Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

getz

for a number of years there has been problems some of justice when a freemason has been involved,in the UK, a parliament select committee was set up to look in to the matter of possible corruption,the committee was told how two asian businessman stumbled on a masonic dinner at a hotel,and were prosecuted on trumped up charges of assulting police officers,they found that freemasonary was also involved in relation to discredited and eventually disbanded west midlands serious crime squad,they also found that,freemasonary may also have been a factor in the stalker affair.do any of you remember that one ?john stalker[not a freemason] was deputy chief constable of the gr manchester police,and was sent to northern ireland to investigate the shoot to kill policy, he produced a critical intrim report in to the circumstances surrounding the shootings,and clashed with the RUC chief constable john hermon[freemason] stalker said he was shut out of key decisions,john stalker claimed his suspension was a pretext to remove him before he caused a major political controversy,he was replaced by colin sampson[freemason] chief constable of the yorkshire police,the report has never got published[i wonder why] .because the home office committee found wide spread suspicion of freemasonic corruption, now freemasons who join the judiciary or the police now have to declare their membership,this also applys to magistrates, crown prosecutors, prison staff,and probation officers,yep they are misunderstood.

Absolam

getz wrote: »

for a number of years there has been problems some of justice when a freemason has been involved,

Specifically?

getz wrote: »

in the UK, a parliament select committee was set up to look in to the matter of possible corruption,the committee was told how two asian businessman stumbled on a masonic dinner at a hotel,and were prosecuted on trumped up charges of assulting police officers

Actually the select committee never reported on this alleged incident, it was an anti masonic writer who claimed it had been brought before the select committee.

getz wrote: »

they found that freemasonary was also involved in relation to discredited and eventually disbanded west midlands serious crime squad,

In fact the select committee found that it 'cannot entirely exclude the possibility that it (freemasonry) may have been a contributory factor', but found no evidence that freemasonry had been actually been a factor at all. The Serious Crime Squad was disbanded due to allegations of malpractice over a span of decades, and at the time of disbanding five of almost one hundred members were believed to be Freemasons.

getz wrote: »

they also found that,freemasonary may also have been a factor in the stalker affair.do any of you remember that one ?john stalker[not a freemason] was deputy chief constable of the gr manchester police,and was sent to northern ireland to investigate the shoot to kill policy, he produced a critical intrim report in to the circumstances surrounding the shootings,and clashed with the RUC chief constable john hermon[freemason] stalker said he was shut out of key decisions,john stalker claimed his suspension was a pretext to remove him before he caused a major political controversy,he was replaced by colin sampson[freemason] chief constable of the yorkshire police,the report has never got published[i wonder why] .

But again, to actually be specific, John Stalker himself said he did not believe he was a victim of masonic conspiracies, or of Masons, and the select committee specifically stated that it 'could not conclude freemasonry played any significant part' in the affair.

getz wrote: »

because the home office committee found wide spread suspicion of freemasonic corruption, now freemasons who join the judiciary or the police now have to declare their membership,this also applys to magistrates, crown prosecutors, prison staff,and probation officers,yep they are misunderstood.

Not because the committee found corruption, but because it found widespread suspicion of corruption, people who join the UK public service are asked, not required, to place their names on voluntary registers of Freemasons.

getz

Absolam wrote: »

Specifically?


Actually the select committee never reported on this alleged incident, it was an anti masonic writer who claimed it had been brought before the select committee.



In fact the select committee found that it 'cannot entirely exclude the possibility that it (freemasonry) may have been a contributory factor', but found no evidence that freemasonry had been actually been a factor at all. The Serious Crime Squad was disbanded due to allegations of malpractice over a span of decades, and at the time of disbanding five of almost one hundred members were believed to be Freemasons.


But again, to actually be specific, John Stalker himself said he did not believe he was a victim of masonic conspiracies, or of Masons, and the select committee specifically stated that it 'could not conclude freemasonry played any significant part' in the affair.


