FRIACO - from www.comreg.ie today

pork99

It cant justifiably be introduced with a wholesale price of 60 euro cus its way to close to the wholesale price of adsl.

ok E60 pm is probably a bit alarmist

however what we NEED is flat rate priced at no more than E20 pm

will we see that? I hope we will, I just have a gut feeling that eircom will w^nk all over us yet again

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by pork99


however what we NEED is flat rate priced at no more than E20 pm

will we see that? I hope we will, I just have a gut feeling that eircom will w^nk all over us yet again

Same feeling here.
Ireland has so much catching up to do with Internet take-up. If our ComReg should sanction anything leading to a consumer price above 20 euros, we will really have to turn up the heat on them.

Peter

BoneCollector

will we see that? I hope we will, I just have a gut feeling that eircom will w^nk all over us yet again

You also got to realise that its also down to third parties that are also battling for a reasonable wholesale rate too. so its just as much there responsibilty to argue for the lowest wholesale rate too! :cool:

SkepticOne

As far as pricing is concerned, it is most likely to be done on a per-port basis with various options depending on where the ISP interconnects.

JohnK

sounds good

-ADREN-

Ok Really stupid question, and maybe it was answered allready back with in all that excitement.. but ehh

Why are we all so happy :D:D

Can someone just plainly tell me whats just after happening..


Is it that it could it be 20euros a month for isdn and no cost per minute? Or whats the hole happy thing about

SkepticOne

Originally posted by -ADREN-
Can someone just plainly tell me whats just after happening..

It is not flat-rate in itself, but it is generally understood that flat-rate (56k or ISDN) can't happen without the appropriate deal from the incumbent. Nor does FRIACO guarantee flat-rate - this depends on there being a competitive ISP market and also the wholesale rate must be such that it allows attractive flat-rate products. It could still all go wrong if the wholesale price is too high. It should therefore be regarded as a milestone on the way to flat-rate. Most people, though, will only be happy when actual flat-rate products are being advertised. ISDN should be the same price as dial-up in the eventual services, though this will be down to the ISP. The same wholesale rate will be charged for both.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Nemesis

Last July I gave up.
No flat rate internet access main reason.
I had ISDN which I found fine for gaming etc...It was the horrible phone bills I had...250 a month phone bill.
I'd live with ISDN and flat rate....
I sold my PC for 900 Euros..(great deal...for me.:)..)...Rang Eircom and got my ISDN removed...found my Golf clubs but alas not my swing and totally ..(tried to) forget about online fun.
Then I decided to change my phone Company and left Eircom.
So Eircom rings and asks me why I left...and didnt I realise eircom were cheaper than the company I was currently with!.
So I told the girl the reason I left Eircom..and that I didnt care if they were cheaper...and asked her to make sure the reason I gave was recorded.
Nemesis offline campaign might soon be coming to an end.
And spending 5 months offline..selling my pc has now got me a nice little nestegg of 1500 euros to go towards my new Alienware pc.;)
Nemesis.

Ruu_Old

Welcome back Nemesis couldnt stay away could ya i had given up last year too until i found help here

Dangger

Found this on the EsatBT site whilst googling for something completely different. It's an old press release but it outlines the potential retail price for FRIACO, and is from EsatBT themselves. It may be an interesting footnote for this thread.

Esat BT unveils plan to introduce Flat Rate Internet Access to Irish consumers early next year

Esat BT today announced that it intends to introduce Flat Rate Internet Access (FRIACO) to Irish consumers from early 2003, subject to the successful conclusion of negotiations with eircom, and the approval of the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation (ODTR).

The key elements of the plan are as follows:

Esat BT intends to launch its Flat Rate Internet Access service early in 2003
The new service will provide un-metered access to the Internet for consumers
Esat BT is hoping to provide the service for a monthly charge of €25-€35, which is comparable to rates in the UK, though this is subject to eircom's wholesale price

Bill Murphy, Chief Executive Officer of Esat BT said that the introduction of Flat Rate Internet Access was long overdue. "The message we have been getting loud and clear from industry groups, State agencies, businesses and consumer lobbying groups is that Flat Rate Internet Access is urgently required. This is the key enabler in stimulating Internet usage in Ireland, and to stop us falling further behind our neighbours in Western Europe."


He said that the Internet statistics for July reported by the Nielsen/NetRatings service backed up the Esat BT case. "Internet penetration in Ireland is lagging well behind at just 34% - the third lowest in Europe. The average time spent online by Irish Internet users is less than four hours per month, well below the European average. What's even more worrying is that less than half the people with Internet access from their homes actually use it when at home."


