Overseas voting

Lennoxschips

Should Irish citizens (passport holders) living abroad be allowed to vote in Irish elections and referendums? Off the top of my head, US citizens living abroad vote in US elections and Dutch citizens also. I'm sure other countries also do this.

There are a sizeable number of Irish citizens living abroad, and they are not allowed to vote. I live in Holland, and I can't vote in Dutch elections (I'm Irish) and can't vote in Irish elections (I don't live in Ireland). I can't vote anywhere.

Obviously, Fianna Fail would never approve of this, because it was their mismanagement of the nation in the 1980s and early 90s that caused massive emigration to the UK and Europe. These people would never vote for FF. It's a shame Labour and FG didn't introduce it when they were in power...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips

I can vote in Dutch county council elections and Euro elections. But not in General Elections. That's like vegetables without the meat.

Chaos-Engine

I disagree with this totally.
You should vote in the elections of your locality. Be you an Irish man living in A certain constituancy in The Netherlands you should be able to vote just like a Dutch citzen.
You should only be able to vote in Irish elections from abroad if you are travelling or on short leave of your home.
I'm assuming that you are living in the netherlands for an extended period of time(it my in fact now be your home).

The whole point in electing a public representitive is based on locality
In this way i think that the whole of the EU should change its laws and allow those EU passport holders to vote in ONLY the elections for where they have lived and worked for the majority of a 2 year period.

Examples: "Irish citzen working in Rotterdam for 20 months of a 2 year period only returning home for visits"
"Irish student from Waterford studying in Dublin for over 2 years should vote for a dublin candiadate"

If the system you propose was installed then almost anyone could vote in the Irish elections and a larger number of non-resident Irish and Irish-Decendant(*I'll explain*) could perhaps out number those resident Irish ppl voting in elections. e.g. What benefits are Irish ppl living abroad going to see from an election here. If you leave Ireland you can't expect to be as much a citzen as those that live here and work here and make this country what it is...

*Due to current Irish citzen laws it is possible for someone that has a Grandfather that was Irish to gain an Irish passport even though they and their parents are american(holy shiite )*

hallelujajordan

I agree with Chaos-engine. It doesn't do anything to further the cause of democracy to allow people who are not affected by the governance of the state to have a role in electing who should govern it. Imagine the influence on the make-up of our government if Irish-americans were allowed to vote in a general election? Sinn-Fein would certainly gain a few more seats !

Borzoi

As others have said, allowing Irish Citizens abroad to vote in general elections would unbalance the system due to the massive numbers of them. This is unlike the situation in US and N'lands you'd think, but after the last Presidentials, Gore was slightly ahead in Florida before the oversea votes came in - though mostly from US forces serving abroad.

I think what previously been suggested was to establish an ex-pat Constiuency either in Seaned or Dail to give them some representation. A compromise which might work.

I'm speaking as someone who is entitled to vote in the uS, specifically New York. I have voted on Presidential candidates, where I know the policies, but there is always an array of local politicians and city posts up for grabs that I ignore as I don't know the issues/individuals.

PH01

About 40 million Americans claim to be Irish, so can you imagine that lot voting in a general election!? It would be great fun! All those canvassers flying off to America looking for votes. And of course this will shoot the spending limits to hell.
And that's just America. What about Paddy Murphy working in the jungles of Malaysia? How are we going to canvass for his vote?

Victor

What about no representation without taxation?

I can accept people with Irish residence (perhaps based on the rules used by the Revenue Commissioners) getting a postal vote, but not everyone with a passport.

There is also the issue of people have dual voting rights (Irish citizens can vote in the UK and vice versa if they are resident in the other jurisdiction). What would this do to the concept of one man one vote?

Lennoxschips

I agree that if the EU is truly for "free movement of citizens" then as an EU citizen, I should be able to vote in the Dutch elections (as I pay Dutch tax), even though I am an Irish citizen. Also logically, EU passport holders living in Ireland paying Irish tax should be allowed to vote in Irish elections.

Perhaps this should be brought up at the next EU meeting, because at the moment, there are people like me who can't vote in national elections anywhere.

PH01, stop sensationalising. Last I checked there weren't 40 million fully fledged Irish citizens living in the US. If all the people in the US who are eligible for Irish passports wanted them they would have applied for them long ago.

I like the idea of an "overseas" constituency. I can imagine the vote tally coming in:

Total valid ballots: 98,765 (Ninety-eight thousand, seven-hundred and sixty-five)
Fianna Fail: 102 (One hundred and two)
hahaha

DadaKopf

I think, really, the bottom line should be that you cannot vote in an election that doesn't affect you in your present location. This, plainly, goes for general elections, but also referenda. Overseas voters simply wouldn't be immersed in the debate for long enough (and depending on how long they've been away), they would be poorer judges on deciding what's best for their country at that particular time. They would be operating under a veil of ignorance and, strangely enough, it's bad for the democracy and fairness.

However, the EU presents a different scenario. As EU citizens, we all should be entitled to vote in an EU election (parilamentary or referendum should such elections come to be) in whatever country we happen to be living in.

This whole debate really related to concepts of nationality and citizenship. As the picture has become much more complicated in recent decades, the fairest and simplest solution is to agree that one should only be entitled to vote in an election which affects them in their location at that time.