Not because the committee found corruption, but because it found widespread suspicion of corruption, people who join the UK public service are asked, not required, to place their names on voluntary registers of Freemasons.

i will respond to those points,certainly the person who reported the incident to the committee was anti/mason,[you would not have expeced a freemason to have reported it ,would you ? i never said john stalker said it was a freemason conspiracy,stalker was not around when the other chief inspector [a freemason who would be more acceptable to the RUC was sent in] it was the committee who came up with the alleged conection,all john stalker said in his book was that when i sat down at the desk with the chief of the police in northern ireland,a cigarette packet was handed over on it was said ,i know your granparents were catholic,this was denied by the RUC,as far as the committees report went,it said nothing so undermines public confidence in public institutions as the knowledge that some public servants are members of a secret society ,one whose aims is mutrual self- advancement,because of the belief of coverups,the goverment wanted to reopen the case,this was blocked by the house of lords[another freemason pit of snakes ]the main reason the british goverment could not make it unlawfull to ban freemasons from entering public services was because,jack straws words the decision not to make it compulsory was in the light of the EU court of human rights judgment against the state of italy,[yes freemasons are in high places,even the republic has its fair share,]when dick roche was asked about how many freemasons were there in the goverment ?he gave the typical politicians answer,question it is alleged that the irish goverment has many high-ranking freemasons,answer,i am not one of them,there are many decent people in the masons and opus dei,but i havent been a member of any of them.let the public make their own mind up

baalthor

They're running a charity event for a hospital near where I live.

Not sure the secrecy works so well in small rural communities ...

Emme

baalthor wrote: »

They're running a charity event for a hospital near where I live.

Not sure the secrecy works so well in small rural communities ...

Sure they have Masonic dinners where Masons wives bring along a dish for the dessert buffet table, it's all very cosy in the country!:D

thepcgp

Not because the committee found corruption, but because it found widespread suspicion of corruption

Absolam, key point here. Well done and an excellent response. I was relieved to come back to this discussion and see I have very little to add in reply to Getz's 'proof' of a Masonic conspiracy. Suspicion of Freemasons has caused far more trouble in society than Freemasonry ever has, if it has caused any at all. It's sort of like suspicion of witchcraft. Getz, you are on a witch-hunt here, plain and simple.

certainly the person who reported the incident to the committee was anti/mason

Getz, doesn't that obviously make the claim biased? And why certainly? Is the world divided into Masons and anti-Masons? What about those who are impartial?

it was the committee who came up with the alleged conection

Getz, this is incorrect. The committee was not established to allege anything, it was set up to prove or disprove the claims; to determine whether there was a connection, due to widespread accusations (like yours). It was determined that they were unfounded (like yours).

as far as the committees report went,it said nothing

Really? Nothing? At all?

this was blocked by the house of lords[another freemason pit of snakes ]

You're on a serious rant here buddy. I have family who were in the Masons and I find this kind of stuff offensive. Why don't you go back to your Google searches and try and dig up something substantial? I'll tell you why, because you can't. Of all the Masonic conspiracy crap I've read on the internet (and it's a lot believe me) I have yet to find one shred that is either believable or verifiable. And in spite of all the additional 'information' you've posted here, Getz, that situation remains unchanged.

the main reason the british goverment could not make it unlawfull to ban freemasons from entering public services was because,jack straws words the decision not to make it compulsory was in the light of the EU court of human rights judgment against the state of italy,[yes freemasons are in high places,even the republic has its fair share,]

Getz, guess what, I looked this up. Thanks for the tip, I found this very interesting. In GRANDE ORIENTE D`ITALIA DI PALAZZO GIUSTINIANI v. Italy (No. 2), 26740/02, No. 97, the statutory obligation for Freemasons to declare their membership when applying for regional authority posts was found to be in violation of human rights. Should Catholics have to declare their beliefs when applying for such posts? Hindus? Wiccans? Jedis? What about members of the Lions Club, or Rotary Club members? Should they have to declare their membership? Of course not, why should they? It doesn't make any sense and no reasonable-minded person would suggest it. So why Freemasons? Why? I ask you, why should they have to declare their membership? What is it about Freemasonry that leads you or anyone to think that they should have to declare their membership when applying for regional authority positions? I would agree with this ruling by the EU Courts, such an obligation is a violation of basic human rights. Jack Straw was right to make the decision he did.

