Is it time for the IRA to disband?

eugene

Of course it can and will survive. The Republican movement is winning every round, even if it just might not seem that way. Do you not think that Blair is totally pissed of with the non-stop intransigence of the Unionists. Remember this also, up until fairly recent times, a United Ireland was part of the Labour Party Manifesto. Okay, so they removed it because it could have caused some problems but do you not think that Blair (clearly a man with a huge ego) would want to be the man who "solved" the eternal (infernal) Irish problem. No matter what else he may do in his lifetime, that would be one for the history books for evermore! The IRA are under no pressure, I can assure you, and if and when they decide to disband, it will be entirely on their terms. And I can also assure you of this, if they make a gesture in that direction, there will be fruitful rewards in abundance from the British, even though thay too will be under (well under) the table. Someone should disband Trimble and then tell tose other two cretinns to F**k Off. The DUP don't matter because Blair just isn't interested in them. The best thing that can happen to them would be if Paisley just slipped away in his sleep some night soon, maybe then they could become a democratic party rather than a dictatorship!

Sand

If anyone is winning its ordinairy people in Northern Ireland - The level of terrorism has been reduced significantly if not completely eliminated. It is likely the "patriots" of both sides will now devote themselves entirely to their mafia activities but at least theyve stopped murdering schoolchildren in the name of a united Ireland or the Crown every second week.

In a wonderful world it would be best for the IRA to disband, a welcome end to an organisation which has killed more catholics in Northern Ireland than any other faction ( including the british army) whilst all the time claiming to be the defender of the community. However in the practical world we live in it would probably be best for it to continue to exist but to simply dwindle away as the leadership can hopefully curb the tendencies of the scum under their control.

eugene

Right then Sand, name me one Republican who you can justify your statement about Mafiosi on "both sides". The Republican movement has very strict discipline and you are very wrong to draw comparisons between them and the very obvious Loyalist thugs and gangsters. There is not one Republican who you could compare with that **** Adair for example. So, c'mon, prove your point! Do you even live here in the North? If you don't, then you have no right to pass unjustified and cynical comments.

bonkey

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
My sig means our day will come if you want to know.

I know exactly what your sig means. How would I know to say that your sig is perhaps one of the problems here if I didnt know what it means.

I think it is a very emotive piece of irish that everybody seems to know and has a deep meaning.

While its origins may be somewhat nobler, its common usage today is supposedly to express Nationalism or Republicanism, but in reality has become associated almost solely with the IRA. Whether you agree with or accept that association is not the issue - the association will be made by others. You know - a bit like people assuming I know SFA about Ireland cause my profile says I live in Switzerland...or assuming that Swiss is about the same because of his chosen nickname.

[/b][/quote]I do not defend any acts of violence but try to keep balanced the arguement. [/b][/quote]
I'm curious...How can you defend the IRA in any way without defending the acts of violence that they have carried out?

You claim they re-invented themselves in the 60s to protect the people. How did they do this? I'm pretty sure it wasnt by peaceful protests and political rallies. Nope - I'm pretty sure it was through violence. At best, you could argue that in the 60s they were a form of vigilanteism rather than terrorism, but Im afraid that you're still condoning violence if you support their actions.

In fact, about the only things which you could possibly support the IRA for which arent violent in nature are their "normal" criminal actions.

Now, dont get me wrong...I'm not saying that the establishment were in any way respectable during this period either, but it is possible for both sides to be wrong...which in this case they are.

So I say my bit and I'm accused of being a member, well f*ck it I better join up 2day if every1 is so quick to jump to conclusions.

You were not accused of being a member. The word Victor used was "friends".

Just as you feel you have a right to express your (albeit qualified) support of the IRA, so too do others have the right to express their feelings about the same group and/or their supporters.

Freedom of speech is a double-edged blade like that.

eugene

Right then Sand, name me one Republican who you can justify your statement about Mafiosi on "both sides". The Republican movement has very strict discipline and you are very wrong to draw comparisons between them and the very obvious Loyalist thugs and gangsters. There is not one Republican who you could compare with that **** Adair for example. So, c'mon, prove your point! Do you even live here in the North? If you don't, then you have no right to pass unjustified and cynical comments.

Shinji

Just because the Republican paramilitaries don't have a convenient hate figure of the stature of Johnny Adair doesn't mean that they're not a bunch of racketeering bloody criminals.

Remove the politics from the equation and it's patently obvious that the activities of paramilitaries on both sides of the divide are almost identical to those of the early Mafia in the USA. They practically run their own areas of the North; they keep their own populations under control (through vigilante activities against unsanctioned crime for one), run their own protection rackets and their own drugs and smuggling rings...

