Ten new pilots to be commissioned by Aer Corps

dahamsta

Examiner Breaking

Ten new pilots are to be commissioned into the Aer Corps today.

The nine men and one woman from the 21st cadet class have spent over two years training at Baldonnell Aerodrome in Dublin.

Commandant Kieran McDaid from the Defence forces says they will now go on to a number of different duties.

"They can be posted to any number of squadrons, but in the main they will be flying fixed wing aircraft, doing fishery protection, or some of these pilots will end up operating certain rescue missions off the west coast of Ireland or flying the Garda Air support helicopters."

"Recruits, on the runway at the double! Now, raise your arms from your sides and run around making a 'NEAAAAHHHH' sound! 'Pow' and 'boom' sounds are optional!"

Before I get larted, my point should be obvious: Pilots cost an absolute fortune to maintain, yet we quite simply don't have anything for these new pilots to fly. What's the point? Do we /really/ need to be investing more money in defense? Are CIA-recruited gentlemen of Middle-Eastern origin going to start flying planes into the County Hall in Cork, or perhaps the Dirty Needle in Dublin?

adam

paddymee

Are CIA-recruited gentlemen of Middle-Eastern origin going to start flying planes into the County Hall in Cork, or perhaps the Dirty Needle in Dublin?

Why would the CIA recruit people to fly planes into buildings in Ireland. Or is this a joke about the 3000 or so people that died in the attack on the US last year?

Paddy

hallelujajordan

Pretty bad taste dahamsta

MDR

its a dangerous world Adam ...

We just viable a target for Islamic Extremists as any other western country. I don't subscribe to the American/Bush view of the world, but after living with 300 arabs for a year, you get a little insight as to how their heads work.

Ireland _needs_ to be able to protect herself, god willing we will never have to, our quasi-neutrality won't protect us .. didn't protect 200 odd Austrialians did it ?

PS I take offense to the Monument of Light being called a dirty needle, you are judging it negatively before the damn thing is even erected. Reflects your negative view of all things Irish I suppose ...

Typedef

Ireland I think should have a viable air defence infrastructure. This means probably quite a few F18's and the like.

This infrastructure could be put to use policing Irish territoral waters and playing a more active role in crisis situations like Bosnia.

The fact is that Ireland is a part of pax-Americana globally and unfortunately to have 'a say' in the military dealings of this pseudo alliance, Ireland must have a military element to contribute or withhold.

Edit: In reality Irish people bemoan the military actions taken by the UK and USA, but reap the rewards of such action, being quite close in economic and social terms to the two named powers. So with the likes of the Bush administration running the US, the only way Ireland can influence important decisions taken by the UK & US, that effect Ireland (in the foreign policy arena (in military terms that is)), is to have a military force that can be used to exponenciate Irish interests.*

It is absured to suppose that Ireland "does not" need a viable military air defence force, what's more, I'd like to see this nation playing a more active role in conflict situations, but not as simple subordinates to military action taken by larger nations, but as a shaper of actions taken.

In this regard, Ireland could push for matters that matter to Ireland, be those matters economic interests or Ireland's more traditional humanitarian concerns.

Again I think this should be done at a national, as opposed to a European level.

Typedef.

*Apologies if this black and white view of the world cuts a little too close to the bone of truth, for people suffering from osterich syndrome.

MDR

Again I think this should be done at a national, as opposed to a European level.

I disagree, but I really have to do some work

Originally posted by dahamsta
[BWhat's the point? Do we /really/ need to be investing more money in defense? Are CIA-recruited gentlemen of Middle-Eastern origin going to start flying planes into the County Hall in Cork, or perhaps the Dirty Needle in Dublin?

adam

In fairness to the above post, I think it has a very valid point actually.
From my reading of it, he is saying , we are wasting money here as, it's very unlikely that terrorists will be flying planes into anything here, and what are these extra pilots to do anyway??

I don't read any joke there, just a valid point.
mm

dahamsta

So nearly everyone put so much effort into being offended at my un-PC comments, the point was missed completely, eh? Gods, it's closer to the Dáil in here than I thought.

