Provisional Drivers in for a tough time.....

seamus

In case you didn't already know, Seamus Brennan is changing our provisional licencing laws in 2 ways, 1 good, one bad.

Good Change: The amount of time you can hold a provisional for is limited, probably to 5 years. If you don't pass your test in this time, you're off the road. Obviously, they'll put some sort of system in place where you can get a licence just for the purposes of doing your test, if you're over the 5 year limit.

Bad Change: Going on the disproportionate no. of crashes caused by L-drivers, all L-drivers will now be required to be accompanied at all times. A sound idea in theory, but currently unfair. Many L-drivers need a car to get to work because our public transport is sh1t, and obviously will have trouble getting someone to accompany them to work every day. IMO too, the opnly way to learn to drive is experience, and it's very difficult to build up a lot of experience when you keep having to rely on a qualified driver to be around.


So I would heartily endorse change no. 1, but instead of change 2, put a testing system between each licence, i.e make sure someone going onto a 2nd prov. knows how to drive.

Opinions?

Mr E

When is this accompaniment thing kicking in? I don't think they can just suddenly introduce it in January - its not fair on provisional drivers, and the waiting lists are already out of control for driving tests.

It would have to be on a phased basis, I think.

Looks like 2003 is going to be the equivalent of the "Y2K changeover year" for driving instructors. Cha-ching.....

- Dave.

(I have a full licence, in case you're wondering, but I have a few friends on provisionals who would be lost without their cars)

Mayshine

I'm afraid I can't agree with you on point 2.

How is driving unaccomanied (sp?) really going improve your driving skills, if you have never proved that what you are doing is correct in the first place. Sure you can get in and out of work, but chances are all you are doing is reinforcing bad habits that will be ingrained within a few years making you an even worse driver

Simple fact is we need proper driver education starting in 5th year in school. This would facilitate people doing their test earlier before they need to use a car to drive to work etc. For the rest of L-plates driving to/from work, I say screw em, it not my problem and unless you have an L-plate it shouldn't be yours.

A few months of taking the bus and I'm sure these people would soon apply for their test and pass it. I put it down to lazyness, if I don't have to why should I etc....

So I would heartily endorse change no. 1, but instead of change 2, put a testing system between each licence, i.e make sure someone going onto a 2nd prov. knows how to drive.

This is called the driving test, no?, people on there second+ provisional generally have failed it:rolleyes:

Kali

Waiting lists aren't out of control.. Dublin and Kildare are only around the two/three month bracket.

If someone on a provisional really needs their car for work, then they should go pass the test.

Personally I didn't drive at all on my first provisional licence, bar one lesson, as I was too busy that year with college and working part-time, and then when I get my second, I'm allowed out on the road on my own? It was an absolutely ridiculous situation, and I'm glad they've finally changed it.

ozpass

I'm afraid I have to agree, having grown up in the UK where you simply have to pass your test before you're allowed to drive 'solo'. I find it bizarre that individuals can be 'let loose' on the roads without having passed any formal examination.

I'm sure that a lot of provisional drivers on Irish roads are extremely accomplished and skillful, but failure to legislate against those that aren't is unforgiveable.

I welcome the changes.

Kell

I have to agree with both of the proposed changes. Take our nearest European neighbour. Britain has a population of approx 26-28 million, and a fair reserved estimate of the number drivers would be about 18 million. They have 1/2 the number of road deaths per capita of Ireland which has approx 6 times less the number of people in the country let alone on the roads. Why? Learners never drive unaccompanied. Ever. No one (that I know at least) drives with even a pint on them and the consideration that British drivers afford to other road users is overwhelming as well as having an unbelievable understanding of what you should and shouldn't do behind the wheel.

I encourage anyone that drives, to drive in Britain, especially Scotland and then drive by their example. Time Irish drivers got a kick up the fuc*ing ass and cop themselves on. Drivers need to understand no, it is not OK to speed up when someone overtakes you, no, it is not OK to drive at 40 in a 70 zone, no it is not OK to drive in the dark with no lights etc etc etc ad nauseum. What I really cant understand is, if we are all taught the same way, why we all dont drive the same way? Properly.

seamus

Originally posted by Mayshine
This is called the driving test, no?, people on there second+ provisional generally have failed it:rolleyes:

Well, no, our driving test isn't nearly difficult enough. My suggestion is only stopcap. Once (if) our public transport is ever good enough, it's a perfectly valid idea, but how many people do you know drive 20+ miles every day to work, because no other mode of transport is feasible? I can think of 3 I know for a start.

