driving licence

Kappar

I’m not sure where to post this so I’ll put it here; feel free to move it.

I have relatively unimportant question that I’d like to ask. With the new regulations requiring you to have your driving licence in the car when you driving or accompanying a provisional driver, do you think they should make the driving licenses credit card size so that you can carry them in your wallet/purse or just make it easier to carry? I know some people that will leave them in their car but for those who don’t want to or can’t leave it there and for motorbike/moped drivers it would make it much easier.

I know there is a lot more and better things to be worrying about but what can you do if you live in a shoe?????:D

lynchie

From reports in several papers over the past few weeks, it seems the goverment will be bringing out a credit card sized dirving license but it probably wont be ready until at least may/june.

seamus

There have been one-line statements from the Dept. that these will actually be introduced sometime this year, but they've said nothing remotely guaranteed.

I've always carried my licence with me, even when I was driving a car. My wallet's always been big enough to carry it comfortably (although it does get a bit warped). Plus the little plastic sleeve is perfect for carrying your tax and insurance discs (because I reckon it's too easily stolen from the bike, and I'm too lazy to go buy a holder in a shop ).

A credit-card style one would be nice, but I can't really fit any more 'credit-card style' cards in my wallet.

Kappar

OK it's nice to see the government to do something even if it is only a small issue like this and it is even taken them about six month :rolleyes:

seamus if you want to get rid of some of those CC send them round to me i'll but them in with my Vista and paper AmEx

dathi1

Drivers license ..good idea.....prelude to a European/#..sorry National Identity card?

sceptre

Originally posted by dathi1
Drivers license ..good idea.....prelude to a European/#..sorry National Identity card?

You're not alone in worrying about that.

I wouldn't see it as the same thing at all - it's somewhat important that the cops can check that the person is actually licensed to drive the vehicle they're in IMHO. I can see the purpose in this.

Compulaory carrying of an identity card is something I'd happily go to the barricades over (I don't swallow this "if you've done nothing wrong" rubbish about any of these things)

Kappar

Originally posted by sceptre

Compulaory carrying of an identity card is something I'd happily go to the barricades over (I don't swallow this "if you've done nothing wrong" rubbish about any of these things)

Your right the "if you've done nothing wrong" argument is the worst attempt at trying to justify something that erodes and/or removes our rights.

You wouldn't be alone at the barricades i'd be there.
I won't chant the old cliché of "what do we want..." I cringe when i hear that been chanted:D

Moriarty

What, exactly, is the problem with a national compulsory ID card? I cant think of anything that would worry me about it off the top of my head..

dathi1

What, exactly, is the problem with a national compulsory ID card? I cant think of anything that would worry me about it off the top of my head..

you'll probably say the same thing when they implement iris scan for every move u make.

spongebob

Imagine

plod asks for ID coz he does
you're not carrying because you are walking as it happens
you get searched
you have car key on ya...easily happens... but no licence

then what?

Moriarty

Originally posted by Muck
Imagine

plod asks for ID coz he does
you're not carrying because you are walking as it happens
you get searched
you have car key on ya...easily happens... but no licence

then what?

What does he care if you have carkeys on you? He doesnt, your not in the car. I dunno what would happen if you didnt have id on you.. i presume youd have to turn up at the local station with it within X number of hours/days..

dogs

Originally posted by seamus

...
Plus the little plastic sleeve is perfect for carrying your tax and insurance discs (because I reckon it's too easily stolen from the bike, and I'm too lazy to go buy a holder in a shop ).

I have to admit I share the same concerns as you (have never had a disc stolen though). Bikes are exempt from carrying an insurance disc, but you are still obliged to display a valid tax disc on your vehicle.

I was stopped at one of those routine tax & insurance stops and had my disc in my pocket (hadn't got around to replacing the old one, chain-gaurd is a silly place to put it if you ask me ) and the Garda said it had to be displayed but he'd "let me off" this once.

Technically he could've done me for "No tax disc/tax disc not displayed" which is the charge you usually see if you flick through the courts section of your local paper.

I guess it's unlikely that'd you ever actually be charged for it, but then I've read of people who've gotten 2 penalty points for 68mph in a 60mph zone. Depends on the Garda...


I dont think it's anything like a national identity card, people in this country seem to take driving as a right. Hearing people saying things like "Sure I've been driving for years on my out-of-date provisional, never had a bother" makes me shudder.