Here's some plain english so: They're talking about recruiting pilots, but we don't have any planes to put them in. Hello? Not only that, but the Government is incapable of sourcing a single helicopter, and even more important still, we can't afford it.

If I have to effing well tighten my belt because of that muppet McCreevy, the joke that we call an "Air Corps" can effing well do it too.

(Paint 'em a brighter orange boys, they can't see you in Iraq.)

[ EDIT: Let me clarify my comments for the liberals. (I thought I was a liberal, but obviously I don't even come close.) The bit about CIA-recruited gentlemen was a cynical allusion to the fact that I don't accept the common explanation of 9/11 as gospel, and I find the hive mind belief naive in the extreme. Why should I, or anyone in the general public, believe the propogated information when we've been provided with absolutely no proof whatsoever? As to the dirty needle, well, that was just a joke. Not particularly funny, I concede, but offensive? Like I said before, turn down the gain Ray. Now I suppose the mods will have to split this, which is exactly why I didn't get into this in my first post. Happy now? ]

adam

Saruman

The Air corps is not exactly just for defence.. since there is feck all to defend.. same as the Navy... they police the seas and keep fishermen in line... The air corps at the moment is as much search and rescue as it is defence and so 10 more pilots might be nice if it saves lives at sea or in mountains.

Our jets, if you can call them that are probably not even equiped with weapons so we are not talking Top Gun fighters here...

=[edit] just read the link he posted and it seems what i said is pretty much summed up down the bottom of the article too!! nothing to do with defence!! [/edit]=

MDR

No I didn't miss your point at all ...

This a chicken and egg situation, which do you get first the Plane or the Pilots. Ideally you would get both at the same time, but as you quite rightly point out their isn't the money for it.

Air Defense (as were the Air/Sea rescue helicopters) , is still an important project, and I would rather it get done over a long period, ie Pilots this year, Planes the year after next, than it not get done at all.

Rolo Tomasi

I agree with dahamsta, why in Gods name do we need 10 more pilots. Although maybe its for Search and rescue.

This is the pride of the Irish fleet.

SIAI-Marchetti SF.260WE Warrior

Aircraft SIAI Marchetti SF 260 WE
Engines One 260hp (194kW) Textron Lycoming O-540-D4A5 piston engine
Max T/O Weight 1300 kg
Cruise Speed 155 kts
Max Speed 235kts
Endurance 4 Hours
Service Ceiling Operating Ceiling 10,000 ft
Crew / Passenger No's Fully aerobatic 2 persons. Utility 3 persons.
Armament 2 x 7.62 mm Machine Guns or 12 x SNEB 68mm Rockets
Range 620miles
Wing Span 27ft 4.25in (8.3m)
Height 7ft 11in(2.41m)
Length 23ft 3.5in (7.1m)
Entered Service Oct 1976

ROLE:

The SF 260 came into service in 1977. The Air Corps has a total of 7 in service. It is used primarily for pilot training (elementary and basic) and has secondary roles in light attack, photographic reconnaissance, ceremonial fly pasts and aerobatic displays.

http://www.military.ie/aircorps/marchetti.htm

Typedef

The new pilots are in my opinion a step (of which Ireland has taken and will take) in many of becoming an actively non-neutral nation, most likely allied to NATO in some for or other.

Note: The end is nigh

dahamsta

This a chicken and egg situation, which do you get first the Plane or the Pilots. Ideally you would get both at the same time, but as you quite rightly point out their isn't the money for it.

Ideally, you would get neither. We don't need them, and we certainly can't afford them. Put it in the health system. Our own one for preference.

[ EDIT: By the way, what Typedef said. ]

adam

Given that a baby died , half way between monaghan and Cavan,possibly out of stupidity by the health service, last night,spending money on fighter craft/pilot training is an out and out disgrace in my honest opinion.
mm

RicardoSmith

Its a waste of money. The aircraft are not suited for search and rescue or any other policing tasks. A helicopter would much better value for money. All they are is a token. Just a very expensive one. Remember that Harrier that over flew Ireland a few years back, the pilot had ejected but the plane continued across ireland an crashed into the sea. We didn't have any aircraft cabable of reaching it at the height it was at anyway. The planes are not a credible defense from anything. I would love to see a list of the operations these aircraft have been on over the past year and the cost of running them over the same period.

