PEP and PIP - AIB ARK LIFE

hamster

Hi Guys.

I'd like a few comparsions or similar experiences if possible. In essense I'd like to know if anyone had any decent return from a PEP or PIP (or any other managed funds/saving) or did anyone actually have the discipline to pay in for at least 5 years+ and not touch it and let it grow?

Well's for who's interested here my story. * See note below

I opened an ARK LIFE PEP in june 1999. I put in 6000 Euro. Now, as of today, it's worth 3716.19. This was a lump sum to start off. It's charges per year were 1.5%. When this was invested I was hit by 5% bid/offer spread entry charges. ** At the moment a total paper fall of 38%.

Also from that point of time, I have been putting in 254 Euro per month (increased by 5% per year - ie now putting in 294/month 3.5 years later). The sum put in was 11,370.84 Euro. This is now worth 8619.89 Euro. This is thanks to the markets (accepted), but also to 1.5% annual charge (on entire fund), 5% bid/offer spread on each monthly investment. But notice this did better as each monthly investment bought more units and had less to fall.
Hence now, this section a smaller total paper fall of 24%. Here the charges are more visible.

I plan to keep paying in until the end of the year (4.5 Years) and leave it sit for another 5 years so it can now actually grow.

I'd love to hear any similar stories or differences. I also invest in single shares but more is risky since you really need to buy at least 10 shares or so (diversification) and probably 4000 Euro of each otherwise stamp duty and broker charges become a large % charge of the share purchase. Hence unit funds like the above are a necessary evil unless you got 20K or more to invest.

Index Tracker funds are now becoming attractive as all major indices have fallen 30-40% and while they could (and probably will) fall another 10-20% I still expect these to do well in the long run and out-perform "managed" funds. Like PEP/PIPs they are easy to get into with small amounts.


* It was a hostile enviornment for the last 3 years, but hey... we were paying these guys to manage a fund, not to just follow an index downwards.... why "manage" at all? Seems to better to follow a simple index tracker over the long run.

** Now thankfully, nowadays you tend to get a better entry deal since the SSIA schemes have shaken up the life insurance market a bit.

halkar

Same happened to me with Pip or Pep (I am still confused about them :rolleyes: ) I wasn't putting much into it but at the time about 4 years ago they sound good on the paper. This summer when I got my statement for the year I saw that it was actually loosing money so I cashed in and had a nice holiday with it
Right now it doesn't look like a good option on investing anything unless you are already in SSIA. I am not sure if there are any good investment options out there but some mates of mine bought apartments abroad and those doubled their value in a year :rolleyes:

So me starts filling my piggy bank

spongebob

you would have made more in the Post Office than with a BOI PIP opened in 1998 despite the fact that the feckin thing was supposed to be invested in property as well as stocks.

Useless crud these PIPs, the SSIA is the only decent investment around , I suggest you pump it to the max.

M

hamster

Yeah I'd agree that you would have made more that way for the last 3 years. But the next 3 years have a greater probability that returns will be greater.

With the ECB rate down to 2.75% leaving money in the bank is no good for the medium/long term investor as we'll have 6% inflation next year. That -5% return while the banks will cream a big profit by lending the same money to the neighbour at 8-16%.

You really need to latch onto something linked to at least inflation. ie the economy, businesses (shares) or property. I guess that the advantage of property is eroded somewhat as this has already grown 120% or greater in the last 4-5 years alone. But will in the very long run will continue historical trends.

By entering shares, especially those that pay good fat dividends, you will beat even lowly deposits! BOI, AIB or Kerry shares are a good example of this.

I have maxxed the SSIA (equity) and by only putting in 254 per month you will not have been hit as bad by equities so far. That is because the fall happened very sharply in June/July and really have stayed down. This can be a good thing if you want to buy units month by month at a depressed price. Nothing worse that buying units while they are rising sharply as the gain to be made is minimized.

