Yemen has missiles confiscated, told to play safe

shotamoose

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2566207.stm

Briefly:

"Yemen has demanded the return of 15 Scud missiles and warheads seized by US and Spanish forces while en route to the country from North Korea. "

I find this story a bit strange. It seems that the US - with the help of some Spanish ships - accosted a North Korean ship transporting some Scud missiles to Yemen, and had away with them. The Yemenis are a tad put out, and has asked for them back. The US says it'll think about it.

There's no indication from anyone that the shipment was illegal. North Korea seems to be within it's rights to flog missiles to Yemen, it's just that the US reserves the right to grab them. Reason number one seems to be that it doesn't think North Korea should be selling them: Donald Rumsfeld commented that

"They are putting in the hands of many countries technology and capabilities which have the potential for destroying hundreds of thousands of people."

Which, he might have added, is his job.

Reason number two seems to be that the US doesn't think Yemen should be buying them. It's not sure that the Yemenis won't keep towing the line on terror, and what's more (Rumsfeld again):

'there are places where the missiles could have been headed that were clearly illegal.'

Obviously, this is vastly hyporcritical, but that's not surprising. I am surprised at how keen the US is to p1ss off the N Koreans at every possible opportunity, though. Seems to me like the way to approach a crazed dictator armed to the teeth with nasty weapons but who has as yet shown no inclination to use them on anyone is not to goad him with pointy sticks. Oh well, maybe they're lining up the next Saddam.

DiscoStu

Piracy.

Plain and simple.

I wonder what history will look back on George W. Bush as?

mike65

Whats all the fuss about, its a step to disarm a hostile country (which Yemen certainly is) before the war kicks off. Makes perfect sense really.

Mike.

DadaKopf

Strangely enough, I think one of the fairest appraisals of the crisis comes from North Korea herself:

"It is necessary to heighten vigilance against the US strategy for world supremacy and anti-terrorism war,"' North Korea's official newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, said in an editorial. "All countries are called upon to build self-reliant military power by their own efforts." (From The Guardian)

Seems fair enough to me.

DiscoStu

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2567225.stm

They realised that what had been done was totally illegal and returned the missiles.

Lemming

One thing that struck me (and reported on the rte 6.01 news) was that they also apparently found chemicals hidden onboard with the scuds.

Chemical weapons?? Defensive?? I don't f*cking think so.

Bar that, the US was possibly smack out of order.

DadaKopf

They realised that what had been done was totally illegal and returned the missiles.

They knew it was illegal from the start. The whole thing is obvious political posturing.

Chemical weapons?? Defensive?? I don't f*cking think so.

The whole missiles for defence purposes only thing strikes me as a bit of a misnomer. Since missiles (long range to ICBM's) are pointed outwards to neighbours anyway, judging whether they're defensive or offensive is a matter of opinion. (The only missiles that are truly defensive are short range SAM's.)

Missiles are a currency of threat and fear, a currency which the US has used for a long time (see here). America, predictably, is reacting to a threat to that currency's value.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Lemming
One thing that struck me (and reported on the rte 6.01 news) was that they also apparently found chemicals hidden onboard with the scuds.

Chemical weapons?? Defensive?? I don't f*cking think so.

Bar that, the US was possibly smack out of order.

Its been confirmed that the stuff that was suspected of being chemical weapons was infact the propellent for the scuds. Which, im sure, its not an entirely implausable mistake to make knowing how volatile and toxic those propellents can be..

Victor

I knew about this on Sunday from a mailing list (and so should the Spanish and US governments), there was no excuse to stop the ship.

Originally posted by Lemming
One thing that struck me (and reported on the rte 6.01 news) was that they also apparently found chemicals hidden onboard with the scuds. Chemical weapons?? Defensive?? I don't f*cking think so. Bar that, the US was possibly smack out of order.

Guess what, I have chemicals in my bathroom, include chlorine, which is banned under the Geneva Conventions.

Originally posted by mike65
Whats all the fuss about, its a step to disarm a hostile country (which Yemen certainly is) before the war kicks off. Makes perfect sense really.

Bull**** Yemen has sided with the US in "TWAT". And Yemen's desire to have such weapons is in response to itäs neighbours having comparable weapons.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/afp/defense/021211174917.8hcxdx83

Seized Scuds headed for Yemen: White House

WASHINGTON, Dec 11 (AFP) - 17:49 GMT - The White House confirmed Wednesday that the United States has given the all-clear for a shipment of North Korean Scud missiles to be delivered to Yemen following high-level discussions.
"While there is authority (under international law) to stop and search (the vessel) in this instance there is no clear authority to seize the shipment of Scud missiles from North Korea to Yemen and therefore the merchant vessel is being relesased," sayd spokesman Ari Fleischer.

