated, it would be suicide. Irish parties have always been willing to work within the circumsatances in which they find themselves.






>that's not necessary and is incongrous with the compassionate nature that this State so aptly proports in many humanitarian situations World Wide.

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Bollocks. Its consent, and consent is the holy grail for Unionists. Its them that insisted that consent be written into the GFA, and your argument is contrary to the spirit and the letter of the GFA. I assume then that you voted anti-agreement, and consider yourself as such. Or if its "just as aspect of the agreement that you happen to disagree with", then its apretty big one.



(in fact Mark Durcan has recently set that position out as being the goal of the SDLP).

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The extraordinary scenes of celebrations from the SDLP that followed the announcing of a power-sharing assembly would suggest that Durkan is delighted with power-sharing and anything more would rock his fragile boat.

Bateman

Me thinks even Sinn Fein has conceeded this, once or twice, but amn't sure.

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Well its tacitly conceded in the GFA isn't it? The principle that the people of the island of Ireland and only the people of the island of Ireland can excercise their right to self-determination and that if majorities vote in favour in both parts of a United Ireland then this will come to pass?
Sinn Féin signed up to the agreement, make no mistake, they have long ago accepted partition.

Typedef

The evidence you use from what I have read, is mostly drawn from the original make up of the main political parites in the Republic. The two states, have had 80 years to grow apart, not mention the troubles to irrepairable damage

Ok, lets take an example from the 1980s. Garrett Fitzgerald signed the Anglo-Irish agreement, yet another Fine Gael Taoiseach, during a time when the troubles were as bad as ever.

This I think is proof enough that even the most supposedly (pro-British) parites in Ireland are, when you cut right down to it, quite nationalist.

Its not really, informal poles that are conducted in the North always come out with a large majority in favour of retaining the Union

Perhaps so, perhaps if you supply some numbers from the poles? In any case, if one looks at how Northern Nationalists (or Catholics if you prefare) actually vote, for the most part it is the SDLP and Sinn Fein (in that order). Both main nationalist parties are in favour of total re-Unification so I find it incongrous to claim that such a long established policy from both of these parties is in fact going to prove to be a fallacy in terms of actual votes on Unification in the event demographics bear out the current rates of growth and Nationalism is in the majority in the North.

hopefully will be a federal europe at that stage

Actually, hopefully that will never happen.

Would you divide Belfast into East and West, with a new Berlin Wall ?

That is generally what would 'have' to be done, and yes before you even make the point, I accept that at best, such division would be a logistic nightmare.

I do have to say though that if (and probably when) the Nationalists are the majority in the North (given current population growth rates) I would rather the Unionists were given the option to repartition, that is all.

The population is too fragmented with in the province, to attempt to revisit the Boundary Commission.

However that doesn't really address the fact (working from the Nationalist majority hypothesis in the future) that if the provence were not repartitioned, the extreme Loyalists, you know the ones I mean, like Ian Paisley who say things like "Catholics breed like rabbits" and "Mary was the whore of Rome", would most likely orchestrate a war against this Republic and it's people.

Typedef

I assume then that you voted anti-agreement, and consider yourself as such. Or if its "just as aspect of the agreement that you happen to disagree with", then its apretty big one.

Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups Bateman. I voted in favour of the Agreement because it to quote you "furthered Nationalism". Anyway.

Yes the principal of consent is part of the Good Friday agreement, however as I have stated a good few times, I don't think majority rule implys real consent when one deals with diametrically opposed socio-polical ethoses.

That is why incidentally power-sharing exists in Northern Ireland, because Majority Rule just doesn't cut it.

I'm glad we had this opportunity to talk.

rien_du_tout

I dont think the threat of a civil war is the right reason not to re-unify, on condition of majority wanting it balh blah blah........ If it's wanted then it should be done. Does anyone know if the GFA could continue with re-unification??

I dont like the repartitioning idea because it's partion that gave us what we have today. I think it has proved to increase division socially and culturally as can be seen from differences between north and south which have devoloped over a short enough period. Accepting long term full-partition (that being some of ireland still under london-rule) would be no better than leaving it like it is.


Also Typedef , under your idea we should have the immediate partition of nationalist and unionist areas. Why do you feel it could only happen at a stage when the majority wants reunification?? Dont you think its strange to say that its ok for the unionists to be in the majority and keep the nationalist areas, but if the nationalists get a majority they have to give up the unionist areas?? Logic there is flawed I feel.