The health service needs this money. I think the idea of having to wait months for operations and wait days on trolleys is really sick in a country that had so much money until recently.

Elmo

There part of the Rapid Reaction Force. After all we eventually signed up for it.

Meh

Originally posted by Elmo
There part of the Rapid Reaction Force. After all we eventually signed up for it.

Yeah, I'm sure the EU Rapid Reaction Force is just desperate for the help of our Marchetti propeller-driver trainers, with their fearsome dual 7.62mm machine guns. They'll probably be able to retire a few stealth bombers, or scrap the Eurofighter...

MDR

I wouldn't argue that the defense forcesis more in need of money than the health service , I don't think anyone could. My issue with the health service has always been the woeful value for money it offers, but I digress.

About fourteen years ago when the army was out looking for the Border Fox, my Dad and I meet a soldier. I can't exactily remember why we were is Cavan at the time, the Soldier had been issued with a old Bolt Action Shotgun, circa 1945, which he was embarassed to confess didn't work, he said of

'If I meet your man (the border fox) around the next corner, I would be well and truely fecked', we sympathised and drove on. Defenses forces in general always seem like a waste of money on the balance sheet, but when you need em, and you don't have them ....its a different story altogether.

Elmo

Yeah, I'm sure the EU Rapid Reaction Force is just desperate for the help of our Marchetti propeller-driver trainers, with their fearsome dual 7.62mm machine guns. They'll probably be able to retire a few stealth bombers, or scrap the Eurofighter...

I was being sarcastic.

About fourteen years ago when the army was out looking for the Border Fox, my Dad and I meet a soldier. I can't exactily remember why we were is Cavan at the time, the Soldier had been issued with a old Bolt Action Shotgun, circa 1945, which he was embarassed to confess didn't work

During the war Eamonn De Valera Set up fake canons made of wood and painted in green and pointed them sea so that germans and british would not attack. He had men look after them as though they were real. Fortunaly the germans never got this far, if they did we'd be f u c k e d

Scruff

Over the last few years there has been an awful lot of pilots leaving the Air Corps to take up jobs in the private sector where they earn buckets more cash so to say their not needed is incorrect. Though the Air Corps doesn't exactly have huge numbers of aircraft you still need to train people to be ready to take over for those that leave in the future, for what ever reason.

If the government is to go ahead and eventually buy the new medium range helicopters they will need trained pilots or else the copters are just going to be sitting on the ground doing nothing and then people will be whinging about that, which would be an even greater waste of money. it takes a couple of years to get pilots up to the standard necessary for the operations that those helicopters will need so training pilots now makes sense.

Also pilots will be needed to fly the new Garda helicopter which will be an around the clock service so you would need at least 4 or 5 pilots to fly them year round.

Theres also the government jet. i'm sure the powers that be would rather make use of their expensive aircraft that fly ryanair everywhere.

If you think the money it costs to train 10 pilots would make a big difference to the health service you are sadly mistaken. Billions have been pumped into the Health Servoces over the past few years and it is still a shambles.

my 2cent.

MDR

Theres also the government jet. i'm sure the powers that be would rather make use of their expensive aircraft that fly ryanair everywhere.

its buggered, it can't fly and isn't worth fixing appartentily ...

RicardoSmith

Its the fixed wing aircraft which are not needed, and by default any pilots for them are also a complete waste. Training pilots for fixed wing aircraft is completely different. They would have to be retrained from scratch to operate helicopters. Its like comparing a Vet to a Doctor. So training replacements for pilots whom do nothing, and are a complete waste themselves in the first place is utter stupidity.

Billions have been wasted in the health service for sure. But I'd prefer them wasted there, instead of in airplanes and pilots which are completely extraneous to any requirements Ireland has.

EU Rapid Reaction Force - ha ha ha ha ha too funny.

Incidentally do we have a space programme? Because we definately have a few space cadets...

Typedef

Semantically speaking.

Nice had no impact on Ireland's participation in the EU Rapid Reaction Force. Read that again and let it sink it.