Of course I'd be opposed to any form of national identity card. The "if you're innocent you have nothing to fear" argument is fundamentally flawed. There is an unfortunate presumption that a democratic government won't ever do anything "wrong". I think Nazi Germany is the first example everyone would think of but there are countless examples, even in our own little republic.

There's a quote in Peopleware (can't find my copy so I don't know who said it) about freedom and it's the one I always say to people when they spout "I don't do anything wrong so it won't affect me, just the criminals"...

"The right to be right is irrelevant; it's only the right to be wrong that makes you free."

Doing what you're allowed to isn't freedom, doing only what the government/your boss tells you to isn't freedom, animals in cages do only what they are allowed to do and nobody would say they are free.

Not as off-topic as I thought

gurramok

Don't forget that they will want to put a tax on your spanking new credit card style licence, they will call it something like a maintenance fee

I agree with Dogs on the national identity card thing, it would be like big brother watching your every move even though they can do it via internet tracking/satellite tracking/cctv these days already.
You would be presumed guilty before being innocent !

Moriarty

Originally posted by gurramok
I agree with Dogs on the national identity card thing, it would be like big brother watching your every move even though they can do it via internet tracking/satellite tracking/cctv these days already.
You would be presumed guilty before being innocent !

How will carrying an ID card make you more 'traceable'? I mean, all bank transactions are available to the police, phone records.. etc etc etc. How would carrying a card that can be used to identify yourself make things any 'worse'?

spongebob

Originally posted by Moriarty
How will carrying an ID card make you more 'traceable'?

you mobile does that for you as it is.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Muck
you mobile does that for you as it is.

Only if its turned on

gurramok

How will carrying an ID card make you more 'traceable'? I mean, all bank transactions are available to the police, phone records.. etc etc etc. How would carrying a card that can be used to identify yourself make things any 'worse'?

Thats the worrying thing. All it takes is a corrupt element or a bad gov who could erase your identity and make you stateless.
Heck the garda ain't no angels today(Re : corruption in donegal that is known so far)
It reminds me of that Sandra Bullock film called The Net(?) where you could be erased from society at the touch of a button.
Storing everything on a national identity card would make that scenario much easier. Undesirables who speak out against any state official could have details on their identity blackened for life.

Meh

Originally posted by Moriarty
All bank transactions are available to the police, phone records.. etc etc etc. How would carrying a card that can be used to identify yourself make things any 'worse'?

The difference is that the police can't access my phone or bank records without getting a search warrant approved by a judge.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Meh
The difference is that the police can't access my phone or bank records without getting a search warrant approved by a judge.

ID cards are simply a method of proving who you say you are, nothing more. What you are talking about is similar to our RSI numbers. RSI number != ID card. Anyhow, if the state was that corrupt i think i would end up emigrating elsewhere long before it got to the extent you are describing. Deploy tin foil hats........ now.

Meh

Originally posted by Moriarty
ID cards are simply a method of proving who you say you are, nothing more.

Nobody in their right mind objects to ID cards. What people are worried about is compulsory ID cards.

Anyhow, if the state was that corrupt i think i would end up emigrating elsewhere long before it got to the extent you are describing.

Don't you watch the news? There's plenty of police corruption in this country. Better start packing...

JustHalf

What's wrong with a compulsory ID card? All this means is that you can't give a false name to the Gardai. OH NOE!

Moriarty

Originally posted by Meh
Nobody in their right mind objects to ID cards. What people are worried about is compulsory ID cards.

Theres no difference between it being compulsory or not, its used for the same reasons.

Originally posted by Meh
Don't you watch the news? There's plenty of police corruption in this country. Better start packing...

There is a certain level of corruption in almost any organisation you look at, no matter where in the world you are.

The gardai here arent known for picking you up in the middle of the night and quizing you about (whatever you seem to think they will quiz you about, when they know what you do..) under bright lights and other psuedo-gestapo tactics you seem to be inferring.

Remember kids, tinfoil hats are all the rage this time of year.

pickarooney

My experience of living in countries with compulsory ID cards is that you will only ever be asked for it if you're not white.
So that's alright then.

John R

Originally posted by Moriarty
Theres no difference between it being compulsory or not, its used for the same reasons.

No it is not, a card such as a bank card is used by the holder for his own benefit, a compulsory card is for the use of the state, it has no benefit for the holder.

There is a certain level of corruption in almost any organisation you look at, no matter where in the world you are.

The gardai here arent known for picking you up in the middle of the night and quizing you about (whatever you seem to think they will quiz you about, when they know what you do..) under bright lights and other psuedo-gestapo tactics you seem to be inferring.