And guess what, Getz? Jack Straw also stated that there had been "no evidence" of any "unacceptable behaviour by Freemason judges". Wow, no evidence. What a surprise.

i am not one of them,there are many decent people in the masons and opus dei,but i havent been a member of any of them.let the public make their own mind up

This is a typical answer? I would have thought your typical answer would be something like, "I can neither confirm nor deny these claims...". I think Mr. Roche gave a 21st century answer to a 19th century question.

Getz, get with it bud. You're on a witch-hunt, and guess what, you don't have much company. Face the facts. Freemasons are just normal people. They aren't conspiring to take over the world.

getz

thepcgp wrote: »

Absolam, key point here. Well done and an excellent response. I was relieved to come back to this discussion and see I have very little to add in reply to Getz's 'proof' of a Masonic conspiracy. Suspicion of Freemasons has caused far more trouble in society than Freemasonry ever has, if it has caused any at all. It's sort of like suspicion of witchcraft. Getz, you are on a witch-hunt here, plain and simple.

Getz, doesn't that obviously make the claim biased? And why certainly? Is the world divided into Masons and anti-Masons? What about those who are impartial?

Getz, this is incorrect. The committee was not established to allege anything, it was set up to prove or disprove the claims; to determine whether there was a connection, due to widespread accusations (like yours). It was determined that they were unfounded (like yours).

Really? Nothing? At all?

You're on a serious rant here buddy. I have family who were in the Masons and I find this kind of stuff offensive. Why don't you go back to your Google searches and try and dig up something substantial? I'll tell you why, because you can't. Of all the Masonic conspiracy crap I've read on the internet (and it's a lot believe me) I have yet to find one shred that is either believable or verifiable. And in spite of all the additional 'information' you've posted here, Getz, that situation remains unchanged.

Getz, guess what, I looked this up. Thanks for the tip, I found this very interesting. In GRANDE ORIENTE D`ITALIA DI PALAZZO GIUSTINIANI v. Italy (No. 2), 26740/02, No. 97, the statutory obligation for Freemasons to declare their membership when applying for regional authority posts was found to be in violation of human rights. Should Catholics have to declare their beliefs when applying for such posts? Hindus? Wiccans? Jedis? What about members of the Lions Club, or Rotary Club members? Should they have to declare their membership? Of course not, why should they? It doesn't make any sense and no reasonable-minded person would suggest it. So why Freemasons? Why? I ask you, why should they have to declare their membership? What is it about Freemasonry that leads you or anyone to think that they should have to declare their membership when applying for regional authority positions? I would agree with this ruling by the EU Courts, such an obligation is a violation of basic human rights. Jack Straw was right to make the decision he did.

And guess what, Getz? Jack Straw also stated that there had been "no evidence" of any "unacceptable behaviour by Freemason judges". Wow, no evidence. What a surprise.

This is a typical answer? I would have thought your typical answer would be something like, "I can neither confirm nor deny these claims...". I think Mr. Roche gave a 21st century answer to a 19th century question.

Getz, get with it bud. You're on a witch-hunt, and guess what, you don't have much company. Face the facts. Freemasons are just normal people. They aren't conspiring to take over the world.