Contrary to popular belief, Ireland was 'already' comitted to participation in the Rapid Reaction Force, before the first vote on Nice ever took place.

Plus, if you want to be really cynical about it, if Ireland spent monies on building up it's military, said military could be used to further Irish economic interests under the banner of (whatever), just like every other country does.

Elmo

Contrary to popular belief, Ireland was 'already' comitted to participation in the Rapid Reaction Force, before the first vote on Nice ever took place.

Yeah I know this but the politician inside tells me otherwise. Even if I had been for nice my politician would still be telling me this. Politicians are confussing.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Nice had no impact on Ireland's participation in the EU Rapid Reaction Force. Read that again and let it sink it.

Contrary to popular belief, Ireland was 'already' comitted to participation in the Rapid Reaction Force, before the first vote on Nice ever took place.

Weren't you arguing the exact opposite around the time of the Nice referendum?

Originally posted by Typedef:
clearly Article 2.2 of the Nice Treaty does affect the Rapid Reaction Force (if the Treaty is accepted on the second sitting) and the constitutional barrier the governmnet are attempting to get passed only effects Article 2.1.

Call that histeria if it makes you feel easy about voting Yes, to my mind I do not want the Rapid Reaction Force given a mandate to do combat with Irish troops and I will vote No to the Nice Treaty for this amongst other reasons.

DiscoStu

I know where the government can get its hands on some Marchettis for fup all.

$25 baby, yeah!

at this price thee would be no need to train the pilots. if one crashes or is shot down just get another because they are so cheap.

Unless we buy ourselves some multi role fighters f-16, fa-18 or some similar cheap russinan fighter(maybe we could buy some migs from north korea) we would not be getting any kind of value for money. the primary role of the air corp is search and rescue so helicoters are what we need. when was the last time an irish plane we involved in combat? never i do belive. even with the war on terror there is no need for an airfoce unless you think the "bomb to stop terrorisim" tactics works.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
Plus, if you want to be really cynical about it, if Ireland spent monies on building up it's military, said military could be used to further Irish economic interests under the banner of (whatever), just like every other country does.

Of course you could. Then when you looked at our comparative size as a nation, you'd quickly realise that Ireland would never be able to sustain a military large enough to further Irish economic interests under any banner.

Besides...isnt this a "feature" of large governments that youre completely opposed to anyway?

jc

Victor

This is nearly meaningless as there are few enough airframes still flying. Apparently only 2 Marchettis are in flyable condition. The Fougas are time-expired. The Cessnas, Gazelles and Allouettes (first bought 1963 - would you be seen in a 1963 car?) are on their last legs. Bertie refuses to fly in a Dauphin. No new helicopters are being bought (according to the Budget estimates). There is hope for turboprop trainer, but well .. hope ...

Only the (2) Casas, the remaining (1) Beechcraft and the executive jets (Gulfstream IV & Cessna Citation) have any future in the air.

Bertie wants a new (€60m) jet in case he would be seen as "the laughing stock of Europe" during our EU presidency in 2004. Of course, I can just see Al Qaeda crashing a plane into Farmleigh during a summit and us not being able to do anything about it ... well at least Bertie would also be dead and not a laughing stock.

But the GASU took delivery of it's second helo - several years late.

See http://defence.skynet.ie/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi for more detailed discussions.

mike65

Originally posted by Victor
...first bought 1963 - would you be seen in a 1963 car?...

If it were a Ferrari 250 GT Lusso yep!

On topic, Ireland plainly (sorry) has no need for military aircraft which could be used in combat, the only role for the Air Corps should be fighting crime and policing the seas. Anything else is out of this states league. See Why Is Ireland Neutra? post for more.

Mike.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Victor
would you be seen in a 1963 car?.......Bertie refuses to fly in a Dauphin.

I think when you spend a few million you can expect a longer lifespan then the usual 10yrs for a car! 20-30 yr old life spans are not unusual for aircraft.

Did he give any reason why he won't fly in one?

DiscoStu

Did he give any reason why he won't fly in one?

How can you exploit your unlimited expense account when the room for the mini bar was taken up by life saving equipment?