But back to the point... Anyone else who invested in PEP/PIPs over the last 5+ years or so?

hamster

Just to mention that I forgot to point out is that the above Ark Life fund was set up in June 1999 so this is not a Gross rollup fund, ie it is net in that any profit is immediately tax year after year rather than when I exit the fund. So, if you had a PEP fund before/after 2000 I'd be interested how it's going.

nahdoic

Originally posted by halkar

Right now it doesn't look like a good option on investing anything unless you are already in SSIA.

If you're looking for a long term investment, invest in forestry.

- Eco-friendly
- Tax-free
- Government grants
- Promotes employment in rural areas
- Excellent returns

Don't know much about it myself, but if I had some money to invest I would be seriously looking into it.

www.ireland-forestry.com

www.ireland-forestry.com/whyinvest.htm

RainyDay

I have many reservations about the Forestry Investment funds. See this thread from askaboutmoney.com for full details, but in summary;

- The much-advertised rates of return of 9.6% is PROJECTED, i.e. not guaranteed
- The forests they set-up are actually not very eco-friendly, they are purely commercial and don't use native Irish trees.
- There is no open market in the shares, so it's impossible to get information on the success (or otherwise) of previous rounds of this investments.
- The directors of the funds are also directors of the company which maintains the forests - The maintainence company gets significant cash out of the funds - Co-incidence?

hamster

I'm not sure if this is correct but the Government has stopped people with spare land getting grants for forestry. I'm not sure about companies that buy land are affected but I'm sure the growth projected takes these grants into account? Afaik, existing owners aren't affected.

Dr_Teeth

hmm, I started a PEP thingy in '98 and paid into it for about a year I think (I had about 2000 in the account). I saw that they'd lost me money at that stage, said 'screw u guys' and used the money to buy a PC.

Teeth.

At this stage, you woulkd want to be mad imho, thinking of investing in a pip or pep or any market related product, unless your original investment is guaranteed.
It's next to difficult to find those kind of products at the moment, as afaik, what the companies do is say take in a lot of money, put 80% of it on deposit(where they used to up untill recently, be able to get 4% or more on that) and then put the rest into equities, property etc.

They are screwed on all quarters now.

For the record, I have been, running my own business( :eek: ) since I was 21, thats 10 years ago now, and as part of tax effecient money management, I had a pension fund started back then, with Irish life , now ILP.
3 years ago it was up about 50% in value, and as of last week it was worth only slightly less than I put into it.
It's a fairly typical example of, the hit , the recent down turn has had on these things.

To my mind , in the current climate, you have to "temporally" forget inflation and put any savings on deposit initially.
Then examine any products that come available, or better still, invest your savings in bricks and mortar.
The best way to do that, if, you cannot qualify for a mortgage, yourself, is to get a trusted friend to buy half the house with you or a third or what ever, but make sure, you have a good legal agreement.
Incidentally, if you are paying interest on an overdraft or credit card, at rates of 9% or more Clear them first.
Theres no sense, in getting a 5 or 6 % return on an investment product and paying the Banks, your profit in interest charged ion other accounts.

mm

RainyDay

At this stage, you woulkd want to be mad imho, thinking of investing in a pip or pep or any market related product, unless your original investment is guaranteed.
It's next to difficult to find those kind of products at the moment, as afaik, what the companies do is say take in a lot of money, put 80% of it on deposit(where they used to up untill recently, be able to get 4% or more on that) and then put the rest into equities, property etc.

There are loads of these products around - just listen out for the ad's for 'tracker bonds' on the radio or in the papers. However, I wouldn't touch them with a 40 ft barge pole.

The price you pay for the capital guarantee is too steep, and you will lose a lot of any upswing in the equity markets to pay for this guarantee. I predict the next 'misselling' scandal in a few years time when the markets have recovered and all the suckers in tracker bonds are just getting their own money back & very little else on top.

If you're prepared to risk your money, put it into a low-fees index tracking fund (not a tracker bond) like Quinn Life. If you're not prepare to risk it, leave it on deposit and let inflation eat away at it each year.

*cough* those tracker bonds are not being advertised, as much now, you have to look for them, agreed , theres loads, that you will find, and agreed, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

But surely the same,applies to Index, ie FTSE, ISEQ or other related bonds, they are down , more so than up, lately.

