Dessie O'hare Should Stay In The Slammer Forever

Originally posted by daveirl
Slightly Old Numbers but I'm too tired to get newer one's



Now that was €4.8 billion. If we take the increase due to inflation and write that off against the decrease due to the 'cessation' of military activities, lets say we have a loose figure of €4.5 billion. Now lets say for the sake of arguement the Republic has 1.5 million workers. €4500 million divided by €1.5 million gives us €3000 for each person per annum. Do you seriously think anyone is going to pay that sort of money so we can have a United Ireland?

Ah but you are discounting the appeal of Irish ministers in Europe, with their begging bowl, post unification.
It's only recently that clever use of regionalisation has been operated in the UK, thats how North and West Wales are falling into a priority funding category.
I think you'll find that a lot of the public money spent by the UK government, historically was on defence,roadbuilding and repairing infrastructure regularally damaged by IRA Bombing, as well as compensating bombed out business that weren't getting insurance cover for acts of terrorism.
Now if you take away the Army,and assume the IRA is no longer bombing, and assume that most of the Road network is built, then our pockets are safe.
mm

eugene

Exactly what points do you want me to address Bonkey then? It makes me feel somewhat sick to listen to you and others smuggly being so selective in your choice of argument. Do any of you live in the North at all? We are well used to being regarded as black sheep by so many in the republic. Out of sight out of mind, that was always the case, wasn't it? So, ask me direct questions and I will answer them honestly. But whatever I say is only my opinion. I don't claim to be right about everything I think. But everyone has the right to be wrong. You should really try to be less arrogant and maybe then, we could have a reasonable discussion!

bonkey

Originally posted by eugene
Do any of you live in the North at all?

Not me. My family havent lived in the North since they moved just South of the Border after it being suggested to them that it might be a good idea to to leave.

But that, nor the relations I still have up around the border, nor the work I've done in Belfast, nor the friends I have from the North with whom I've discussed these things could possibly qualify me to know anything about the situation in the North, could it.

We are well used to being regarded as black sheep by so many in the republic. Out of sight out of mind, that was always the case, wasn't it?

To use your own logic against you : you dont live here. What could you know about us and how we think or feel?

So, ask me direct questions and I will answer them honestly.

If you look back up along, I think you'll find there's several outstanding. At least one from daveirl IIRC.

But whatever I say is only my opinion. I don't claim to be right about everything I think.

Fair enough.

You should really try to be less arrogant and maybe then, we could have a reasonable discussion!

And for someone throwing around "get a life" comments and such, you should really try to be less impolite, and maybe then we could also have a reasonable discussion.

I cant stop you - you're not breaking any rules - its only a suggestion. If you disagree, then fine.

jc

Typedef

Dessie O'Hare should stay in the slammer, for sure.

Only, in this Republic we have a thing called 'due process' and due process and the presumption of guilt frequently allows guilty men to go free on the premis that the burdon of proof has not been satisfied.

Now before the flamethrowers come out, I'm not saying this guy should be allowed to go free, but, it is too late to go meddeling in the process that has been set in motion, because once one does so and extraneously abrogates agreements laid down and validated by plebiscite (read rewrite of the Good Friday Agreement), one opens a Pandora's box of recrimination and uncertainty.

If Dessie O'Hare is stopped from leaving prison under the Terms of the Good Firday Peace Agreement (and it was a peace agreement), then, why not have Unionist politicians intercede in any number of 'Republican' clemancy cases or vice-versa?

It would be great if it were possible to Cherry pick who gets let out of prison, but it is impossible to stop the release now for reason (x). In this instance I happen to agree with reason (x), ie, that a dentist had his fingers chizled off by this nut-job O'Hare, but similarly there are a lexicon of people who would object to the release of any number of prisoners from the 'troubles' (read war) by any number of people, for any number of reasons.

O'Hare should have been on a list agreed by the participants of the Good Friday negotiations as 'criminals' as opposed to political prisoners. Again, even the notion of special cases where the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply creates the possibility of political machinations causing a quagmire.

In this case Dessie O'Hare is one of those men (the bad guys) who gets freed, so that the other guys, can go free.