Victor

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
I agree that if the EU is truly for "free movement of citizens" then as an EU citizen, I should be able to vote in the Dutch elections (as I pay Dutch tax), even though I am an Irish citizen.

Will you then be tottering down to the Irish embassy to vote again? The level of freedom of movement you ask for willl require a correseponding control of identity.

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Also logically, EU passport holders living in Ireland paying Irish tax should be allowed to vote in Irish elections.

But this must be reciprocal and checked to prevent fraud.

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Perhaps this should be brought up at the next EU meeting, because at the moment, there are people like me who can't vote in national elections anywhere.

It is already part of EU policy, but is implemented by agreement on a bi-lateral basis (between the two countries involved). Hence you have the UK-Ireland arrangement that other countries aren't privy to.

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
PH01, stop sensationalising. Last I checked there weren't 40 million fully fledged Irish citizens living in the US. If all the people in the US who are eligible for Irish passports wanted them they would have applied for them long ago.

Perhaps not, but there are possibly millions of people, outside the country, who could get citizenship.

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
I like the idea of an "overseas" constituency. I can imagine the vote tally coming in: Total valid ballots: 98,765 (Ninety-eight thousand, seven-hundred and sixty-five)
Fianna Fail: 102 (One hundred and two) hahaha

While I am no fan of FF, this is exactly the reason not to do as you suggest. People affecting the make-up of a government that won't affect them, purely out of spite.

Chaos-Engine

As for US citzens applying for Irish Passports I am glad that US passport holders can only hold one passport(their US one)... If they wish to apply for another nationality they must handover their US passport....

In the end I think Non-EU nationals residing in an EU constituancy should also be able to vote after a longer period of time while applying for citzenship or part-citzenship

*************************

Any way. Can't see much in my proposed sovernty changes ever happening until a world crisis such as (5 years Oil left). FF would never agree to it as this would see the Nationlist vote fall to a more multi-national Labour style vote

Borzoi

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
As for US citzens applying for Irish Passports I am glad that US passport holders can only hold one passport(their US one)... If they wish to apply for another nationality they must handover their US passport....

Sorry C-E, not the case, I have both US and Irish and use both.

Victor

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
As for US citzens applying for Irish Passports I am glad that US passport holders can only hold one passport(their US one)... If they wish to apply for another nationality they must handover their US passport....

I know of a staff member of an American Embassy (not Dublin) with 3 passports, diplomatic, American and Irish. However an Irish-American friend had to give up his Irish passport when he joined the military, as do certain other people in sensative positions.

DadaKopf

I think there are two issues running concurrently in this debate which need to be teased out and discussed separately. The first issue is national identity and the second is citizenship.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but has anyone in this thread questioned the meaning of citizenship? What are the conditions of citizenship and, more importantly, what are the responsibilities that come with citizenship?

People have been happy to talk about possessing multiple tokens of citizenship (eg. passports) but what citizenship is - what those tokens stand for - with relation to national identity and global location, hasn't really been discussed.

But I'm too tired to think about it much more right now.

Lennoxschips

Will you then be tottering down to the Irish embassy to vote again? The level of freedom of movement you ask for willl require a correseponding control of identity.

Those controls already exist. EU residents living in Holland are registered and are given special ID cards. Non-Irish EU citizens have to register if they want to work and reside in Ireland. So they know which people are working overseas.

Lennoxschips

there are possibly millions of people, outside the country, who could get citizenship.

That's more of an argument against our citizenship laws, rather than an argument against overseas voting.

If people are so worried about 40 million potential Irish citizens, then they should do something about it now. Because there's nothing to stop them all getting Irish passports and moving to Ireland right now. We'd have some traffic problem then.

Shinji

I find the Dutch situation odd - are you sure you've investigated it fully? As soon as I moved to the UK and registered to pay council tax on my house, I was eligible to vote in all elections here - I voted in a general election less than a year after moving here.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Shinji
I find the Dutch situation odd - are you sure you've investigated it fully? As soon as I moved to the UK and registered to pay council tax on my house, I was eligible to vote in all elections here - I voted in a general election less than a year after moving here.

Ireland and the UK have a special system in place that allows this. We do much the similar for them... I snif a case for the EU courts There by we don't treat other EU members like we treat the brits.

Victor

Shinji, Chaos-Engine read my posts.

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Those controls already exist. EU residents living in Holland are registered and are given special ID cards. Non-Irish EU citizens have to register if they want to work and reside in Ireland. So they know which people are working overseas.

But the Irish Embassy will not have notice of your Dutch green card will they? And how many people actually get green cards? How are you suggesting the system would actually work?

Lennoxschips

The EU countries could pool the data for all the EU foreigners living in their countries into a database. The government could check their voting register against it to make sure I wasn't voting in Irish elections while I was living in Holland.

Obviously, people would have problems with this though, along the lines of "Big Brother"

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
The EU countries could pool the data for all the EU foreigners living in their countries into a database. The government could check their voting register against it to make sure I wasn't voting in Irish elections while I was living in Holland.

Obviously, people would have problems with this though, along the lines of "Big Brother"

People mostly agree with Electronic Voting besides the obvious ease of knowing who voted for who.... I don't think they could mind too much about your idea. This could mean Students could vote in mass . And many more ppl that aren't neccessarily in their locality at that immediate time of a vote...