Mr. Murphy contrasted Ireland's position with that of the UK, where Flat Rate Internet Access was launched in 2000. "Home Internet penetration has now reached 50% and is still growing, with 10 million UK homes having Internet access. The average time spent online per month is close to seven hours - almost double the Irish rate."


Mr. Murphy said that Esat BT was now having constructive discussions with eircom in relation to the provision of wholesale Flat Rate Internet Access, and had also kept the ODTR and the Government fully informed of its plans to introduce the service.


"Based on our discussions with eircom to date, we are confident that we can launch our Flat Rate Internet Access service early next year. We are equally determined that the price must be right to ensure that we have a product and service that will be attractive to consumers. To that end, we believe an approximate price of €25-35 per month is both fair and appropriate. However, that is dependent on the level of eircom's wholesale price".


Mr. Murphy said that the current system of charging for Internet access had clearly not worked and while the rollout of broadband would help the situation in the longer term, it would be many years before Irish consumers had full access to it.


"Flat Rate Internet Access is a key migration path to broadband. As long as the meter is ticking, users will limit their time on-line, thus restricting their ability to fully exploit and enjoy what the Internet can deliver. Eliminate that cost uncertainty, and the model changes fundamentally. Users will 'linger on-line' and be more amenable to surfing, shopping, reading, researching etc. but not until we deal with the cost issue"

SkepticOne

Also, UTVi have said that lack of FRIACO was preventing them from offering a true flat-rate product:

Originally posted by Martin-UTVi
We still do not have access to a proper FRIACO modeled product in the ROI, so that is why this "limit" is in place. Obviously we'd love to have no limit (although this in itself is impractical as most UK ISP's implement some sort of profligate use clause), but I think we'd be waiting too long on Eircom to implement 1892/1893 models for us to take advantage of :-(

Originally posted by Martin-UTVi
We will be constantly looking at this limit over the course of time. Until we have a FRIACO product/model available from Eircom we have to implement some sort of threshold as we're being billed for every minute you use. We could offer 24/7 access at €400 per month.....but obviously nobodies going to go for that

These are from this thread

OHP

The bubble has not quite yet burst. This is only a pinhole. Dont rejoice just yet untill you see what Should Follow

OHP

Cork

ComReg considers the availability of a FRIACO product will help stimulate competition, encourage economic efficiency and provide benefit to end users. ComReg believes that the requesting OLOs are reliant on eircom to provide wholesale flat rate interconnection if they are to offer a similar product at retail level.

I was talking to a UTV guy a few months ago - he gave me the whole chapter & verse of UTV trying to get FAIRCO.


I think things are beginning to move.

What timescale do you envisage?

Ruu_Old

when Comreg has done their part...its up the ISPs right? so is there much work for the ISPs to make changes to implement flat rate into their systems?

spongebob

expect nothing concrete before easter IMO.

the ISP's will launch immediately. The unholy triumvarate of the Regulator , The Rat, and the fellas with Rats on their Heads will need a day out in court first

M

Cork

But do you think that it will all end up in court?

Will Eircom accept the Comregs decision?

I think that the tide is turning aganist THE MOUSE on this issue. I feel they are big differences between the current minister and the previous incumbant. I think that Comreg is an improvement on the ODTR.

But - Court Action? Is that like grasping at straws at this stage?

lampsie

Well, far as I can see, this can go one of two ways...

#Scenario 1

Eircom Board Rat #1: "Hmm, looks like the games up lads"
Eircom Board Rat #2: "Well look, I reckon we charge into this, get a product out that beats the competition " <everyone laughs> "..ah hah hah, I know...But anywho, yep, get a product out that pisses over everyone, and gets the sheep to sign up in their droves, tinking Eircom is fabulous as always, agreed?"

Chorus of Rats: "Agreed!!"




#Scenario 2

Eircom Board Rat #1: "Hmm, looks like the games up lads"
Eircom Board Rat #3 (legal department): "Not so fast..."


- lampsie.

MDR

I would be very suprised if we didn't see a high court action ...
these guys aren't gonna give up their minute charging without a fight, it means too much money to them.

Ruu_Old

i dont think we'll see any high court action, they've been there done that, time and time again, i think we might see a pathetic attempt at a flat rate product resulting in Eircom being pummelled by the other ISP's

Dustaz

I have no idea whether it will go to the high court, but i would imagine its highly likely that they will challenge any wholesale price set by the regulator.

spongebob

OK

It costs about €50,000 a day in the High Court

Thats €1,000,000 a month (assuming 20 legal days in a month)

They make far more than that a month on the per second billing with no discount schemes.