I don't support physical force to exponenciate Irish nationalism against civilians, in fact I never support war waged against civilians and that principle applies not just to Afghanistan and Iraq, but to this Republic, the six counties and the UK too.
That said, the IRA were fighting a war and it was supported by elements of this State's government, military and civilian population. Charles Haughey for example, is know, by knowledgeable canines wandering around the streets of this island, to have had a hand in supplying arms to the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

The Irish State could never have interceded to help the Nothern Nationalists, even though such military action was considered by the Taoiseach of this country http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/480506.stm , because the British would have utterly crushed the Irish army, without question. However, the actions taken by the Republicans were similar to those taken by the Palestinians, perhaps that is a little hard to see when it takes place so close to home, but nonetheless, I find it difficult to argue that Palestinians have a just cause, whilst Irish Northern Nationalists did not. Somehow I fail to find a reasonable disjunction to endow Palestinians with the right to redress their grievance but not the Irish and again, before I get flamed, I don't support military action (be that action paramilitary or otherwise) to be taken (however accidental or not in Dessie O'Hare's case) against civilian populations.

Sure there is disparity in the two situations (before the flames start) in that the Unionists were the majority in the Northern State, but that doesn't change the basic fact that Northern Nationalists were getting a raw deal and were not treated with equality in the North.

Again the argument that rings true for Palestinians that you don't just 'decide' to be a terrorist for fun, rings true for Irish people too, you have to have a reason to do things like blow up buildings. Civilians aren't buildings though, so don't go there.

I've got to be honest, though. The Republicans didn't loose the war. Look at the facts. Quite soon Sinn Fein will most likely become part of the Northern Policing boards, as is part of the Home Rule dispensation that the Good Friday Peace Agreement entailed. For Republicans (former paramilitaries) to play a part, not just in the Government, but in the security arrangements of the Northern States, simply implys that it was ultimately the Unionist position of unfettered and total Union "a Protestant State for a Protestant People" that has been undermined and rightly so, Religous discrimination is wrong and it was right that such discrimination is attemptedly being redressed.

The ends don't justify the means (so again don't go there).

I think the Good Friday Agreement (read Joint Authority or 'Home Rule', whatever floats your boat), is the only reasonable (and peaceful) alternative to repartition of the Northern State. In this light, how can someone claim that it is Republicanism or rather Nationalism that has lost out? Joint Authority is after all much much closer to a Republic, then Direct Rule and the root causes of the conflict are slowely being removed? That's not a loss, that's a victory, but not for something as narrow as a Republic, it's a victory for people and for equality, that's what counts at the end of the day, not some damned flag or some idea of a Republic or the UK, which invariably fails to live up to expectations.

Ultimately it is the people of the UK & Ireland who are the real winners, because collectively, Irish & British can get on with the business of living and being prosperous as opposed to killing each other.

Well said Type you have captured the nubb of the matter in your above post, imho.
mm

daveirl

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Originally posted by daveirl
Typedef: Well written post, but I think comparing NI to Israel/Palestine is a quantum leap I won't make! I mean come on, it was in 1166 when NI was invaded. The Brits are hardly an occupying force. Show me some UN resolutions saying that the british should leave and then maybe I'll accept the comparison

I think you mean Ireland there as opposed to NI;)
They didn't land at Newry:D
Seriously though, both had a peace process, the Irish one being somewhat of a sucess, while the Middle east one was left to flounder.
It shows how lucky we are on these islands to be dealing with Tony Blair rather than the current crop of Israeli leaders.
mm

dahamsta

[ Sorry for weighing in here, but some of this really gets on my tits. ]

As for accusing me of being sectarian, that really annoys me. It is something that I have never been guilty of.

But what about...

that is the sort of Protestant bull that we Catholics grew up with

I call that sectarian. Possibly it was the sort of bull propogated by ignorant people, but not solely by protestants -- as we've seen time and time again, there's plenty of ignorance to go around on both sides. (I pick on this particular comment simply because it annoys me. I'm a Catholic, my mother's a Protestant. Tarring my mother, one of the most balanced people I know, as having something in common with the ignorant folk you're talking about, really pisses me off.)

just like so many Protestants in this town, they cannot bring themselves to utter a "Catholic" name

Ever think that they simply don't want to utter your name, because of the ill-considered things you say?

adam

swiss

I think I'll drag up this thread again. I remember reading an article some weeks ago about Dessie O'Hare and the crimes he committed. In one respect I agree with the necessity of releasing republican and loyalist prisoners for the sake of peace and stability of the Island. I do appreciate that it is a bitter pill to swallow for the realatives of those concerned, we are getting a taste of that which northern families have to endure every day, seeing murderers of their loved ones walking free on the streets.