Personally I'd rather look for , one or two percent and keep lodging in the short term if possible, untill I had enough to invest in property on my own or with others.
A Bank may pay you very little interest, but at least, they do not dip into your deposit account fund, with charges, or in the present climate, invest it away willy nilly in a range of shares that are on a downward slide.

Being a little risk averse at the moment, is no harm imho.

If you're not prepare to risk it, leave it on deposit and let inflation eat away at it each year.

Well, that wouldn't be good advice, if at any stage in the near future, you wanted to buy a house, assuming it takes a minimum of 3-5 years to get any return from equity market related investments, and up to ten years realistically if it's a fund with some property in the portfolio.
But if , you don't need the money, or don't want to buy a house in the near future, yeah, I'd give, low cost bonds some thought,but not untill, the markets start to rise mind,
mm

RainyDay

Property isn't as simple or foolproof an investment as many people make out. In the long term, returns on property are slightly below returns in the equity market, based on the last figures I saw from the Irish Society of Actuaries.

Property has a lot of disadvantages over share investments. There are very high transaction costs involved in buying or selling property (up to 12% including stamp duty). Property is illiquid, i.e. if you own a €200k house and you need €10k cash, you have to see your own house. If you own a €200k share portfolio and you need €10k, you can sell 5% of your shares. Property investments are time-consuming - e.g. advertising, interviewing tenants, maintaining property, responding to emergency calls for flooding or power outages etc.

Also, most people largest single asset is their house. If they then purchase further property, they aren't following the golden rule of successful investment - diversify. Their future financial wealth is totally dependent on the property market. However, if they were to invest in shares instead, they avoid having all their eggs in one basket.

The major advantage of property investment is the willingness of the banks to lend - so you can invest someone else's money!

See Guide to Savings & Investment - Residential Property for more details.

We will have to agree to disagree, regarding property.
Certainly, in the last ten years it would have been the way to go.
But this is all subjective also as equities, also did very well untill recently when, they caused a lot of people to lose their shirt.

But then if someone is renting your house and paying half your mortgage for you, then equities cant match that in my opinion, they are too uncertain.
Sure a house can lose it's value, at times too byt it wont dissapear like a company can in terms of value eg Elan, the fund managers favourite in recent years for instance
mm

RainyDay

Hi Man - I wasn't stating my opinions - These are just the simple facts. If you compare the returns of equity s vs property over the last 5-30 years, equities beat property by 2-5% p.a. return, depending on the period chosen. [Source: 1996 paper of Society of Actuaries in Ireland, updated by BIAM in 2001]. See attached spreadsheet for full details.


Years Property Equities
30 16.10% 17.80%
25 16.30% 19.00%
20 13.70% 18.50%
15 15.60% 17.70%
10 16.60% 19.70%
5 26.60% 22.80%


Scaremongering about Elan/Enron/Worldcom doesn't changes the facts. These shares would form a very small part of a well-diversified portfolio of shares, so the risk of being 'wiped out' on an equity investment is quite small, really. Even in the difficult markets of the last 2-3 years, well managed funds are down 20% to 30% - not wiped out.

Note that I'd certainly recommend that you should buy your home at the earliest opportunity, but that's about somewhere to live, not about investing. If you're looking for an investment, think long & hard before you get into residential property.

If you've got any data to back up your views, I'd be very interested in seeing this.

hamster

Dr_Teeth, RainDay & Man,

Like I said earlier in the thread I started my PEP around the same time as you Man. I invested a lump at the start. This is down a lot. Likewise I'm putting away a small monthly amount too for last 40 months. This is also down but not as much. The reason being that each month now buys far more units for the same amount of money spent, say last July. I'm saying that the downturn is potentially good value once stocks start growing again. So any investments made now have a greater chance of getting a decent return over the long run. I don't know when equities will start growing again but I do believe that they will do as well as property in the run. I don't know WHEN equities come back but I do believe they will.

A good (morbid) sign when to invest is when you look at the 5 year averages (for stocks/properties) and start seeing them in negative territory: eg -7% after 5 years. I would actually feel more nervous if shares were up 120% in 5 years... I'd have missed the boat... or they be just catching up... like property has in the last 5 years. Low interest rates will help to keep the Property fire ablaze for sometime yet but with inflation staying stubbornly high with German like interest rates... it's getting a bit close.