Good in theory, unfair in practice (atm).

nanook

i am sorry to say this but i hounestly think that it is currenltly law that all first provisional license holders have to be accompanied by a qualified driver. This has alwys been the way, they are not changing the laws just enforcing it.

seamus

Originally posted by nanook
i am sorry to say this but i hounestly think that it is currenltly law that all first provisional license holders have to be accompanied by a qualified driver. This has alwys been the way, they are not changing the laws just enforcing it.

Nope, they're making it now so that all provisional licence holders must drive accompanied, 1st 2nd and 3rd, where before 2nd prov. holders were allowed drive unaccompanied.

Kell

Originally posted by seamus
where before 2nd prov. holders were allowed drive unaccompanied.

And thats where the problem was borne from. By your second prov your bad habits are already there, developed and flourishing. If you drove accompanied from the off with someone harping at you all the time for your mistakes there wouldn't be a need for a second provisional.

There are more wide ranging concerns here as well that I would like to bring up. Compared to the UK, drivers with their first license here pay a whack load more insurance which is often a deterrent to drivers in the 17/18/19 year old category. My fiancée is 3 years younger than I am, Scottish, and has six years more driving under her belt than I do. Why? Because most Irish drivers wouldn't even consider buying a car until they are at least 22/23/24 meaning that at a relatively late age, Irish drivers have fu*k all experience behind the wheel.

Insurance needs to come way down for early starters so that that long term they will be more experienced and, by token, safer drivers.

Jak

Well, I'm on a second provisional at the moment - with about 10 weeks left on it. My first provisional was acquired when i was 18 for the purposes of ID more or less as we had no I.D cards that were acceptable other than this or passport.

So it lapsed and I didn't drive.

Then applied for 2nd prov., however once i had it - things changed, no car, no cash for insurance etc, back injury, broken wrist etc.

Driving now for past 3-4 months applied for test last week, however and I accept it is mostly my own fault, I have been caught out by 17 week waiting lists with a provisional which will expire in 10 weeks. I am curious what exactly will happen (can't get through to test office yet) - technically if i have not sat my test on 2nd prov I cannot get 3rd prov. however if I do not have a valid license, I cannot sit the test - anyone know the likely result of this?

With regard to the new measures, I don't mind the not driving for a few weeks and being back on the bike - and I think the proposals are a good call as we do need to pressure people into sitting the test. However I think the transition should be managed a bit more gently.

JAK.

ondafly

Is it true that your car must be NCT certified before you can take the test ?

Jak

Driving test

If your car is in a category required to have the NCT done - then Yes.

All the info is on the site.

shabbyroad

Is it true that your car must be NCT certified before you can take the test ?

yes it's true, it also has to be taxed and insured and roadworthy (I know someone who had to re-apply for their test because their road-tax had expired)

all L-drivers will now be required to be accompanied at all times.

Learner drivers need not panic though because this won't be enforced , along with all the other driving legislation we have.

The system is simple : you can drive like a maniac, you can drive with bald tyres, you can drive with no licence, insurance or road tax but as soon as you park your car we're going to clamp and tow you...
...Irish solution to an Irish problem...

Krusty_Clown

ondafly: Is it true that your car must be NCT certified before you can take the test ?

If your car requires it, then yes, it must be NCT certified.

If you haven't taken your car for it's NCT when it was due, it's not road-legal anyway, and shouldn't be on the road. You're insurance may be invalidated if you have an accident, and so, you will be out of pocket in this eventuality..

Of course, all of the above does not apply to motorcycles.
There is no requirement to have a fully-licensed passenger (in fact on a prov. license it is illegal to have a pillion passenger) and there is currently no mechanism for an NCT for bikes (currently in discussion, but a long way down the road).

/me shudders thinking of all the learner drivers reaching for motorcycles as an alternative to cars, without having done any proper training. Scary thought...

Typedef

Hmm, does the impending Big Brother imposition pertain to motorcycles by any chance?

If so, I'd like my money back when the licence I just paid for gets squashed by Seamus Brennan, a Minister who has actually managed to make Irish roads even more dangerous then they were before his department was created, by singularly neglecting to enunciate any kind of scheme to hold accountable and fine, those who inadequately dig and refill Dublin's roads.

