Why did you delete that thread?

o sleep · 12-12-2002 10:24pm

good examples of cencorship: incitment to hatred. it's all well and good to say that if people are educated, then there's no need for cencorship, but well not all people are educated. and if you're someone with different colour skin/religion/etc and you've just gotten the ****e kicked out of you or dead then i have a feeling that you may believe cencorship to be a necessary ... shall we say evil? or ten year old kids watching hardcore porn or bestiality. or paedophilia on the internet. extreme examples, i know, but examples nonetheless. people here have been using nazi's as examples to back their arguments, but if a nazi or far-right wing organisation were targetting areas in town, i'd start getting worried. lines have to be drawn, i'm afraid, it's sad and true, bcos (and here's a shocker) we don't live in a perfect world. sometimes 'open discourses' aren't available, bcos in some examples the groups that would propose far right propoganda or ideology don't want 'open discourses', but simply want to advocate their far-right policies (for political or personal gain).

and muppet: you seem only to have a problem with the drowners spelling and not raggamuffins. now why is that? why take cheap shots at someone's spelling ... to be pedantic? probably. nothing is more irritating (and childish - and possibly an indication to a person's anal qualities) than being a pedant (and pedants tend not to be people brimming with witticisms as you seem to think about yourself).

Amz · 13-12-2002 12:31am

Originally posted by dera
.... well, if ever a thread deserved to be deleted .. this is criminally dull!

let it die now pleeease!

What the hell age are you dera?!

Why is it that you have such a problem with one of the most intereting dbates/subjects raised on the board in many's a long while? Do you get tired reading? Maybe you should sit down.

I think it's interesting to see how such a debte came about because of a thread regarding moderation/censorship on the board just goes to show that all the posts/threads don't have to be gig plugs/adverts and that the posters on the phantom message board have opinions regarding serious matters however much i agree or disagree with some of them.

Long may this continue.

PiE · 13-12-2002 3:28am

Yea, sure let's show donkey porn on The Den. Let's have Nazi campaigns sponsoring Pokemon. Let's just f*ck everything out the window, material posessions are unnecessary in this world.

Originally posted by Amz
Long may this continue.

...in general, yes. But with some of the numbnuts in this discussion, no.

but for god's sake people died for free speech and sometimes i find it a insult to suggest that we endorse censorship.

People died for Hitler, does that make it unacceptable that we don't endorse naziism? People have died for a lot of things.

Get your head our of your arses Raggamuffin & Muppet Monarchy etc. Consorship is necessary. Otherwise we'd have idiots like you two pissing the world off.

And if you don't like the way boards.ie is run... well... noone cares really.

dera · 13-12-2002 4:03am

it's not the topic of debate I object to.
it's the standard of discussion.

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 10:36am

Originally posted by o sleep
and muppet: you seem only to have a problem with the drowners spelling and not raggamuffins. now why is that? why take cheap shots at someone's spelling ... to be pedantic? probably. nothing is more irritating (and childish - and possibly an indication to a person's anal qualities) than being a pedant (and pedants tend not to be people brimming with witticisms as you seem to think about yourself).

Originally posted by muppet monarchy

Re: Spelling. I'm not slagging you. Couldn't be bothered, to tell the truth. However, when your spelling is so bad that it makes your posts confusing / nonsensical, then I'm gonna point that out, dig?

I wonder sometimes if I'm the only person who reads everyone else's posts.

the snitch · 13-12-2002 10:56am

whats all this go to do with the MUSIC?
oh and leave the drowner alone, she's just a kid, she'll grow out of it

thedrowner · 13-12-2002 12:45pm

yeah good points, i know a lot of the things i said yesterday weren't worded properly, coz i was a bit infuriated tbh

snitch-anyone making silly childish personal attacks like that is acting childish themselves.

its just comments like that 'censroship is never ever ever a good thing'

answer me this truthfully. would you talk about porn in front of a child? if someone you knew had just suffered a beareavement, would you start making innapropriate jokes, or say anyhting you know would cause them upset/offence? i know i wouldnt, i personally censor myself in a case like this, because its just not right to cause offence like that. i try not to curse in front of children (particuarly when they've got a very grumpy looking mother in front of them) i check myself in situations like this coz its just plain manners.

i'd go with o sleep's post, and pie's post- its a necessery evil.