sir ,you protest to much, i would ask all,can a man who has taken and still adears to,the oath of the royal archmason be trusted to public office ?,he swears to espout the cause of a companion of this degree,so far as to extricate him whether he is right or wrong, he swears to conseal his crimes,murder and treason not exceptry, is this such a man bound by such an oath to br trusted with office ?ought he be accepted as a witness or a juror when another mason is party in the case, ought he be trusted with the office of judge or justice of the peace or as a sheriff ,constable,marshal or of any other office,

getz

i just thought to add a little more to my anti/masonic rants,the DUBLAIN MASSACRE,large sections of the police report were banned from the public domain under the 100year secracy order,LORD KULLUN an established insider[mason] also omitted and censored references to the documents in his final report,parents and teachers were advised to concentrate their efforts on a campaign to outlaw handguns instead of focusing on how a mentally unstable freemason,already known by the police to be a paedophile had obtained a firearms licence for 6 handguns,hamilton enjoyed good relations with both local labour luminary george robinson[grand master mason] and micheal forsyth[mason] the scottish secretary of state and MP for stirling.then there was the child sex scandal in north wales[involving masons],when the chief constable of north wales said in court;lord kenyon a provincial grandmaster tried to pressure him into abandoning a crackdown .MARTIN SHORT BBC newsnight 19-3-01 entire units of the metroplitian police and flying squad and the drug squad were freemasons,they all,in the end were sent to prison,when you are bonded by a oath of mutual defence and loyality,you may well find that it is extremely difficult to squeal on your corrupt brethen,i wont even go into the jersey scandels AND YOU SAY WE HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT,

thepcgp

Getz, how would you know the oath of a Royal Arch Mason? Unless you had taken it. Anyone reporting to know the content of such an oath, without having taken it, is probably misinformed. So how do you know this oath exactly?

There is no such person as 'Lord Kullun', not that I can find any evidence of. Who is this person?

Do you have any evidence for any of your claims? Surely you don't expect people to believe what you are saying when you haven't provided any references for any of it? It's quite obvious you are simply making this stuff up.

I am certain there must be more constructive ways for you to direct your creative ability.

Owen

For all your investigations getz, how come you've left out two of the most important parts of the oath of a new initiate freemason?

I will not be involved in conspiracies against the state
I will uphold the laws of the society (Or words to that effect, been 9 years since I was an initiate).

You sir, are a conspiracy theory nutjob, and are full of sh*t. Making up stories, and now making up people to bring some sort of creedence to your made up stories. Please just go away now and stop lying.

nyarlothothep

Why all the indignation?

getz

thepcgp wrote: »

Getz, how would you know the oath of a Royal Arch Mason? Unless you had taken it. Anyone reporting to know the content of such an oath, without having taken it, is probably misinformed. So how do you know this oath exactly?

There is no such person as 'Lord Kullun', not that I can find any evidence of. Who is this person?

Do you have any evidence for any of your claims? Surely you don't expect people to believe what you are saying when you haven't provided any references for any of it? It's quite obvious you are simply making this stuff up.

I am certain there must be more constructive ways for you to direct your creative ability.

if masons have nothing to hide ,why are you getting so worked up ? stocton MP frank cook says he has tabled a commons motion claiming hamilton may have been allowed to build up a arsenal of high -powered weapons because of his links with the ultra-secret society,mr cook claims hamilton was granted a firearms certificate in 1979 two years after joining lodge 1417 of the masonic order at garrow hill glasgow,mr cook added i actually feel guilty for not raising this matter sooner,we must find out immediately why a man of this know character was allowed it would appear with ease to collect such a large amount of weapons and ammunition, LORD CULLEN[thats the spelling]was asked if he was a freemason he said he was not a mason,but he is numbered 1702 on the membership of the,speculaitive society of edinburgh,which is an offshoot of freemasonary[mason lodge canongate kilwinning n2 founded in 1764] the inquiry into the dunblain massacre was a massive cover up. a top scots freemason has sensationally claimed,former grandmaster lord burton says that lord cullens official probe suppressed crucial information to protect high-profile legal figures, he says,they belong to a secretive ;supermason group called the speculative society,lord burton revealed that he was bullied and threatened by other peers when he tried to raise his concerns, when you lift up that rock

Bigdeadlydave

Well all I know is that everyone I know who has any contact with Masons says that they are all really nice people, who are in a club with other nice guys, and like to do some charity work and the oaths etc just make their "club" that little bit extra special.