Kudos to him, the next time I hit a pothole at thirty miles an hour, that is so big, it nearly throws me off of my motorcycle, I'll remember that the Ministry for Transport thinks there is no real problem with Dublin's potholes.

If you had ever driven on Californian roads, you would notice the difference.

Still the new Department of Transport managed to loose the paperwork (and still charge me) for my first driving test, so I paid for another one. Then the Department found out that yes, it had made a mistake and gave me a new test date (but I had paid twice by credit card) and when I finally did get to go and do the test (six months after applying for it), I found that the megalomaniac tester had decided I was five minutes late and wouldn't test me.

Never fear though, Seamus Brennan is going to sort out the learner drivers.
I feel safter already.

Kell

Some people are posting about the delays in getting a driving test. If you want to sit your test, and sit it soon, send them in a fax (number is on their website somewhere) to accompany your application on company headed paper from where you work, tell them you need a full license for your job, get your boss to sign it, and Bob's your uncle. I did this and had a test date in three weeks and it applies to most of the people that I have spoken to who have done same.

Typie- are most motorcycle testers fu*kers? A mate was failed for travelling under thirty outside a church where there was pedestrians all over the place. How Fu*ked is that?

Krusty_Clown

How much under 30 was he? I was told (when doing car driving lessons) to stick to around 33mph (max 34).. otherwise they'll get you for not making enough progress..

The tester will look at the number of hazards (e.g. pedestrians) and will judge a safe speed based on this information.

So, for example, on a narrow road, with many parked cars (possiblity of children running out onto the road) then 20mph is a safe speed. If you're outisde a church, with a couple of pedestrians, then look at doing 25mph (or the appropriate speed for that environment).

I'm sure that they did not just fail him/her just for that... Under the new system, you can:
1) Make as many minor errors as you like - this will not affect the outcome of your test
2) Make 6 medium importance errors (7 = fail)
3) 1 Major error = Fail.

The same sheet (which your mate will have received) is used for both cars and bikes) - although they do have different categories for bikes. Tell them to consult the sheet to see exactly how they failed..

Unfortunately, if you fail, you cannot discuss the test with the tester. However, if you pass, you are free to ask them as many questions as you like.. Ironic (moronic?), isn't it?!

seamus

Driving now for past 3-4 months applied for test last week, however and I accept it is mostly my own fault, I have been caught out by 17 week waiting lists with a provisional which will expire in 10 weeks. I am curious what exactly will happen (can't get through to test office yet) - technically if i have not sat my test on 2nd prov I cannot get 3rd prov. however if I do not have a valid license, I cannot sit the test - anyone know the likely result of this?

When you get notification of a test date, you can use that letter to apply for a new 1 year provisional.

Typie- are most motorcycle testers fu*kers? A mate was failed for travelling under thirty outside a church where there was pedestrians all over the place. How Fu*ked is that?

The bike test seems to be a bit of a funny one. Pass rates are in the 70% zone apparently, but so many people complain of ridiculous things in the test. My brother failed because he couldn't drive along at 10 mph in 3rd gear (his bike cut out obviously, just like mine would, so that's not very fair), and he couldn't keep perfectly straight on the road. A bike only has two wheels. Add in the inconstistency of Irish road surfaces and it's impossible to keep perfectly straight.

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
Unfortunately, if you fail, you cannot discuss the test with the tester. However, if you pass, you are free to ask them as many questions as you like.. Ironic (moronic?), isn't it?!

That's for the protection of the tester more than anything. Save them getting their head smashed in by some scumbag who has a difference of opinion. Some sort of written explanation of why you failed should be posted out to you though. When I failed my first go, everything that was ticked on the sheet were all the things that pretesters had told me were good about my driving, so I didn't have a clue what to work on. Turns out experience was what I was lacking but in the current system, someone could fail 20 times over and never know exactly why. Ridiculous.

ando

Well I for one welcome the new laws. I pay €4609 for third party on a focus. I've been driving for 2 years but am 21 and male...... If L drivers are causing half the crashes out there (and causing increasing premiums), then get them off the road

however, in my experiance I've had more close calls with women drivers aged 40+ :mad:

Krusty_Clown

Seamus: My brother failed because he couldn't drive along at 10 mph in 3rd gear (his bike cut out obviously, just like mine would, so that's not very fair), and he couldn't keep perfectly straight on the road. A bike only has two wheels. Add in the inconstistency of Irish road surfaces and it's impossible to keep perfectly straight.