Therefore the High Court is Very Good Business for Eircom. Don't make the mistake of thinking that they care about their customers or ...God Help Us....the National Interest.

M

parasite

on what grounds could they fight... ? doesn't ahern have european and irish law on his side

Ruu_Old

on what grounds could they fight... ? doesn't ahern have european and irish law on his side

Eircom always find legal loopholes to jump thru :mad:

Tellox

isnt the deadline for making the wholesale product jan 1st..therfore 20mins..or is it after that? sorry if I'm mistaken, but if its 20mins, they dont have much time to organise a legal case..

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Tizlox
isnt the deadline for making the wholesale product jan 1st..therfore 20mins..or is it after that? sorry if I'm mistaken, but if its 20mins, they dont have much time to organise a legal case..

Well, from the ComReg document:

Stage 1- July-Dec

Industry request/SOR July

Bilateral discussions by industry July-Nov

Regulator considers talks unlikely to adequately
Progress matter, sets up forum to complete
Product description Nov
Information Notice on progress Dec

Stage 2-Next steps-Completion of product process and pricing for the product-Jan -Feb. 2003

Freezing of product description.

Setting of terms and conditions for access to the product.

Setting pricing for the wholesale product

Stage 3- Development and roll-out of a retail offering

Development of retail product/pricing by operators

Ordering and delivery of capacity from eircom

Launch of retail product

It would appear that some time between now and the end of February, the price will be set for FRIACO. After that, Eircom are free to dispute it. What is not clear at this stage is how the price will be set. Will cost-orientation be imposed on Eircom immediately or will Eircom propose inflated proposed rates before being forced into cost orientated rates by ComReg? Also, as eircomtribunal mentioned, will the cost-orientation be done on the basis of an "efficient european operator" or will the Eircom bloat (and the costs associated with dealing with it) be taken into account?

Serbian

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Well, from the ComReg document:It would appear that some time between now and the end of February, the price will be set for FRIACO. After that, Eircom are free to dispute it. What is not clear at this stage is how the price will be set. Will cost-orientation be imposed on Eircom immediately or will Eircom propose inflated proposed rates before being forced into cost orientated rates by ComReg? Also, as eircomtribunal mentioned, will the cost-orientation be done on the basis of an "efficient european operator" or will the Eircom bloat (and the costs associated with dealing with it) be taken into account?

What is also not clear is the time frame of Stage 3. Presumably this is subject to the resolution of any objections that Eircom may (will) have. Then the matter arises, how long will it take ComReg or whoever to deal with this dispute?

It may be a while yet before we see FRIACO, but at least we'll get to see it at all

Peter

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Serbian
What is also not clear is the time frame of Stage 3. Presumably this is subject to the resolution of any objections that Eircom may (will) have. Then the matter arises, how long will it take ComReg or whoever to deal with this dispute?

Although state 3 (retail) is what most people here will be interested in, it depends totally on what happens in stage 2. Most importantly, the wholesale FRIACO rate must be such that a retail flat-rate offering is possible. If it is too high, then you will not get flat-rate but rather some sort of pre-paid deal like the current UTV offering. Flat-rate only makes sense if it appeals to all internet users. Otherwise, only the heavy users will be attracted towards it and these users will hog the limited resources available to ISPs.

In this instance, some sort of discount scheme might be possible, but flat-rate is out the window.

For a successful flat-rate service, people need to be attracted towards the retail offering not because they will save a huge amount of money, but because of the fixed nature of the monthly fee.

Market research conducted by MRBI on behalf of the ODTR indicates that there is a large number of people in Ireland (including those not currently using the internet) who would be attracted to a flat-rate service provided the monthly fee is low.

Xian

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Will cost-orientation be imposed on Eircom immediately or will Eircom propose inflated proposed rates before being forced into cost orientated rates by ComReg? Also, as eircomtribunal mentioned, will the cost-orientation be done on the basis of an "efficient european operator" or will the Eircom bloat (and the costs associated with dealing with it) be taken into account?

At this stage it is worth recalling the meeting with John Doherty of April 9 which would seem to indicate that cost-orientation applies immediately on the introduction of the service:

We also put forward the argument that the current practice of charging ISPs for their wholesale interconnect of Internet calls on a per-minute basis was not cost orientated, and that the regulator could therefore direct Eircom to modify their RIO to provide a capacity-based (FRIACO) product instead.

Although there was some sympathy for this case, the ODTR pointed out that they do ensure wholesale product offerings are priced according to cost, and moreover must be comparable to the costs of an efficient operator, but that in the absence of a FRIACO style product existing, there was nothing for them to regulate.

spongebob

the USO consultation timetable (ends mid feb)

anybody notice?