I have to admit I am fascinated by Masons and I might pay a visit to the Grand lodge in Dublin.... Was I right in hearing its open to visitors?

thepcgp

Definitely worth a visit. You'll be amazed. You can go in for a tour pretty much any time during the day, except when there's a meeting in progress, these are usually only in the evening and held about once a month (check in advance for what day). I went with my wife last year and we were completely blown away. I have to say it's one of the most amazing places I've ever been in. The blue lodge room itself looks at first like it's tiled in alternating black and white, but when you walk on it you realize it's actually a giant carpet that was custom-made for the place so it makes no sound when you walk! The walls are covered with bigger-than-life-size paintings of past masters. Those walls seem to go up forever and the ceiling is painted blue like the canopy of heaven. There's 2 pillars that go almost to the ceiling with big globes at the top. It's absolutely astounding. You can visit the Templar temple upstairs, see the secret passage-way, and the Royal Arch lodge with statues of Egyptian pharaos on the wall, and the symbolism and art and stuff will leave you perplexed. Some claim that there's no Masonic connection to esotericism but when you see this place you have to wonder. I mean some of the symbolism is just out of this world. Although what I appreciate most about Freemasonry in general and Grand Lodge in particular is that even though they believe in a spiritual being, or god, they never show any representation of 'god' anywhere. It's as if 'god' is too powerful or great to be displayed in an iconic image. Except the eye of course, but to me this represents watching or experiencing, rather than ruling. <Tangent> While I'm not religious, I definitely believe in the human spirit and a supreme being, not one that 'rules' us but rather a central consciousness or common power through which we are all connected (men and women). And I don't believe Freemasonry is for men because they think men are superior or more important, but rather because maybe men need something to bring them together in a spiritual sense, while women have childbirth and all that men really have nothing like that, I think Freemasonry in a sense provides an avenue for men to bond and feel connected with one another. </Tangent> Anyways, back to topic, Grand Lodge is well worth a visit if you're in the area, or even if you're not.

Owen

If anyone wants to see the Cork Masonic Hall, let me know. The main room is incredible, built from parts of the original St. Finbarrs Cathedral that date back centuries. There's a small museum too, with artifacts from the only Lady Freemason.

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getz

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Well all I know is that everyone I know who has any contact with Masons says that they are all really nice people, who are in a club with other nice guys, and like to do some charity work and the oaths etc just make their "club" that little bit extra special.

I have to admit I am fascinated by Masons and I might pay a visit to the Grand lodge in Dublin.... Was I right in hearing its open to visitors?

now where have i heard that before , yes there is a goverment report out ,about another group of nice people,

mrtaylor1981

thepcgp wrote: »

Intersting. I have seen teh skull and cross bones on an old 1700's grave in Leitrim and wondered was the person buried in it a pirate or something ! Checked it out in Wiki and it says - Freemasonry, where the sign of skull and crossbones is used to denote a master mason.

Bigdeadlydave

Sweet, Im in Dublin next week for the TCD open day so I might head over for a look

Bigdeadlydave

getz wrote: »

now where have i heard that before , yes there is a goverment report out ,about another group of nice people,

Ahhhh cmon....

Bigdeadlydave

thepcgp wrote: »

What exactly is that a picture of?

Permabear

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Bigdeadlydave

I would say it might be near impossible to find neutral sources on something like this but we will try

BTW guys did the OP ever join in the end?

Absolam

I guess it would be up to him to decide whether he wanted his deciding to join or not should be a matter of public record

Some of us are happy to be 'out' as Freemasons, but it's fair to say that others quite rightly think membership may attract negative opinions which could harm their careers/personal lives..

Emme

PaintDoctor wrote: »

If anyone wants to see the Cork Masonic Hall, let me know. The main room is incredible, built from parts of the original St. Finbarrs Cathedral that date back centuries. There's a small museum too, with artifacts from the only Lady Freemason.

Is the book on her still available Paintdoctor?