LOL. There is NO requirement to drive at 10mph in 3rd gear. That is just ridiculous. What you are actually required to do, is travel (in any gear) at walking pace with the tester (which is alot less than 10mph!). This demonstrates your handling ability of the bike, and is actually quite a valid excercise. BTW: It's easy. It's like the slow-bike races you used to have as a child.. I keep it in first, and keep my foot over the back brake.. Easy as p*ss.

and he couldn't keep perfectly straight on the road.

. In this case, should he really be on the road? Scary..
If you can't ride a motorcycle straight, then you need some lessons and some practise. If the road surface is uneven/potholed, you should have identified these hazards long before you encounter them, and taken the appropriate actions in order to avoid them.

I agree that the test is inapropriate, but some of the excuses I've seen for failing the test, are quite simply that.. Excuses..

Send this link onto your brother: Irish rider training.
They'll sort out his straight line/inappropriate gear issues!

mike65

Originally posted by Kell
I have to agree with both of the proposed changes. Take our nearest European neighbour. Britain has a population of approx 26-28 million, and a fair reserved estimate of the number drivers would be about 18 million. They have 1/2 the number of road deaths per capita of Ireland

I encourage anyone that drives, to drive in Britain, especially Scotland and then drive by their example. Time Irish drivers got a kick up the fuc*ing ass and cop themselves on. Drivers need to understand no, it is not OK to speed up when someone overtakes you, no, it is not OK to drive at 40 in a 70 zone, no it is not OK to drive in the dark with no lights etc etc etc ad nauseum. What I really cant understand is, if we are all taught the same way, why we all dont drive the same way? Properly.

Kell the UK poulation is nearly 60 mill with 25 million cars on the roads so proberly well over 30 million licence holders. Regarding lights this morning I flashed some plonker with no lights and this was at about 8 am! Best keep lights on all day in winter.

Mike.

halkar

Originally posted by Jak
.......Driving now for past 3-4 months applied for test last week, however and I accept it is mostly my own fault, I have been caught out by 17 week waiting lists with a provisional which will expire in 10 weeks. I am curious what exactly will happen (can't get through to test office yet) - technically if i have not sat my test on 2nd prov I cannot get 3rd prov. however if I do not have a valid license, I cannot sit the test - anyone know the likely result of this?.

Jak, I think you need to go to your test center and ask for a date once you get a date then you get another licence for a year, I did something like that before but can't remember exact details, anyway you get a licence for a year while waiting for your test

As for famous Seamus's new rules, I drive 50+ mile and back from home to work. I get up veeeery early and I have no one to drive with me :rolleyes: what will I do Seamus? Give up my job and house ? nope arrest me all I care And I know many people in this situation. I am going for my test again soon, so wish me good luck all

We have McGreedy and now famous Seamus and someone trying to ban the smoking in the pubs oh yeah I forgot it's xmas and we have Santa now and looots of new year resolutions :rolleyes:

Life goes on my friends, happy christmas and new year all May the next budget be better than this one

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Victor

I think it right to do this, too many people are misusing a bad system.

halkar

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
are there any "non selfish" reasons for driving without a full license? Seriously? ohhh how will I get to work etc? Those of you who use a car now to get to work .. who have yet to pass the test... wouldn't be driving to work if this law had existed.

But hang on.. the justification is "I" have a job and would not be able to work if "I"cant drive to it? So what. You dont get to do that job. Id love to be a lawyer.... but they wont let me. Some thing to do with exams or something. oh no wait... the state has not provide enough public transport to cater for my needs... I MUST have a car.
Sorry. Its pure ****. And you cant blame the testing system. thats a product of the current conditions.

Oh yeah!!! What about all those driving around with the licences they got from the amnesty? What if all that won't help the accidents in this country (which I doubt it will!!) and government brings in the retesting after so many year (e.g 10 years) and maybe 80% of full licences downgrades to provisionals or whatever they will call it then? Of course this sounds like impossible to happen but that is what provisional drivers were saying 5 years ago too!! I agree government was late bringing something like this out but the current testing system is cr@p!!