shorty-i'll explain a bit better when i have time, but just briefly, there's a lot of censorship regarding age, and i know when i was younger i would ahve been pissed off if it was having stopping me from doing somehting i wanted to do (like go to the cinema, etc) but i realise now it's necessary, and i watch my brother at the moment, who is quicte young, but thinks he knows whats best for him, but in a few years time he will probably regret a lot of the stuff he is doing now, or come to understand that people clamped down on him because of his age for a reason, and because he doesnt seem to be mature enough to make certain decisions for himself. (i dont mean that to sound quite so pompous, im not saying i think im mature enough to make those decisions).

also regarding the mental handicap point, i have a cousin who has down's syndrome. some of the stuff she might have seen/heard but shouldnt have, because she actually only has a mental age of 6, has had her thinking its ok to do/say certain stuff but its not! so you have to be careful what you say around people like her!

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 1:59pm

Ahhhh yessssss.
We've reached critical mass. Now the real men are coming out to post. Let's examine some of the most enlightened, witty, knowledgeable postings you're ever likely to see.

"o sleep"

"if you're someone with different colour skin/religion/etc and you've just gotten the ****e kicked out of you or dead then i have a feeling that you may believe cencorship to be a necessary "

That's why violence is against the law. You seem to be a bit confused here. You cannot censor actions in the physical world. Censorship can only apply to ideas, writing, pictures etc. Y'know, the media and such. I'm guessing you're a Herald reader.

"good examples of cencorship: incitment to hatred. it's all well and good to say that if people are educated, then there's no need for cencorship, but well not all people are educated. "

Education starts with giving people the power to make their own decisions, and form their own opinons. Censorship takes this away.

"ten year old kids watching hardcore porn "

Censored. I don't think anyone's gonna argue with that.

"paedophilia on the internet"

Would be censored, were it possible. No arguments there, either.

"nazi or far-right wing organisation" / "groups that would propose far right propoganda or ideology don't want 'open discourses', but simply want to advocate their far-right policies (for political or personal gain" / "sometimes 'open discourses' aren't available"

See, there you go proving my point for me. Cheers.
Censorship is the way of far right organisations. Free speech enables people to point out the flaws in these group's ideologies. The most viciously censored societies are those that are run by extremists, be they far right / communist / fundamentalist islamic / whatever. It is in these places that open discourse is not available. Unless censorship is very, very carefully applied, you're playing into these people's hands. Freedom of speech is the best weapon we have against those nutbars.

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 2:06pm

Originally posted by PiE
Yea, sure let's show donkey porn on The Den. Let's have Nazi campaigns sponsoring Pokemon. Let's just f*ck everything out the window, material posessions are unnecessary in this world.

If you think anyone's advocating that, you're a fool.

...in general, yes. But with some of the numbnuts in this discussion, no.

Some are more equal than others, eh?

People died for Hitler, does that make it unacceptable that we don't endorse naziism? People have died for a lot of things.

Just what the hell does that mean? Reads like pure nonsense to me, mate. Please explain.

Get your head our of your arses Raggamuffin & Muppet Monarchy etc. Consorship is necessary. Otherwise we'd have idiots like you two pissing the world off.
And if you don't like the way boards.ie is run... well... noone cares really.

Yes. People with opinions are troublesome, aren't they. So, you think we should be censored? You're really not getting with the gist of the discussion, are you?
Have you actually read anything but the last page? I think I explained my position about the boards. I'm not gonna bother digging up the quote, do it yourself.

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 2:15pm

Originally posted by Muppet Monarchy
Ok, there's all kinds of censorship. From America's government censoring articles that suggested that the bombing of the Chinese embassy was a little less accidental than was previously believed (let's call that political censorship), to "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" being banned (let's call that moral censorship). What, specifically are you advocating?

I say it again, drowner. I don't think any form of 'political censorship' is ever justified. I do agree that some kinds of 'moral censorship' are necessary (i.e. extreme examples, quoted above kiddie porn etc.), but only a very few. Is it right that supplying information on abortion is censored? Do you agree with that?

answer me this truthfully. would you talk about porn in front of a child? if someone you knew had just suffered a beareavement, would you start making innapropriate jokes, or say anyhting you know would cause them upset/offence? i know i wouldnt, i personally censor myself in a case like this, because its just not right to cause offence like that. i try not to curse in front of children (particuarly when they've got a very grumpy looking mother in front of them) i check myself in situations like this coz its just plain manners.