Originally posted by Moriarty
Which, im sure, its not an entirely implausable mistake to make knowing how volatile and toxic those propellents can be..

I (and the Americans) knew beforehand what was on board. They knew it was the proppellent.

Victor

This is dated, but relevant.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/library/articles/zeroballistic.html
"Of the approximately 180 nation-states in the world today, only eight - the United States, France, Britain, China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine - deploy inter-continental range ballistic missiles or submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Of these, three (Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine) have pledged to eliminate or transfer these missiles. Four additional countries deploy or have until recently deployed intermediate range (500-5,500 km) ballistic missiles: Bulgaria (500 km), Czechoslovakia (500 km), Israel (1,450 km), and Saudi Arabia (1,850 km). North Korea is reported to be working on a 600-1,000 km range missile, but no successful flight tests of it have been reported. India has twice flight tested a 2,400 km range missile, the Agni. Iraq previously deployed 600 km and possibly 800 km extended-range Scud missiles. These missiles have now been destroyed by the UN Special Commission implementing the Gulf War cease-fire agreement. Fifteen other countries deploy or have until recently deployed short range ballistic missiles (110 500 km). These are: Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea, South Korea, Egypt, Iran, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Hungary, Poland and Romania. Of these fifteen, six are European countries that have already demobilized their short-range Lance, Scud. SS-21 and SS-23 missiles. Of the remaining nine - all of which are developing countries - four deploy only Scud missiles transferred from the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 1980s and have no known indigenous missile production capability or intent. The remaining five countries also imported Scud or other short-range missiles and are now producing them or attempting to do so. See Lora Lumpe, Lisbeth Groniund and David C. Wright, 'Third World Missiles Fall Short'. Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Vol. 48, No. 2 (March 1992), p. 32."

As best i can work out the following countries have, have had, used, built or sold long range missiles.

Afghanistan, Argentina, Brazil, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Egypt, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Italy, Libya, The Netherlands, North Korea, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Russia / former Soviet Union (Kazakhstan, Belarus and Ukraine), Saudi Arabia, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, Syria, Syria, Taiwan, UK, United, States, Yemen.

The only difference is that Yemen is a poor country.

mike65

Originally posted by Victor
I knew about this on Sunday from a mailing list (and so should the Spanish and US governments), there was no excuse to stop the ship. Guess what, I have chemicals in my bathroom, include chlorine, which is banned under the Geneva Conventions.
Bull**** Yemen has sided with the US in "TWAT". And Yemen's desire to have such weapons is in response to itäs neighbours having comparable weapons.

"TWAT"

Lauguage...I forgot the Yemen had "come on board" in order to avoid being blown up, but what the average Yemeni citizen thinks is another matter I guess.

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
Lauguage...

What language? "****" is not language and neither is "TWAT".

mike65

Victor, lighten up! Me plainly on wrong forum tonight...

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
Victor, lighten up! Me plainly on wrong forum tonight...

Soz, I just get annoyed when someone (Spain & the US) has done wrong and people then defend the wrongdoers.

Lemming

Originally posted by Victor
Guess what, I have chemicals in my bathroom, include chlorine, which is banned under the Geneva Conventions.

Umm .... you don't have VX or Anthrax lying around now do you? :rolleyes:

And anyway, t'is a moot point since what was found was propellant for the scuds.

Victor

Originally posted by Lemming
Umm .... you don't have VX or Anthrax lying around now do you? :rolleyes:

No, but I've a few flatmates who leave used clothes everywhere ...

Originally posted by Lemming
And anyway, t'is a moot point since what was found was propellant for the scuds.

It wasn't "found" to be propellant; they knew it all along (the Americans had monitored the loading of the ship).

bonkey

"While there is authority (under international law) to stop and search (the vessel) in this instance there is no clear authority to seize the shipment of Scud missiles from North Korea to Yemen and therefore the merchant vessel is being relesased," sayd spokesman Ari Fleischer.

What, of course, is going mostly uncommented is the fact that any nation should have known this before boarding in the first place, and therefore questioned the purpose of boarding.

To be honest, this smacks to me of a really screwed up operation.