Finding good driving instructors is hard and all they want is your money just like the government does!! Ok there are bad drivers and good drivers but are you suggesting that if someone takes 5-10 lessons and passes their tests becomes a good driver than those on a second or thir provisional? This will not help with the insurance as they seem to know the difference between a weeks driver on full licence and a years driver on a provisional more than you do!!

Yep current system is wrong but it is not the provisional licence holders fault!! When I got my first provisional I done all that get your licence apply for your test bla bla and waited 15 months!! So what was I going to do for 15 months? And yes there is no public transport and I would love to be able to use public transport or have a house next door to my work place and save the money from running the car. But nope it is not all like that so I do need my car, call me selfish , call it pore w@nk all you like but I was just going along with the system just like the other thousands in the same situation!!

Times changes, world changes and we all change, one day we all have full licences and nothing to moan about dream on !!

Anyway not worth fighting over , it's xmas , enjoy

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Kell

This is a repeat of a contribution I made earlier re delays in getting test dates. Get your job to intervene and they'll have you tested in no time.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

gurramok

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
are there any "non selfish" reasons for driving without a full license? Seriously? ohhh how will I get to work etc? Those of you who use a car now to get to work .. who have yet to pass the test... wouldn't be driving to work if this law had existed.

I applied for my test in October, still waiting , 10 weeks gone so far. I did 25 lessons before i got my car and onto the road.
I didnt just get licence and drive and learn the controls by myself !
Perhaps it should be compulsory for learners to get a certain number of lessons before they are allowed onto the road ?
Can you honestly see them putting 350,000 cars off the road ?
The gov would lose all that valuable tax money and the insurance cartel would lose alot
By the way, how many of the 370 odd people that died on the roads this year had prov licenses ?
A learner is less likely to speed than a regular driver.

But hang on.. the justification is "I" have a job and would not be able to work if "I"cant drive to it? So what. You dont get to do that job. Id love to be a lawyer.... but they wont let me. Some thing to do with exams or something. oh no wait... the state has not provide enough public transport to cater for my needs... I MUST have a car.

I only travel 2.5 km to and from work. Problem is that its too friggin dangerous to walk/cycle the distance (its a long winding unlit country road with no footpaths), no public transport available either, no accompany driver available.
I love to know how they would enforce any rules like so-called 'on-the-spot' fines.
What would happen is that all the learners would take down their L-plates and the gardai would have to check every driver all of the time to catch and enforce this....it would be a nightmare scenario !.....like driving learners underground

Perhaps there should be a on-the-spot fine for each pothole out there ! Yesterday the council sent out a man in a tractor to fix a regular pothole, it was holed again a few days later...an irish solution to an irish problem !

As Halkar stated, they will have to arrest me to stop me, alot of people depend on the car.
Reform the system yes, but dont penalise those that bothered to get lessons and actually applied for test and making an effort to pass it.

halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
Wait now....you're saying that because 30 years ago there was an amnesty the current administration should do nothing with regard to provisional licences because another government fucked up years ago???? :rolleyes:

Stupid logic....

Why do you choose a new government in elections? To clean up the mess the previous ones do maybe Nope I am not saying current administration should do nothing regarding to the provisional licences, I agree with what they are doing. But current administration is trying to fix their own mistakes about the provisional licences, we had the same government as the last period (well almost ) , why didn't they do anything then, why they have ignored so long and let people wait for their tests for months? I think we should be able to take tests every two weeks after applying at least. What did they do about it? Nothing!! If they wanted to clear the backlog, they could have done that very long time ago but they just ignored it.

So now they are trying to change the things over the night? Sorry but it won't happen, I don't care what they do, I am waiting for my test and if I fail again I will apply again but I am not going to loose my job because I can't get to it. What do they want another few hundred thousand of unemployed people bacause they can't drive to get to work ? We pay tax to you know:D Give me decent public transport and I get rid of the car, especially it cost so much to run these days. It can even cost more than mortgage in some cases. I rather use trains or busses if have that option and have a very nice holiday from the money I save from running the car!:D

I wonder how would the people who got their licences react if the government decides to test them one day? Does it make you feel safe that there are so many people out there that has never been tested? We all be doing our tests and pass it eventually and they still be around. :rolleyes: .

Gurramok , I totally agree with you about taking down the L-plates. There are many does it already just to be on the motorways and soon when they start giving us points or whatever our punishment will be there will be no one out there with L-plates !!:D