Aside from that, I think you're getting a little sidetracked there, drowny. We're not talking about censoring yourself in conversation with someone who's suffered a bereavement. When it comes to kids, be it that they are physically young, or in the case of your cousin, mentally young, it's not censorship that we need to protect them, it's common sense and good parenting. Let's try and keep it to one discussion. Or at least, one discussion and a load of people abusing me and Raggy for having the impudence to participate in a discussion.

Word.

polarbelly · 13-12-2002 4:26pm

Originally posted by Muppet Monarchy
Censorship is never ever ever ever ever ever ever a good idea. It never will be a good idea. A democracy cannot co-exist with censorship, the two are wholly incompatible.

Originally posted by Muppet Monarchy
"ten year old kids watching hardcore porn "

Censored. I don't think anyone's gonna argue with that.

DerekD Goldfish · 13-12-2002 4:30pm

I am physicaly shocked I dont think I have ever agreed with raggamufin until now. I dont agree with censorship except in extreme circumstances. Such as child porn or the BNP not being alowed to advertise on telly. Censorship is stupid take a recent example a recent 2DTV advert was banned because it portrayed Bush as an Idiot. It had him reciving a copy of the vidio sayiny my favourate and putting it in a toster. Now it was completly ok to portray him as an idiot in the prograge and in print but they coouldnt do it on telly. Also programes like brass eye which are often critisied and campaind to be censored by crappy right wing rubblish like the sun are some of the best on tv. I dont usually agree with ragamufin and muppet monarchy but that doesnt mean I want them banned. If you take away everyone you disagree with then who have you left to argue with. If you do you will end up with a bunch of people sitting around telleing each other how great they are.I dont agree with drowner and others on this issue but they are intitled to their opinion even if I dont agree with it. If people didnt have different opinions and allowed to express them then we would all be listing to westlife and voting for Bertie just because thats what the majority want. Rant finised

P.S. dont bother corecting my spelling I know most of its crap

polarbelly · 13-12-2002 4:31pm

quote:

People died for Hitler, does that make it unacceptable that we don't endorse naziism? People have died for a lot of things.

Just what the hell does that mean? Reads like pure nonsense to me, mate. Please explain.

you're taking it out of context muppet...

raggamuppet said people died for democracy etc. and pie said people die for alot of things doesnt mean that all of them are to be respcted just cos ppl died for them

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 4:41pm

posted by me, 3 post up.

"I say it again, drowner. I don't think any form of 'political censorship' is ever justified. I do agree that some kinds of 'moral censorship' are necessary (i.e. extreme examples, quoted above kiddie porn etc.), but only a very few. Is it right that supplying information on abortion is censored? Do you agree with that?"

For the love of God, read the damn posts.

Polar : make it clear what you're referring to, if you're referring to previous psots then.

polarbelly · 13-12-2002 4:46pm

learn how to construct an argument

make a point

back it up

STICK TO IT

you cant say censorship is never ever ever ever good (great use of the word 'ever' by the way)

and then come back and say

uh well i meant it in relation to political censorship

cop on

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 5:05pm

C'mon, man. Be reasonable. You didn't think anyone actually believes that vile things like child porn etc. shouldn't be censored, did you?

I'm not trying to argue with you, or anyone else, dude. I'm trying to have a discussion. There's no rules, neither.

I think at this stage you're taking this all way too seriously, man. A bit too personally, and all. Lighten up, will ya?

polarbelly · 13-12-2002 5:11pm

we are having an argument i would say, or a debate, with a few different people taking different sides

i argue that censorship is a necessary evil and you argue it isnt ... well you did at the start now its just political censorship

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 5:51pm

Originally posted by Mewzel
"Betcha you wish those guitar lessons would finally start paying off!!!"

i think its posts such as these that pete is complaining about when he says people are going off topic into a mere slagging match.

The important part being :

Originally posted by Mewzel

And who was it that said something about being pedantic?

Shorty · 13-12-2002 6:53pm

What are you saying?!!! Everybody wants donkey porn on The Den. More Donkey Porn! More Donkey Porn! More Donkey Porn!