I'd agree with Man that sometimes shares can be risky that they could disappear (eg Elan) but if you spread your xx,xxx Euro (over 20 shares) then only a section disappears at worst. In downturns like this, I'd go for Shares that pay a fat dividend twice yearly... these are actually starting to beat deposit interest rates!

If you can't diversify then go for a unit-linked fund or a simple tracker (not the 80% cash - 20% shares types!) like Quinn Life as they just follow the relevant index (no fund manager inteference, relative transparency, low cost). This will beat any fund manager over the long run and you don't pay any to under-perform the average!

Myself personally, the Ark Life investment return is poor as it mirrors conditions but I wouldn't pull out now as the pain part is mostly phased out and the upside is potentially greater (see! I'm not making cast-iron predictions ). I'd hate to consolidate those losses. Fund Managers are hurting too! Yes, the 1.5% charge on the entire fund per year is not worth so much to them and could work out better in the long run as you buy cheaper units too.

Originally posted by RainyDay
Hi Man - I wasn't stating my opinions - These are just the simple facts. If you compare the returns of equity s vs property over the last 5-30 years, equities beat property by 2-5% p.a. return, depending on the period chosen. [Source: 1996 paper of Society of Actuaries in Ireland, updated by BIAM in 2001]. See attached spreadsheet for full details.


Years Property Equities
30 16.10% 17.80%
25 16.30% 19.00%
20 13.70% 18.50%
15 15.60% 17.70%
10 16.60% 19.70%
5 26.60% 22.80%


Scaremongering about Elan/Enron/Worldcom doesn't changes the facts. These shares would form a very small part of a well-diversified portfolio of shares, so the risk of being 'wiped out' on an equity investment is quite small, really. Even in the difficult markets of the last 2-3 years, well managed funds are down 20% to 30% - not wiped out.

Note that I'd certainly recommend that you should buy your home at the earliest opportunity, but that's about somewhere to live, not about investing. If you're looking for an investment, think long & hard before you get into residential property.

If you've got any data to back up your views, I'd be very interested in seeing this.

You are talking there about the rise in value in property, vs the rise in value in shares over time and I am not disputing this.

The point I was making above was that, if you are renting a property, on which you have a mortgage, and that rent is paying at least half of your mortgage, then you are on a winner, in that someone else, is paying for half your house and you are gaining over time if property prices are rising.

Therefore, when property is purchased with rental in mind, ( and people who purchase second homes usually rent them! ) Equities are not as good an investment.

I am not scaremongering regarding equities, at all actually, just echoe-ing what hamster complained of at the start of this thread.
Fact of the matter is, if particular, shares in portfolios weren't falling, then neither would the value of the pip's and Equity SSIA's etc.
It's a cyclical thing and if some way could be devised that I can rent out my portfolio, with someone paying half the cost of it , ( without wanting half the returns , unlike my tennants, who wont take half my house for the rent they pay ) and thereby cushioning me from low or negative returns, I would happily be less risk averse.
mm

RainyDay

Hi Man

You are talking there about the rise in value in property, vs the rise in value in shares over time and I am not disputing this.

No - I'm not! The figures quoted refer to the total return (including capital gains/rise in values, income from dividends or rent, tax reliefs etc). You may not like what the numbers are telling you, but the fact remains that the overall returns on equity investments have historically beaten property investments .


Hi Hamster - To get back to your original question, your strategy sounds sensible to me. However, I'd wonder about the high fees (e.g. 5% bid/offer spread) that you're paying with AIB. Would you consider stopping further payments to AIB now & switching your remaining payments to a low charging fund manager (like EBS or Quinn Life)?

Regards - RainyDay

Hi Rainyday,
The following is taken from:
A fairly Reputable company's website.
http://www.finfacts.ie/fincentre/fincentre.htm

Real Investment Returns (%p.a.)