You think any of that lucrative trade is going to stop when there's no more political reason? You think the twisted men and women who have thrived on the power and fear instilled by their membership of these organisations are going to settle down and become useful members of the community?

Some chance.

Northern Ireland will be a hive of organised crime and racketeering long after any form of settlement of its political situation has been reached. Once the blinkers of Republican fervour induced stupidity have been removed, even the dogs in the streets can see that much; and once they can see that much, maybe they can start to see why the biggest barrier to your utopian United Ireland isn't the loyalists in the North; it's the people of the South who'd really rather not try and swallow that festering pit of crime and social problems, thanks very much.

eugene

Is that so now? And just where do you live that you can make a claim like that, regarding Republicans? I don't see it happening anywhere withing a 40 mile radiius (at least) of where I live in County Derry. So, tell me, where is it happening?

Shinji

I don't see it happening

I refer the gentleman to the "blinkers of Republican fervour induced stupidity" comment I made one moment ago.

I don't see New York from where I'm sitting. Does that mean it doesn't exist?



Oh, and as for where I live - thankfully, I now live nowhere bloody near Northern Ireland. 18 years in close proximity is enough for me. Don't you have any better rebuttals than "WELL YOU DON'T LIVE IN THIS SHITHOLE SO WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW!" to pull out of your sleeve? That one's getting pretty boring now.

daveirl

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eugene

Well Shinji, (and Davegirl) you may have got out of here, and you may think that the "you don't live here" argument is boring...but it's still a fact. You may come up with opinions and ideas in your head but you aren't qualified to make judgements. I tend to agree with you about this place being a ****hole and I would like my children to not have to live through what I did. I was 16 when the first Civil Rights march took place and therefore I have lived through all of it, so I feel qualified to give genuine and honest opinions. Regarding "Mafia" like republicans. There are gangsters and thugs in every society. It is dead easy to be a gangster and "use" the term republican to frighten people. The IRA are not Mafia nor gangsters. They shoot (or used to shoot) these type of people for their anti-social behaviour because the corrupt police force here in the North did not act against them. As regards IRA intransigence about not joining the police boards etc.....get real. The PSNI are the same rotten people who were there before thay changed the name. You should try living where I do, in a basically trouble and sectarian free atmosphere, and try to get the police to help with any social problems..they don't want to know, particularly if you are a Nationalist. That's the way it is pal so don't you sit there in the good ol US of A and lecture me. I live in the real world here and the IRA are still a very nessecary force to be in the background, as a reminder of how things have to change, if nothing else. I have known too many people who have died for their Republican beliefs and principles and you have some cheek and arrogance to try and dirty their names and their sacrifices. You are so typical of those who don't live here and now pass judgement, you and those like you are pathetic.

DeVore

I dont see how I'm being hypocritical by claiming that part of the IRA's idealogy was to protect nationalists and that attempts at that were done during their campaign. I'm not saying that violence is right, but protection is different to attack and terrorist bombings. I'm not against violence so much not to defend myself against attack, in practice I wouldnt anyway. I feel the IRA are misguided in thinking violence will ever bring about a united Ireland but I do share some of their ideology.........

Two words: Canary Warf

Havent heard you explain that you hypocrite.


I despise Republicans. I'm a catholic, I was born in Belfast. My family were burnt out of our houses by thugs. They happened to be Unionist thugs but they were thugs just like the republican ones.

I've no time for you and I dont want you on my website. I'm not going to kick you off cos you'll just whinge for your "rights" (convenient the way rights come into play when it suits... I wonder how the people of Omagh feel about your rights...).

But that doesnt mean I have to sit here and let you say what you like unchallenged. The IRA are thugs. They have stood between us and the United Ireland that I would very much like to see for far too long. They've sullied our flag, our national anthem to the point where people are ashamed to wave it or sing it.

Tiocfaidh ár la? You're day is long gone my friend. You are an anachronism that should have been left behind a long time ago.

Rot.

DeV.

Originally posted by daveirl
Firstly rien_du_tout's comments:

This is really interesting. Can you tell me when Ireland was 'as 1' because last time I checked a history book Ireland was never 'as 1'. Just because we're an island and it make a nice geographical unit doesn't mean it should all be one country. Should all of North America be one country or all of the Iberian peninsula. No! Same rules apply in Ireland.

Dave I don't think thats fair comment as it does down the legitimate peacefull aspirations of the many constitutional nationalists in Northern Ireland.
Remember, many who vote Sinn Féin in the North , who do so now and may never have done so before, vote tactically.