On whether the north would vote for reunification or not. I've seen a poll from a leading unionist newspaper, which was on the net, which had a 40% vote (i think) for "do you think you could in the future vote for a united ireland". I'll try and find the page....it was about a year ago.

I really think there is no question about the result in the south. People individually would have some slight fear of the north, the economic concequences and such but there would be a general happiness and embrace of it I feel. I wouldnt count on the 9*% though.........

dathi1

when are the censes figures out? I hear the word "Dual Consent" being banded around a lot lately.

Typedef

Also Typedef , under your idea we should have the immediate partition of nationalist and unionist areas. Why do you feel it could only happen at a stage when the majority wants reunification??

Actually you are right. I do think repartition should happen now, but, I'm not so stupid as to think that the Unionists would give up any of the Six counties, unless it was thought the entire State might be ceded to the Republic. Not fair, not just, but, reality.

MDR

Ok, lets take an example from the 1980s. Garrett Fitzgerald signed the Anglo-Irish agreement, yet another Fine Gael Taoiseach, during a time when the troubles were as bad as ever.

Mrs Thatcher signed it as well, does that maker her pro-reunification. You see I have trouble with your read on history, you see the Irish Policitical (also that of the people) support for the anglo-irish agreement and the GFA as being evidence of a desire for reunification. I disagree, I simply see them as been driven by the will of the people and the polictical establishment to see peace in the north, nothing more.

In any case, if one looks at how Northern Nationalists (or Catholics if you prefare) actually vote, for the most part it is the SDLP and Sinn Fein (in that order).

You see the lines between unionist and nationalist aren't nearily as clear as you would like them to be. Many people vote for nationalist political parties because they feel they are best represented by them, many people still vote FF or FG even though they don't agree with _all_ their policies. This exaggerated in the north of Ireland, I will conceed thought that the rise in support for SF is also a rise in support for reunification, however dispite this i still do not believe that policatal party voting trends overall in the north is a fair reflection or how a reunification vote would go.

Actually, hopefully that will never happen.

Suffice to say we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

the extreme Loyalists, you know the ones I mean, like Ian Paisley who say things like "Catholics breed like rabbits" and "Mary was the whore of Rome", would most likely orchestrate a war against this Republic and it's people.

any changes you make to the Norths boundary, will be seen by the Unionist community as a whole, not just the extremists as an attack upon their home and they will defend it in kind. The loyalist extremism you have refered to, is no better or worse, and no less founded than its nationalist counterpart. Have no illusions that, if you start playing with the border, you will start find bombs in Dublin. Your idea of repartition is not going placate them in the way you hope.

If you made me king of the world for a day, I would break the union, make Northern Ireland, a soverign (I use the word loosely, cos I don't believe it exists), independent (again I use the word loosely) Nation, free from both tradition, a sort of king Solomon cutting the bady in half (or was that King David ?).

Bateman

>If you made me king of the world for a day, I would break the union, make Northern Ireland, a soverign (I use the word loosely, cos I don't believe it exists), independent (again I use the word loosely) Nation, free from both tradition, a sort of king Solomon cutting the bady in half (or was that King David ?).

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Against the will of nearly everyone there. Well thats democracy for you.

BJJ

More hatred and Racism towards Eire from Trimble,

just typical

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BJJ

daveirl


Education time


Here in Ireland we speak our own dialect, we don't all speak the Queens English.
Irish people use there own unique expressions and phrases.

Just like how Americans might say "I put the groceries from the liquor store in the trunk"
"Do you eat Candy?"

Or how Aussies may say "G'day sport, what's your game?"
We use Eire and many other Irish words in every day life such as

"How's the craic?"

So



What's the craic,
are you English or Aussie ?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BJJ

Education time



Yes
the word EIRE is constantly used almost everyday in Ireland
it is the word used to describe the Republic of Ireland and can be found on stamps, in history books, on flags, banners, in bars, in the proclamation of the Irish Republic, on our Coinage or Currency, often even Americans can be heard singing "Eireann go Breagh".

Now seen that you seem to have a problem with the term Eire describing the Irish Republic, my guess is that you must be ENGLISH




?

sceptre

trollfeeding

daveirl

This post has been deleted.