Last 2001 10 years 20 years 50 years 102 years*
Equities -13.8 8.6 10.9 7.5 5.3
Gilts 0.6 8.0 8.2 1.6 1.1
Corporate Bonds 6.0 9.6
Index-Linked -1.6 5.9
Cash 4.8 4.0 4.9 1.7 1.0

* entire sample

The highest return for equities on their figures, over 20 years is less than 11%-Are they wrong?

Now, if you go talk to real people who have bought second houses over the last 20 years, they will tell you that their investment has grown by 50 to 100% in value over that time, with the tennants more than making up for inflation.

Take a house in Clonskeagh, for instance(Roebuck) which you could have bought in the late 1980's for £150,000, that has certainly doubled in value to date, and inflation for at least 7 - 10 of those years was in low single digits.
Add in the fact that , the tennants paid a lot of the mortgage, and I do not see where in the real world a growth rate of 14% comes from?

Having said that, I'm not convinced that equities are a bad thing, there is no doubt, that with the exception of the current downturn a lot of speculative gain can be made from them.I'm just a diehard supporter of putting the other side of the story, for a little balance,a devils advocate so to speak.

Perhaps, the fact that I and many that I know have dipped into both markets and have the benefit of comparison, colours my attitude.It's all about what you have /or will have in your pocket at the end of the day, and luckilly, property has been good.

mm

spongebob

Originally posted by hamster
Dr_Teeth, RainDay & Man,

I'm saying that the downturn is potentially good value once stocks start growing again.

I thought that property was part of the PeP and PiP mix. The downside risk is that stocks will (probably in my opinion) start to grow again this year but your gains may be offset by losses on the property units in the Pip and PeP mix.........

There is no fund management discount for crap performance either !

M

RainyDay

Hi Man

They're not wrong, but they are using different measurement criteria. They are excluding inflation & they relate to UK, whereas the figures I quoted were for the Irish market.

The most recent study of equity returns (excluding inflation) compared with other investments, relates to the U.K.

I'd imagine that the exclusion of inflation accounts for most of the difference between my figures & yours. As they don't present any figures for property measured on that basis, it doesn't really add anything to this discussion.

I see your house in Clonskeagh & I raise you Qualcomm shares, which went from $8 to $150 (split adjusted) over just 12 months in 1999, i.e. growth of over 1800%. A little piece of that in your portfolio and the brains to sell at the right time, and you'll be laughing all the way to the bank while the landlords fix the plumbing in the upstairs loo again.

As they don't present any figures for property measured on that basis, it doesn't really add anything to this discussion.

Convenient reply, if you want to pretend that property prices did not double in the last 14 years, I can give you examples of areas where, they trebled in an even shorter period if you like.

I see your house in Clonskeagh & I raise you Qualcomm shares, which went from $8 to $150 (split adjusted) over just 12 months in 1999, i.e. growth of over 1800%. A little piece of that in your portfolio and the brains to sell at the right time, and you'll be laughing all the way to the bank while the landlords fix the plumbing in the upstairs loo again.

I did not know we were playing poker here:D I am fairly risk averse now,so I avoid that game.
Fair enough, you can find shares that gain a phenominal 1800%, but clearly, most owners of managed portfolio's aren't benefiting from their existance.
You would want to be very shrewd, tbh, to know/predict if a company is going to do that, it's certainly not within the realm of the ordinary saver.
To be frank, over the last ten years, I have subscribed to many investment products, with disappointing gains, which are currently losses.
Thats been the experience of many in the same time-frame, despite being promised the sun, moon and stars by various brokers.
The plumbing's, fine in my house, thank you, and indeed, I've had good tennants. My mortgage has only another seven years to run and the way things stand at the minute, it would have been closer to being paid off, if I had diverted, various pip/pep/pension payments towards it.
mm

hamster

Hi Hamster - To get back to your original question, your strategy sounds sensible to me. However, I'd wonder about the high fees (e.g. 5% bid/offer spread) that you're paying with AIB. Would you consider stopping further payments to AIB now & switching your remaining payments to a low charging fund manager (like EBS or Quinn Life)?