On the other hand, the nature of the crimes committed gives me pause about their eligability for release. The premeditated torture that Dessie O'Hare committed upon another person was shocking beyond belief. He terrorised an entire country, forcing a large army and garda operation to finally capture him in a bloody shootout. He might claim that he did committed these acts for a lofty ideal of Irish unity, but I hold ransom demands for respectable citizens and the struggle for freedom in the north as mutually exculsive concepts.

It sometimes sickens me how membership of the IRA is abused as an umbrella by the unscrupulous to get away with horrendous acts of criminal intent. It is clear to many that the IRA have a machiavaillian attitude to collecting funds to fuel their struggle for 'freedom'. The question must be asked however where one draws the line between legitimate funding endeavours IRA operatives carry out in the south of Ireland and other places, and what constitiues a blatant abuse of position to furthur their own power and riches. Does it take a tragedy and travesty of the magnitide of Omagh to make one say "the monster responsible must not qualify for early release".

The phrase "what you reap is what you sow" springs to mind. I believe Dessie O'Hare will not escape punishment, not from our battered judicial system but from his betrayed INLA colleagues. Frankly, I won't weep at any suffering he may endure. However the precedent his release can only encourage criminal activities by terrorists.

eugene

I call that sectarian. Possibly it was the sort of bull propogated by ignorant people, but not solely by protestants -- as we've seen time and time again, there's plenty of ignorance to go around on both sides. (I pick on this particular comment simply because it annoys me. I'm a Catholic, my mother's a Protestant. Tarring my mother, one of the most balanced people I know, as having something in common with the ignorant folk you're talking about, really pisses me off.)

Right then, I apologise for writing that. I meant to write "Unionist" rather than "Protestant".

Ever think that they simply don't want to utter your name, because of the ill-considered things you say?

No, you are completely wrong with that possibility because I don't say ill-considered things about my Protestant neighbours etc. I was only stating what an elderly Catholic had said to me, it wasn't something that I had even been aware of until he suggested it and since then, it seems that he had a point.

TrevorOcon

In the view of myself and quite a few others O'Hare did O'Grady and his MILLIONAIRE father a favor by not doing anything more horrific than slicing of the ENDS of two of his fingers [How about being some what ACCURATE here Bertie ? it wasn't whole fingers it was the Ends of two fingers ((not that that is a walk in park of course BUT ))] >> you know when you have a Da who is a Millionaire and quite content to have British owning the North - and when that Millionaire Da is willing to TAKE A CHANCE with his son's life - Because he loves his Euros $ so much- by not taking an INLA ransom demand Seriously - what would you Expect !!???

Is it the right way to conduct revolution to chop off the ends of Millionaire's son's fingers in order to fund that revolution ?? Probably not - but YOU tell me ..... IS there any 'right' way to carry out revolution ?

Far worse things were being done by BOTH sides (and more especially the British) in Michael Collin's day - and like it or not - it Due to some of those very painful and violent acts that you can sit around condemning current day revolutionists in a Free (Southern) Ireland today.

All the aghast horror about such a thing being done as part of revolutionary violence to Unify Ireland - bespeaks the do-nothing always 'Safe' armcharm moraliser - in my opinion.

Or are you essentially British?

daveirl

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TrevorOcon

You state in the below quote:
>As has been discussed earlier the INLA were/are criminals and even the Provos saw this. Most of them were kicked ouf of the IRA for being far more concerned about personal profit than anything else.<

This being 'true' - which I don't think that you can demonstrate - Show me where ANY faction of the IRA the 'Real IRA' or the Provos went on record against Dessie being released as part of the Good Friday Agreement ? And If they Didn't go on record disagreeing with his release with all the the rest of them - where does that leave your argument for any faction of IRA disavowing O'Hare? Did Adams say that he 'was not part of those struggling for a unified Ireland and therefore he should not be released." ?

I have agreed that there is probably no right humane way to conduct a revolution. However the Ulster boys and the British Tortured IRA prisoners regardless of the severity of their actions.

Look Dave - we still have Resistance, action and the revolution going on against the British .... and although it may seem quite to us now - and there may be more defeats for us - there will be NO Surrender until All Ireland is Irish.

There are those British/Ulstermen willing to Kill to keep the North part of Britian and there are those Republicans willing to kill to take it back.

So what do YOU think should be done ?? Let all those Irishmen who have died in the struggle to unify Ireland who Trusted that those who came After them would NEVER give up - and lie unredeemed and betrayed in their graves ?

As Pearse said " They have left us our Irish dead and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland Unfree, shall NEVER be at peace.

daveirl

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Snowball

how lond did he seave in total?
sounds like a f**ked up puppy and should not be loose