(1972) uk gov had plan to expel 500,000 Catholics !

gurramok

Originally posted by mike65
gurramok, I guess that means your family has been ethnicly cleansed...

nope, more like religiously cleansed if the term can be tolerated.
Family was and is of nationalist background 'ethnic Irish', heck the grandfather even fought in war of independence against the english !
Religion was and is being used as a handy band wagon as Typedef stated.

Typedef

Being an athiest, I don't give a rats about religion.

Truth be told, I'd be just as happy if the clerics were expelled from Ireland, but let's not go there.

Again I take the view the whole national identity question is fundamentally a fallacy.

The elites who send thousands or millions to fight for a nation also glean support and credo from their followers for doing so. So in a sense a very cynical view of 'nationalism' is that it is an appendage by which the elite of soceity can keep the masses deluded with.

Marx said "Relgion is the opium of the masses", so what is so different about the Nation? If, for example the Irish or British or (any) State was such a wonderful thing for it's citizens, then why would it send it's citizens out to fight for it? Why would a State allow it's citizens smoke or drive motorcycles or do any potentially dangerous activity?

Why should the 'elite' benefit from the milk of the State and be protected by the throngs of the nation? You see the Northern situation is a very handy way for both the British and the Irish to have (an enemy) a convienent target to vent frustation at, as opposed to venting that frustration at the government.

So in this regard, having 'some enemy' at the doorstep, helps to keep the elite in power. This point I feel is one reason why the Bush administration has and is engaging in war. War in the American context helps to distract people from the mess the Republican party made of the American economy.

Now you can deride me for that opinion, but if the USA was not in the midst of a "war on *ism", then would it not be likely the citizens of the US would be looking around and saying : "Hey how come all these people are loosing their jobs?".

Thus national strife and conflict is simply an engine of repression, used by the elite of each soceity to entrench those elite's control of that soceity. So nationalism is simply an elaborate exercise in mob control.

Thanks, and please don't forget to vote.

Victor

Originally posted by Man
Well, not really, free thinking adults, who have one protestant parent, will always be more aware of that tradition than those, with both parents being catholic. It would be open, to any catholic, brought up in this way, to "turn" to protestantism if they so wish. And to my Knowledge, the Church of Ireland used give a grant to any catholic that wished to do so.

A freind and his siblings come from a mixed marriage, the boys are RC, the girls Greek Orthodox.

mike65

Originally posted by gurramok
nope, more like religiously cleansed if the term can be tolerated.

I'm not sure if thats any better...

Religion was and is being used as a handy band wagon as Typedef stated.

True enough, and like Typedef I dont have a religious bone in my body.

Mike.

seaghdhas

I had a reply but through the brilliant unintelligence of people who couldn't read a number if it was tatooed to their forehead, it's now entirely lost.

Basically;

Marx said "Relgion is the opium of the masses", so what is so different about the Nation? If, for example the Irish or British or (any) State was such a wonderful thing for it's citizens, then why would it send it's citizens out to fight for it?

Why would a State allow it's citizens smoke or drive motorcycles or do any potentially dangerous activity?

There is naivity to saying 'but the state does work for it's people' in every case, it can happen that a state does more good than bad for it's people. I agree with Typedef's overall point, and that a state allows to happen things that harms it's citizens, settling into a life where accepting there is no utopia is no harm. Or have I just pointed out the obvious?

Maybe but I just wanted to give out about that lack of grey stuff.

gungho

well this is great - cause i came to this site with a prejudice - that you would all be a bunch of , and please excuse my lingo - boston micks / plastic paddies of the fields of athenrye generation with all the assumptions that go with those names - i must apologise , sorry guys.
i had not really expected to stay here long but im totally wrong - this is a really good debate and its not one sided either. i usually reside on a music site , and its my only forum - so cool stuff.

gungho

yes - in response to some stuff up there a couple of points :

most of the catholics i know from northern ireland are unionist.

ian paisley spends most of his time attacking the presbyterian church in ireland than the rc church . ( you can get live ip sermons from this site called - sermonaudio - or something , ill find it - its actully quite interesting to be able to hear it live ).

a question : if we had a united ireland - what would the govt. be -cause it would kill all the established parties north and south. this is intersting cause after reunion the whole senario would change.

fisifan01

i agree with typedef 100% i was born an anglican or protestant(now atheist). i am fully proud to be irish so are my family who are devout to their faith. i am in no way pro unionist. i certainly do not consider myself to be british i am not a gers fan either. i am proud to learn the irish language. many of irelands greatest patriots were protestant. Wolfe tone, emmett, parnell, lady gregory, hyde. yeats our national poet was anglican. i dunno why there are ignoramoses who go around accussing us of being british invaders. and other stuff. but as typedef says religion is in many cases just a bandwagon which people use as an excuse for hatred and conflict

Originally posted by Victor
A freind and his siblings come from a mixed marriage, the boys are RC, the girls Greek Orthodox.

Today, that is actually, the most common solution, in mixed marriages.The Catholic churches edicts are generally ignored and rightly so imho.
It can be very difficult, I'd imagine though, to bring siblings, up in different religions, very confusing , especially, when the brother is being thought one thing and a sister, the other.
It would water down the "truth" thought in either belief, especially if the different religions had different views on God and how the bible in interpreted.
mm

Originally posted by fisifan01
i agree with typedef 100% i was born an anglican or protestant(now atheist). i am fully proud to be irish so are my family who are devout to their faith. i am in no way pro unionist. i certainly do not consider myself to be british i am not a gers fan either. i am proud to learn the irish language. many of irelands greatest patriots were protestant. Wolfe tone, emmett, parnell, lady gregory, hyde. yeats our national poet was anglican. i dunno why there are ignoramoses who go around accussing us of being british invaders. and other stuff. but as typedef says religion is in many cases just a bandwagon which people use as an excuse for hatred and conflict

Your views there sum up the evolution, that has occured since independence.
If by quirk of fate, your family were living in the six counties and protestant, they would most likely be unionist.
This whole unionism thing in my view has been hi-jacked over the last 80 years by protestant (catholic hating) religous Zealots.
They have propagated, their views on the masses, helped on by the atrocious IRA campaign up untill the GFA.
There was no room, due to those factors, in that time frame for the kind of evolution( in Protestant attitudes to the State ) that occured in the South to happen.
mm