Hi RainyDay,

I'm planning to stop contributing to the Ark Life Pep at month 50 (another 2 months to go!) and leave it sit to grow relatively unmolested (barring the 1.5% charge) for 5-10 years now the 5% barrier has been paid. I'll agree that the charges were high but the choice wasn't the greatest then (still really isn't). Underperforming Fund Managers need re-assurance didn't you know? :rolleyes:

I already put several lump sums into Quinn Life (at relatively higher unit values last year) and have my SSIA with EBS. I'll probably switch the monthly drip feed to Quinn Life once I stop with Ark Life.



I thought that property was part of the PeP and PiP mix. The downside risk is that stocks will (probably in my opinion) start to grow again this year but your gains may be offset by losses on the property units in the Pip and PeP mix.........

There is no fund management discount for crap performance either !

Hi Muck,

Yes, the Pep is supposed to have "some properties and gilts" but is dominated by 70%+ equites (rightly in the long run). Although interestingly enough when Elan and AIB sunk on the last year in Feburary... Ark Life were hit rather badly. You could see it on the weekly newspapers compared to other unit-linked funds as AIB had a relatively large holding of Elan compared to it's competitors
like New Ireland Evergreen for example. Again it's an example in this case that unit-linked funds almost do as bad as free fall trackers in a downturn and I guess they will also struggle to come back up as quick as one.

The Iseq was dicey to track when one share (Elan) represented 25% of the index. Here simple trackers really such have some limit to protect themselves from such extremes.

If you're interested muck... see the attached .jpg which shows how the pep did from apr '00 week by week. Note: see the one week dive in graph: 22/02/03 due to Elan/AIB ... half of 11th sep '01 !).

RainyDay

if you want to pretend that property prices did not double in the last 14 years, I can give you examples of areas where, they trebled in an even shorter period if you like.

I never said anything about what property prices did or didn't do - I showed you the numbers from a credible source, which you seem to want to ignore. My key point was that by comparing property to equities, in general, equities have beaten property by a couple of percentage points over the last 30 years. You seem to want to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich - which is fine by me - but let's not mislead other readers on the facts.

To be frank, over the last ten years, I have subscribed to many investment products, with disappointing gains, which are currently losses.

So the markets are low today. If we revisit this thread in 18 months time and the markets have picked up again and your equity investments are showing gains, will you admit that you were wrong? What kinds of fees did you pay on these investments? It may well be that your losses were due to choice of poor performing, high charging fund managers, rather than losses in the markets themselves.

Yes - property prices have shown phenomal growth, and indeed my own house has trebled in value in approx 8 years. But you're kidding yourself when you talk about your tenant paying half your mortgage. This isn't to your benefit - it's to the benefit of your bank. A large part of your rental income/mortgage repayments are made up of interest, which doesn't do you any good at all. If you want to compare investments, compare your net income (e.g. rental less interest & other costs), not gross.

Originally posted by RainyDay
[BYes - property prices have shown phenomal growth, and indeed my own house has trebled in value in approx 8 years. But you're kidding yourself when you talk about your tenant paying half your mortgage. This isn't to your benefit - it's to the benefit of your bank. A large part of your rental income/mortgage repayments are made up of interest, which doesn't do you any good at all. If you want to compare investments, compare your net income (e.g. rental less interest & other costs), not gross. [/B]

how can you say it is only to the Banks benefit, and not to mine?? Fact is I am getting the house, for half price, getting some mortgage relief on it, and I get all the proceeds when it is sold! If that is double or treble, what the original mortgage was, and at home loan rates of less than 6%, then It's a very safe and worthwhile investment.

I never said anything about what property prices did or didn't do - I showed you the numbers from a credible source, which you seem to want to ignore. My key point was that by comparing property to equities, in general, equities have beaten property by a couple of percentage points over the last 30 years. You seem to want to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich - which is fine by me - but let's not mislead other readers on the facts.

Well I threw up an example from the real world of what house prices have done recently, and so have you in your last post!
You've said now that, your own house has trebled in value in 8 years, in a time when inflation was by and large less than 5%.
Thats a phenominal return and unmatched by any equity fund I've seen.
It may well have been matched by the odd shrewd invester,or even bettered, but as I said above, the extreme example, you quoted with 1800% growth is not typical of what the ordinary saver can do.
House prices are transparent, you at least, know that if you have one rented, that, you have some security.
whereas purchasing stocks are risky, but it is a fair point that risk can be rewarded as well as penalised.