And regarding Geographical units, Ireland is an Island called Ireland, and not part of a continental masse, the concept of Northern Ireland was actually artificially created.
I do believe also that the old Bank of Ireland building opposite Trinity was the parliament of all Ireland including the six counties prior to the act of Union.
mm

daveirl

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Originally posted by daveirl
No more so than any other border, to be honest. Also let me clarify. AN INDEPENDENT IRISH STATE never existed so that arguement is completely invalid.

[

Hang on, now, I was replying to your statement:

This is really interesting. Can you tell me when Ireland was 'as 1' because last time I checked a history book Ireland was never 'as 1'.

Clearly Ireland was one unit and governed as such, before it's political partition.
I never mentioned an independent Irish state, I was referring to your as 1 remark.
Next you'll be telling me Scotland was never a unit, or Wales for that matter.
mm

Boston

History has proven that demilitarization is much more important then disbandment. Demilitarization will save life's and take weapons off the streets, disbandment is more of a political thing forced upon the looser of a war in an effort to embarrass them. It would have little real benefit. The disbandment of the RUC would have been much more productive.

I notice no loyalist movement taking these first steps, it was the republicans that called the first cease fires, the republicans that where the first and only to take part in meaningful decommissioning and now it is the republicans that are expected to disband first with no guarantee that loyalist organizations will follow, that the new police force will be any difference then the last or that unionist elements will even share power with them.

The hole notion stinks, and I feel that's its just certain people looking to start the war up again to gain back control

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
OK, so basically I disagree with the notion that the IRA needs to disband before any more progress can be made in the GFA, or for others across the irish sea - the Belfast Agreement.

I agree with this. The UUP signed up to the GFA – they should stick to it. Those who are not engaged in paramilitary activities should not be punished because of the actions of those who are. The current impasse in the peace process is wholly and entirely the fault of the UUP.

I think at a time when loyalist paramilitaries are not on ceasefire and very obviously with the main proportion of violence coming from their side. Is that a time for an organisation which claims to want to protect nationalists to disband?

Yes they should disband. The IRA is an illegal paramilitary organisation whose very existence is injurious to the cause of Irish unification. If they don’t disband voluntarily, then they should be disbanded forcibly by the security forces in both jurisdictions.

Originally posted by Typedef
Time for the IRA to disband? Realistically if it were to do so right this instant, there would be many splinter organisations who would soak up the real hard line Republicans, embittered at what would be regarded as capitulation to British pressure, and most likely ready and willing to wage another war to redress this precieved agrievement. No, disbandment under such circumstances would be counterproductive.

This argument should be ignored by both governments. To turn a blind eye to criminality would be a total abrogation of the moral and legal authority of the State.

Boston

If they don’t disband voluntarily, then they should be disbanded forcibly by the security forces in both jurisdictions.

Because that working soooo well in the past?

daveirl

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Boston

Originally posted by daveirl
But Biffa the UUP are protesting that the IRA won't disband. I feel they're justified. Yes they are a stuborn bunch but the best way to deal with that would be to not give them any reason to bitch.

So the best way to deal with a spoilt child is to give in. The likes of the uup will always have something to bitch about because that's how they keep control. There always needs to be an enemy. First it was decommissioning, now its disbandment, next it will be constitutional amendment that the north will never leave the UK.

Was IRA disbandment a condition of the GFA, answer no, therefore they should shut up. The IRA provided a real example of decommissioning, they went out on a limb, took a risk when really there was no evidence they would receive any benefit from it, that it would solve any problems, and it didn't. The unions just went onto their next demand.

Trouble is probably the word disband and what it implies.
There was huge kafuffle when the RUC became the PSNI, from the Unionist side, over emblems and stuff.
Looking from the outside in, I would say,if as is likely Sinn Féin do join the policing boards, and the 50:50 religous mix is continued, eventually the PSNI will evolve into something acceptable to Republicans.

Whats needed now in the entanglement that is NI, is some method for the IRA to be seen to be standing down and Unionist to accept that and not look for something else when thats done.

Really the only foward direction in NI , now is an evolving one.
No winners, no losers, just gradual rebirth,otherwise it's going to be a continuation or return to tit for tat.