I saw the carpet in the Molesworth Street lodge. About 15 years ago myself and another girl (her Dad's a Mason) went in for a snoop to see what the fuss was about and the guy who was showing us around was very nice but kept asking us why we were so interested in seeing the place. We didn't tell him why! We only saw the main room to the right of the entrance, full of aprons in glass cases etc. We didn't find it all that exciting TBH.

Owen

Sorry Emme, on principle, I'll be having little to do with boards, or this thread anymore. I'm available on PM if anyone has a specific question.

Bigdeadlydave

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Sorry Emme, on principle, I'll be having little to do with boards, or this thread anymore. I'm available on PM if anyone has a specific question.

Aww

Wibbs

Absolam wrote: »

I guess it would be up to him to decide whether he wanted his deciding to join or not should be a matter of public record

Some of us are happy to be 'out' as Freemasons, but it's fair to say that others quite rightly think membership may attract negative opinions which could harm their careers/personal lives..

Very much so and I can think of one case where the fact the chap was a freemason impacted on his business life. I suspect for the usual silly "reasons" too. An uncle of mine was a freemason(I say was as he passed away a few years back). A mate of mine is one. Big deal TBH. It's a private club with like minded types who do a lot for charity. Much of it in the background. No offence meant towards members, but from what I've seen of it, it's like a golf club without the golf:) If you know what I mean. Obviously with a lot of history and ceremony etc behind it, but that kinda vibe in a lot of ways. I know this much, there is a lot of crap attached to the club from outsiders.

If you do get the chance to visit the lodge in dublin its well worth the look. Very victorian vibe to it. In a nice way:)

Bigdeadlydave

So contrary to popular belief Masons being perceived as being discriminatory, are in fact often victims of discrimination themselves?

Wibbs

Not in a huge way, but I'd say it happens alright.

getz

Wibbs wrote: »

Not in a huge way, but I'd say it happens alright.

i take it that people do not realize the damage freemasonary did in italy,it took the goverment down,also the british goverments own report,that stated the belief of masonary influence[but not proved] in the cover up of the northern irish shoot to kill allegations,

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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www.independent.co.uk/news/parliament-select-committee-masons-had-role-in - stalker-case-1095975.html. wikipdia.org suppression of freemasonary

Wibbs

getz wrote: »

i take it that people do not realize the damage freemasonary did in italy,it took the goverment down,

Any organisation can be used in such a way. The italian example is a good one. Read up more on italian "secret societies". Indeed AFAIR Italy has or had the most masonic lodges in the world(they have other societies too). There seems to be a cultural thing in italy with societies like this. Comparing lodges here and in Italy while under the same banner is not exactly evidence of any worldwide "masonic conspiracy". I would agree that the notion of a closed or secret society can bring issues with it, by its very nature. It can also bring issues as far as an outsiders perception of it. I would say the latter is a far bigger issue than the former though.

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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i have NEVER said john stalker was involved in any allegations of freemasonary,in fact he knew nothing about it possibly being involved in the shoot to kill inquiry,in fact when he was asked about it,he said he dident know that.if you had read the link you would have seen it was the goverments own committee that brought that up, also i dont believe there is any masonic world conspiracy,this is my points.it is NOT undesirable that people are members of the freemasons,people have got a absolute right to belong to these societies,there are many freemasons in each branch of goverment and the criminal justice system, who preform their duties with absolute fairness and impeccabilty,no question about that,the issue is is there somthing to be worried about ?.yes because of its secreteness, the public will always have a problem with public servants who may or may not have another agenda,goverment officials should declare anything that could conflict with their duties,the tax payer and every citizen has a right to expect that thier public servants are open and above board, if you hide things you cannot complain when accusations get thrown about

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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if you are a irishman going to watch a football match between ireland and england would think it is important to know if the ref is english?

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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partisanship a good word,if as i am expected to believe[correct me if i am wrong] people join the freemasons [old boys club] for self-interest and mutual self-advancment ?and i should not be worried if i take a freemason to court on a civil offence that the judge is not a freemason ?do you not think i have a right to know ?i certainly do, and i also think many others think the same way as me