Somebody somewhere once said that the written word says a lot less than the spoken word, and to be honest the only point I want to make here is that,property is a safe, secure investment.
At no point that I can remember in the last 15 years has property in Ireland ever fallen by 20-30% two years in a row.
And it's possible to get someone else to pay half the cost of it for you-even tax treatment of private pensions doesn't match that.

The people I feel sorry for really are those that were hood winked by various institutions into taking out euity linked SSIA's, when it was clear that the government would only be putting in their contribution for 5 years.It wasn't explained to those people, that 5 years is too short and that there was a risk that they could take a big hit.

RainyDay

OK - I give up now. I'm clearly hammering my head against a brick wall, so I'm not going to keep trying.

Simple facts are;

- property is not as 'safe' an investment as you make out.
- I've shown credible numbers from a credible source showing that equity investments beat property investments in the long run - You've shown no credible data to counter this.
- anyone who took out an equity-based SSIA had a specific warning on the application form that it was a long-term investment (5+ years). Anyone who ignored this warning and took out an equity-based SSIA without being prepared for short/medium term losses wasn't hoodwinked - they were stupid or greedy.

Hmmm, you took on the job of trying to convince me, that Equity, is a better investment, than property, and that you haven't done.
There's no way I'm going to convince you, that property is better either.
At the same time, I'm not saying,equities cannot beat property investment.

Both you and I gave examples in the real world of phenominal growth in property prices in recent years that bear, no relation to the industry figures you originally quoted.
What is in your pocket to be honest is what counts at the end of the day.

You have in my opinion made some very valid points.
But my reasoning here is really to point out that, in a discussion on investment there shouldn't be blanket dismissal of property in favour of equities or vice versa.

Obviously, in the environment of this thread, when there are two very opposing sides, both will pluck examples to suit their case.

Can we agree to disagree now and shake hands?
mm

RainyDay

Hmmm, you took on the job of trying to convince me, that Equity, is a better investment, than property, and that you haven't done.

Well, not really - I didn't take on the job of convincing anybody of anything. I simply wanted to point out some facts, and let people make own decisions from there. In particular, I wanted to point out that the irrational Irish attachment to property investments isn't backed up by data. It also amazes me that most people run away from equity investments when the market is low (i.e the best time to buy) and follow the lemmings into equity investments when the market is high (i.e. the worst time to buy).

But yes, clearly we disagree - so let's leave it at that. Best of luck with ALL your investments.

Thanks Rainy

I agree with you when you say :

It also amazes me that most people run away from equity investments when the market is low (i.e the best time to buy) and follow the lemmings into equity investments when the market is high (i.e. the worst time to buy).

If I wasn't putting a bit away to dip into property again soon ( I'm afraid, I like property:D :eek: ) , I'd be investing carefully in shares now, indeed,I'd probably be asking your good self to find me another Qualcomm type share!( we'd split the 1800% between us naturally:p )
mm

daveg

I setup a pip/pep (can't remember which) about 2 years ago for my son when he starts collage and also some cash for the future. I'm putting in €50 a month. We started it through a company in Galway called HC financial consultants. They seem to be top notch people (dealt with them for other stuff as well).

Anyway when we got our yearly statement I saw we had lost money. I rang them up to see if this was perhaps a bad investment. They told me that so long as I was prepaired to invest long term (which I am) now is the best time to be investing in a PIP/PEP account as market shares are so low (which makes sense). So she said were buying all these shares at such a low price they are bound to go up in 7-10 years time.

Does anyone have any opinions on this advice ?

RainyDay

Hi Dave - You need to check what kind of fees you are being charged on this account. As them if there is a bid/offer spread (a fancy name for an entrance fee), a management fee and any other fees. You can then benchmark these fees against others in the industry - EBS are one of the lowest charging fund managers. They charge no bid/offer spread and a management fee of 1.5% per annum.

See how your fund compares to this.