I for one would like to see what sort of society will develop , there over the next 30 years without the widespread shootings and bombings of the 70's and 80's.
To do that , you have to recognise, a thread softly, softly approach, even if it does mean, walking on a bit of broken glass (figuratively speaking) from time to time.
mm

eugene

Daveirl, you really do talk so much crap. The people here did not compromise anything. The protestant people were delighted that things were going to change for the better. Thing is, too many thought that they were going to get their little statelet back (remember a protestant state for a protestant people). When things didn't go as planned, they were ripe for manipulation by their elected representatives such as Donaldson et al and that is why they are so against the agreement now. What are you trying to do bringing Hitler into this debate for, he committed suicide anyway so he certainly didn't die for his beliefs (more crap from ya). Catholicism is the real bogeyman here as far as Protestants are concerned and their leaders milk that for everything they can get out of it. quote...They also smuggle vast amounts of goods and rob banks and murder guards. (McCabe Case) Why the **** do either of these two things have to do with a corrupt force in the North....... what has this got to do with now.today....the present situation. What world of propoganda do you live in? We are talking here about the north of Ireland and the dirty rotten corrupt Protestant police force...what are you talking about. I have lived through it all pal and I can assure you....NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!! You sit there in the smug comfort of wherever you are and attempt to attack the Republican movement which is finishing off something that began many many years ago, get a life!!!!!!

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Boston
Because that working soooo well in the past?

Doesn't mean it can't be done better in the future.
Anyway, the only alternative to security measures is appeasement of subversive paramilitaries, which no democrat should countenance.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by daveirl
But Biffa the UUP are protesting that the IRA won't disband. I feel they're justified. Yes they are a stuborn bunch but the best way to deal with that would be to not give them any reason to bitch.

They're quite right to protest, but the only appropriate response is to implement a security crackdown on subversives, not to renege on a constitutional agreement their party signed up to.

Sand

Right then Sand, name me one Republican who you can justify your statement about Mafiosi on "both sides". The Republican movement has very strict discipline and you are very wrong to draw comparisons between them and the very obvious Loyalist thugs and gangsters. There is not one Republican who you could compare with that **** Adair for example. So, c'mon, prove your point! Do you even live here in the North? If you don't, then you have no right to pass unjustified and cynical comments.

The Border Fox, kidnapped a dentist (valid milatary target, comrade), ransomed him, and mutilated him to make his point. The gang which murdered McCabe and Co in an armed robbery, and the gang which was ambushed by the Gardai on their way to rob a security van near Naas i think. Stuck in my mind due their use of rocket launcher and the death of one of the thugs. Mind you thats just of the top of my (tired) head- feel free to educate yourself in your own time.

All fine upstanding young men Im sure. Very disiplined though I agree - they wouldnt be engaged in crime without direction, = Organised Crime =Mafia =IRA and their ilk.

Hoooray for logic.

daveirl

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This is getting emotive
You see, regular debate rules don't always spring to mind when one is in the thick of a situation that re inforces your position.

From my reading of this Eugene is living in the midst of a still sectarian society with all the baggage that implies.
To a Republican in NI,who lived through the 60's or 70's in NI, the phrase " a protestant state for a protestant people " rings true, it's actualy a Carson invented phrase and not a Sinn Féin one.
so if its use by a Republican, as a description of NI society is to be described as sectarian,it's origins as a phrase from history from Carson and Unionism, certainly are.
If any protestant takes offence , from that statement,they shouldn't as it was a protestant and a unionist leader that coined it.

It's not an example of bigotry, just a fairly accurate description actually of what Unionists were at when NI was created eg, the fact that you couldn't vote unless you were a home owner, and the fact that you stood a very poor chance on the housing list if you were a catholic.

What has to be understood here to my mind anyhow is the groundbreaking "revolution" if you like that is the GFA.
Basically you have an agreement whose main purpose is to end sectarianism, by attacking it's root causes.

Now that doesn't wash with the real problem creators here, ie dissedent Republicans on the one hand who are hell bent on Revenge for years of oppression, and with some unionists on the other who have a thinly veiled wish for to do everything they can to encourage Republicans en masse back to violence, so as to see Catholics out in the cold, and thus breeding more malcontent and violence.
Sometimes in NI politics it's hard to see the bigger picture when clouded by those that have conflicting but vested interests in downing an agreement that if left alone should be the seed from which is harvested peace, understaning and a general feeling of what the heck was all that nonsense about...over the course of the next 30 years or so
Good nite folks...burp...