This has nothing to do with censorship,why would a childrens programme want to show donkey porn, it's a childrens programme. Their programming is aimed at children, porn is aimed at adults. No censorship just means, that if they wanted to, which they wouldn't, they could. Just give reasonable examples.

And I wouldn't even regard kiddie porn as "porn". It's just depraved.

This thread is more about free speech and censorship, in written, spoken and visual form. For my views on porn consult Bill Hicks, if you know what I'm talking about, you will know that child porn does actually harm people, and should therefore not be considered porn, as I have said already.

answer me this truthfully. would you talk about porn in front of a child? if someone you knew had just suffered a beareavement, would you start making innapropriate jokes, or say anyhting you know would cause them upset/offence? i know i wouldnt, i personally censor myself in a case like this, because its just not right to cause offence like that. i try not to curse in front of children (particuarly when they've got a very grumpy looking mother in front of them) i check myself in situations like this coz its just plain manners.

This isn't censorship, that's just being coy. Censorship is normally after the fact.

PiE · 13-12-2002 7:27pm

Ok, it's quite obvious you're dragging this out just to be a nuisance.

Grow up.

Get a hobby.

Seriously.

This whole discussion was so intense because of that ridiculous "NO FORM OF CENSORSHIP IS ACCEPTABLE!!!" remark.

Now that's been retracted, the whole argument is moot and any further discussion unnecessary.

Muppet Monarchy · 13-12-2002 8:39pm

I'm gonna assume that last one was directed at me. JeezLouise. At least I contributed something better to the debate than 'this sucks, stop it'. The discussion will die when it dies. Why don't you just stop reading it?

PiE · 13-12-2002 8:51pm

Originally posted by Muppet Monarchy
Why don't you just stop reading it?

Because then you'd have free reign to spout as much nonsense as you please. :]

Amz · 14-12-2002 3:14am

polarbelly your posts are becomming unbelievably tedious! What the **** is your problem?! you haven't had anything constructive or worthwhile to add. All you seem to be doing is taking the piss out of Raggamuffin and Muppet Monarchy how is this making you look good? go do something positive ...
stop trying to be funny its not working for you...

Sir · 14-12-2002 3:24am

Originally posted by Amz
go do something positive ...

Yeah! go practice your ****ing guitar and then maybe your "band" will have some "music" to inflict on the general public
Polarbelly you're just looking for any reason at all to knock Raggamuffin and Muppet Monarchy grow up and get a decent argument together then maybe people will listen to you

polarbelly · 14-12-2002 3:42am

muppet, just wanted to apologise my last post was indeed a falsehood

polarbelly · 14-12-2002 3:44am

surely you would agree that i can post whatever way i want...

that is what you want isnt it? a board free of moderation/censorship etc.

polarbelly · 14-12-2002 3:48am

amz, in fairness

how is this making you look good?

is that why i post here? to look good, i can think of many different ways to look good* and none of them involve anything to do with this board

1. lose weight

2. get a face lift (i am an ugly bastard)

3. get some smart clothes

polarbelly · 14-12-2002 4:02am

Originally posted by Sir
Yeah! go practice your ****ing guitar and then maybe your "band" will have some "music" to inflict on the general public
Polarbelly you're just looking for any reason at all to knock Raggamuffin and Muppet Monarchy grow up and get a decent argument together then maybe people will listen to you

you've got a lot of anger, did your doctor not up your mtv2 dosage?

i really should practice my ****ing guitar, well obviously if you feel so strongly about it.. who are you by the way?

Amz · 14-12-2002 4:13am

How could i argue with that?!

Shorty · 15-12-2002 10:43pm

Originally posted by PiE
Ok, it's quite obvious you're dragging this out just to be a nuisance.

Grow up.

Get a hobby.

Seriously.

This whole discussion was so intense because of that ridiculous "NO FORM OF CENSORSHIP IS ACCEPTABLE!!!" remark.

Now that's been retracted, the whole argument is moot and any further discussion unnecessary.

Actually that's what I was going to say, the fact that people have now had to use such extreme examples as child porn, shows that their original argument has been changed to, Censorship in general is not acceptable except in extreme cases such as child porn. And I still don't think it comes under censorship, cause it's illegal! So therefore, MuppetMonarchy hasn't back tracked on his original argument!

Why did you delete that thread?

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