[/B]

Just because the Gardai do not routinely infringe on peoples rights in that manner, does not mean we should make it easier for them if they want to.
If the police or any other government body want to force me to hand over personal information or property then I want them to have to legally prove justification first.

Moriarty

Originally posted by John R
No it is not, a card such as a bank card is used by the holder for his own benefit, a compulsory card is for the use of the state, it has no benefit for the holder.

Yes, it is. A compulsory ID card is for the use of the states citizens to identify themselves when it is asked of them by the police, or bank, or bouncers outside nightclubs for that matter.

Originally posted by John R
If the police or any other government body want to force me to hand over personal information or property then I want them to have to legally prove justification first.

Your name is not personal information, its in the public domain. Neither is your face. Your age, place of birth and current address, among other details, are all clearly marked on your driving licence and/or passport.

I must ask, do you identify friends and family members by number instead of name, incase the thought police discover their real names? Do you whisper your name to the bank teller in case somone else overhears?

seamus

Originally posted by John R
If the police or any other government body want to force me to hand over personal information or property then I want them to have to legally prove justification first.

In fairness, there must be exceptions to this rule. Driving licences for example. I have no problem with Gardai stopping me for no reason and asking for my licence. It helps to weed out people who may be driving while banned/drink driving etc - offences which aren't obvious offences until the motorist is stopped for no reason.

Hangover atm prevents from coming up with any other examples

gurramok

Yes, it is. A compulsory ID card is for the use of the states citizens to identify themselves when it is asked of them by the police, or bank, or bouncers outside nightclubs for that matter.

Its misuse by state officials that is the problem, there is plenty of corruption around.

Your name is not personal information, its in the public domain. Neither is your face. Your age, place of birth and current address, among other details, are all clearly marked on your driving licence and/or passport.

My name, my age maybe in public domain to be asked/viewed by gov agency.
Personal info such as bank info belongs to me, not some state agency.
They should ask for access to that info legally and not have automatic access unless I was a big criminal.
Heck they are probably recording what i do on the net right now when i post this

Do you whisper your name to the bank teller in case somone else overhears?

Believe it or not, some people do including myself.
When you are talking to a bank official with other people around, you have to be cautious.
There is a crime problem out there ya know !

JustHalf

Why do you assume your bank information is going to be on the card? Can you in any way justify your paranoia?

It is reasonable to assume that the ID card will carry your name, picture, date of birth (and perhaps your PPS number). I can't see why anything else would need to be included. Can you?

John R

Originally posted by Moriarty
Yes, it is. A compulsory ID card is for the use of the states citizens to identify themselves when it is asked of them by the police, or bank, or bouncers outside nightclubs for that matter.

No, a non-compulsory ID is for those purposes, a compulsory ID is for the state, specifically the police to demand information whenever and wherever they like without justification under threat of legal penalty.

If I want to use the services of a bank or enter a nightclub and the conditions include providing ID then I can choose to abide by those rules or decline the service.

Your name is not personal information, its in the public domain. Neither is your face. Your age, place of birth and current address, among other details, are all clearly marked on your driving licence and/or passport.

My name is by definition is personal information. A driving licence is required for driving and a passport for leaving the country, If I do not wish to do either then I might very well not have either of these documents. Even if I do have them, unless they are being used for their intended purpose nobody has the right to demand that I produce them.

I must ask, do you identify friends and family members by number instead of name, incase the thought police discover their real names? Do you whisper your name to the bank teller in case somone else overhears?

I must ask, do you need to rely on childish comments and personal insults to justify your opinions? I suppose that by your logic anyone who even questions the power of the state is some sort of paranoid madman. Tell that to the millions killed in Stalanist Russia and Eastern Europe. I suppose that you believe it cannot happen in a democracy, then explain the McCarthy era communist witch hunts in America, or the internment of republicans and catholics in Northern Ireland?

John R

Originally posted by seamus
In fairness, there must be exceptions to this rule. Driving licences for example. I have no problem with Gardai stopping me for no reason and asking for my licence. It helps to weed out people who may be driving while banned/drink driving etc - offences which aren't obvious offences until the motorist is stopped for no reason.

Hangover atm prevents from coming up with any other examples

I agree completely, driving is quite rightly a restricted activity and I am very happy that there is more emphasis being put on detecting the unlicensed and uninsured. If the cost of driving is to have to prove that I am legally entitled to do so then I can live with that.
I believe that far too many people in Ireland think that they have an absolute right to drive a car without any responsibility on them to ensure they understand the rules or be capable of controlling their vehicle.