The only justification I can think of for the whole operation is that the US had information of something else being on board. Had they been right, they could have held up this seizure as proof-positive of their claims that when they say they know something is up, something is indeed up. This would lend weight to their "we know Saddam has WMDs, but we cant tell you how many, what type, where, how, or anything like that".

Of course, seeing as nothing was found, the Americans are not going to admit that it was bad intel, because then there would be increased pressure on them from all sides to back up their claims with foolish things like evidence before acting on them in future....which would not be entirely fitting with their current modus operandi.

NOTE : This is personal opinion, unsupported and unsupportable. It is probably completely untrue, and I'm open to other suggestions. I'm not even interested in vigorously defending this idea, so feel free to knock it, but dont expect much resistence from me

jc

mike65

The thing I was wondering about was why the missiles were shipped with 40,000 tonnes of cement, rather than in a more
er obvious fashion. maybe the Yanks did miss something in the bags.

Mike.

gandalf

Maybe they use Cement as packing material. I mean lets be honest here a bit of bubblewrap would be flimsey to wrap up your new purchase of medium range missiles now wouldn't it

You gotta hand it to Bush and his mates, what next eh

I'm not actually surprised at the Spaniards to be honest, they nearly started a war over a island of goats earlier this year, lol.

Gandalf.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
The thing I was wondering about was why the missiles were shipped with 40,000 tonnes of cement, rather than in a more
er obvious fashion. maybe the Yanks did miss something in the bags.

Because cement isn't worth pirating a ship for (piracy is still a problem in archipelagos in the far east and off Yemen). Plausible deniability. Of course it also makes good ballast (but I doubt it was 40,000 tonnes, ship wasn't big enough).

On the other hand, if rocket fuel is an acid and cement is a base, it stops the bottom of the ship being corroded in the event of a leak.(?)

bonkey

Originally posted by mike65
The thing I was wondering about was why the missiles were shipped with 40,000 tonnes of cement, rather than in a more er obvious fashion.

Because the more obvious fashion would require sending an armed fleet to accompany the shipment to keep it safe....which then makes it massively more expensive, even assuming North Korea and Yemen could assemble a fleet between them, use it, and not have the nearby nations complaining about these foreign ships of war hanging about.....

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
which then makes it massively more expensive, even assuming North Korea and Yemen could assemble a fleet between them

Not sure exactly what Yemen has, but it is likely to be strictly coastal, as is the North Korean navy.

Los Angeles Times (By Times Wire Services)
December 13, 2002
Spain's Military Upset With U.S. Over Ship
Madrid's forces had risked their lives to stop the vessel only to see it released, officials note.

MADRID -- Spanish military officials voiced irritation with the United States over the seizure of a ship carrying North Korean missiles to Yemen, saying in reports published Thursday that Spanish naval forces risked their lives for what proved to be a pointless exercise.

The Defense Ministry sought to play down the reports in Spain's two biggest daily newspapers, but a spokesman acknowledged that the ministry was "a little surprised" by the U.S. decision to let the Scud missiles go their way after asking Spain to stop the ship this week in the Arabian Sea.

The spokesman added that the Pentagon's No. 2 official, Paul D. Wolfowitz, called Defense Minister Federico Trillo late Wednesday "to thank and praise Spain for the operation and to apologize for what could seem an absurd situation."

Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio said the U.S. decision to let the ship go was correct. "Once all the details were checked and the origin, destination and buyers were verified, and Yemen guaranteed that these missiles were not going to pass into terrorist hands, we were obliged to let the ship follow its course," Palacio told state radio.

U.S. officials said Wednesday that Spanish authorities were deeply involved in the awkward negotiations, as was Cambodia. The United States said it had the right to stop and search the ship but not confiscate the cargo because Yemen purchased the missiles legally.

In published reports, unnamed Spanish military officials expressed irritation. "The Spanish military forces risked their lives, and so far we don't know why," the daily El Pais quoted one unidentified Defense Ministry official as saying.

"There has been a change of tack toward Yemen that the United States will have to explain," another military official told El Mundo newspaper. The Spanish operation included the firing of warning shots at the freighter and its boarding by elite forces who rappelled from a helicopter. U.S. and Cambodian officials said Thursday that the ship was registered in Cambodia by North Korean owners.

"The ship was owned by Chinese, then it was sold to North Koreans who registered the ship with the Cambodian company in Singapore," Cambodian government spokesman Khieu Kanharith said. Cambodia recently suspended the company's operations after criticism that the vessels it registered were often engaged in criminal activities."