I'm amazed at how well, i Ican type after all the vodlka and Smir ice's I've had tonite...but then I'll see this in the morning and.... :eek:
mm

eugene

Okay then, let's get a few things straight, just for the record. I am a Republican and I make no apology for that fact. When I wrote earlier that I knew that a bombing was going to take place when the Tories decided to dishonour whatever had been agreed in their discussions with Republicans, what I meant was that it was obvious that the IRA were going to send a message. I DO NOT JUSTIFY ANY KILLING!!!!!!! Believe it or not, I have always been a pacifist and I abhorred the killings that went on in the bombing campaigns. I am not going to get into a debate about it. The fact is that it happened and that cannot be changed. What I always believed was that if the IRA were going to bomb to make the British sit up, they were wasting their time bombing the North here, they should have been bombing places like Canary Wharf, economic targets. The Canary Wharf bombing probably was the most significant over the thirty years and I believe that that is why we are in this so called peace process right now. When I write about all the crap I have to listen to "here", I don't mean on this board, I mean here in the North! I mean the non-stop games that the Unionists play, Trimble in particular! I grew up in an overwhelmingly Nationalist town and in 1970, when I was 16, due to circumstances with my father having been made redundant, we had to move to an overwhelmingly Unionist town. This was quite a culture shock, I can assure you. Me and my four brothers who were still at home, suffered the consequences of being from our old town because we were automatically treated with suspicion and quite often blind hatred. This never encouraged any of us to get involved in the struggle however. We weathered the storm and over the years, as more Catholics moved into the area, things settled down. However, the Protestants here still regard this town as "THEIR" town. Paisley once described it as "A jewel in the crown of Ulster Unionism" and the thing is, as usual, the sheep believed him and still very much display their bigotry and anti-Irishness. Strangely, we have four SF councillors and will have a SF mayoress next year. But, to try and display what is wrong here, in a fairly simple manner, listen to this. About twenty years ago, I was sitting in a pub with a friend, a Protestant friend may I add. he was a postman and although I knew he was a bigot, I overlooked it because I understood how he and so many like him, were brought up. Anyway, a programme came on the TV about Russia and being a bit of a rebel myself I wanted to watch it. MY friend, Joe, asked why I wanted to watch a show about a terrible plave like Russia. I told him to watch too and he might learn something. He said that it was a Godless country where you weren't even allowed to practice your religion. I looked at him, bemused, and said, "Sure Joe, it's not that long ago that you couldn't even practice your religion in this country!" He asked me what the hell was I talking about and I told him about how only a few hundred years ago, Cromwells troops were in Ireland to wipe out Catholicism. Told him about the penal days when Catholics had to go to woods and glens to hear Mass and how armed men had to keep watch for soldiers who would kill them and especially kill the priests. Joe was astonished and aked me, "Who told you that?" I told him that he could go to any library and get out books on the subject as there were many written accounts of the period. He said, very dogmatically, "Well, whoever wrote that is a f**king liar!"
Joe would have been in his fifties when this happened and he is still knocking about but he is a typical example of the older generation of Protestants here. They really don't know any better and all they see is this terrible organisation, the IRA, who are hell-bent on liquidating their people. I don't know how to change things here. Irish history was never taught in schools, even when I was at school. I have always believed that if it were taught properly, then Protetants might just discover that England did not deserve this loyalty that they insist on professing. They could maybe learn to embrace their Irishness and particularly today, they could learn that the Catholic church does not rule the country (perhaps their biggest fear). They still use words like Papist and Rome Rule and there is no way of getting through to them, to persuade them that there is nothing to fear.

bonkey

Originally posted by eugene
you may think that the "you don't live here" argument is boring...but it's still a fact. You may come up with opinions and ideas in your head but you aren't qualified to make judgements.

Unfortunately, those who do "live there" are too close to the events to be able to offer an unbiased, objective opinion - as evidenced by much of your postings here to date.

Lets just take a short example, shall we :

I DO NOT JUSTIFY ANY KILLING!!!!!!!
...
What I always believed was that if the IRA were going to bomb to make the British sit up, they were wasting their time bombing the North here, they should have been bombing places like Canary Wharf, economic targets.

Riiight - because everyone knows that large buildings like Canary Wharf don't actually contain any people, nor are any others in the vicinity likely to get injured or killed by the blast, the flying debris, or potentially a falling building.

The death toll may have been low, but it was greater than 0. People died as a result of the Canary Wharf bombing. They were killed. (I'm emphasising this because you dont justify killing, and I want to make sure you dont miss the point.)

So, this is they type of action you think the IRA should have been carrying out, but at the same time claim you do not justify any killing - which happens in actions such as this?

So you think that they should be carrying out these operations that you cant justify.

I believe the polite term for this is "self-contradictory". Others here may not be so polite.

So, this is what you call being "qualified" to comment? Being able to come up with self-contradictory baloney like this? I'm impressed.

jc

daveirl

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Mercury_Tilt

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