Microsoft ain't so bad....

Adversary

Since time immemorial if you asked a console player what he wanted out of a games machine he probably would have said "A bigger telly". But the average console player is not too bright and tends to be spotty and smell of wee.

If you asked a PC player however the answer given to countless magazines over and over again would have been something along the lines of : A striped down version of a PC with an OS core designed to give the same "put in disk and switch on" ability of consoles.

And in the Microsoft X-box we get exactly that. A striped down version of the Windows 2000 operation system, a 600Mhz chip, 64MB of RAM, a modem and an 8GB hard drive. If you're thinking these specs sound awfully familiar you'd be right. It seems to be designed to be double the power and speed of the playstation 2. Just look at these figures :


X-Box PlayStation 2
CPU 600Mhz 300Mhz
Memory 64MB 38MB
Memory bandwidth 6.4GB/sec 3.2GB/sec
Pixel fill rate 4.8GB/sec 2.4GB/sec
Storage medium 4x DVD, 8GB HD, 2x DVD, 8GB HD,
8MB memory card 8MB memory card

There's more : the X-Box seems to out-perform the PlayStation 2 in just about every area - I just can't be bothered listing them all cos they mean nothing to me anyway.

The real difference however is in the approach. While the PlayStation 2 is going to have e-mail and internet access, making it almost a small, crappy PC, with all the problems associated; the X-Box is going to focus entirely on games. The word at the moment is that the internet connection will be used solely to play games online - in the same servers as PC players - and to download characters and levels for games. Basically HD use will be hidden from the user - games will use it to store information and downloads and maintain a perpetual universe (i.e. if you crash horribly at Silverstone, the next time you play the barrier will still be dented).

People say that Microsoft won't be able to build in the ease of use associated with consoles using it's windows experience, but I think this will help them. The main problem with PCs is that everybody's machine is different. I doubt if any two home-users have the same combination of hardware and software. It's dealing with the support needs of different hardware devices and software systems that cause the most headaches. In the X-Box, every machine will have the same hardware and software. The only differences will be insignificant things like different controllers and games. Basically, if it works on one X-Box - it'll work on every X-Box. There'll be no accounting for Win95/Win98/Win2000 users or people who need VooDoo2 support.

The only pitfall I see is that it's scheduled for a Xmas 2001 launch. A 600Mhz cpu and 64MB of RAM will seem dated by then (it does now) but they can probably bung in a faster chip and more RAM without altering the design much. The success of the PlayStation was largely due to the fact it was the first of it's generation of consoles on the market. Everybody wanted the same as their friends so they could play each other and swap games and also because it was out longer, there was much more games for it.

Amazingly, Sega haven't had the same success with the Dreamcast, but this could change if Sony don't release the PlayStation 2 before Christmas. Either way, one of them will have established market dominance before Christmas 2001, and no matter how good the X-Box is - it'll barely get a toe in the door.

Hobbes

The problem I can see is M$ security is so flakey it won't surprise me that someone will come out with a hack to create thier own login into your machine and use it to thier advantage. As you can never see what's on the hard drive most people aren't going to have a clue when the Feds bash down thier door for the kiddy porn web site they have set up.

Of course this is worst case. Assuming the game makers get smart and don't a Diablo on the games (Keep all important information on the machine) the chances of someone hacking thier own Xbox and tampering with stats to cheat should be lower.

It will be also intresting to see what information they will harvest from the machines. (both MS And Sony). Sony already got a few kicks to the head over adding a patch to EQ which allowed them to look through your machine (they killed it pretty quickly too after the complaints).

Lastly, I have always found consoles a waste of money. A PC would allow games and internet access and office apps. Plus when you were finished to got to mess with the programs. Consoles your stuck with a cartridge.

PS2 might have the right idea if it touts itself as not only a game station but a cheap end internet access (kind of dumb terminal). If it takes the learning curve out of connecting to the net. Kind of why WebTV and iMacs are friendlier to techincal illiterate (well the only people I know who have them, haven't really a clue about Computers at all).

Noel Brady

Guys,

I think you're missing the whole point of a console. The whole basis of the PlayStation, Dreamcast, N64 and XBox is that they are easy and carefree. Especially when compared to a PC.

With a console you can walk into a shop and browse around at the games without having to worry about specifications, minimum requirements etc.

With a PC you can get the game home and be suddenly told that you don't have enough or that your 3D card just isn't quick enough.

Facts are that the PC just wasn't built for games. Whatever you say, PC gaming is a nightmare.

In all fairness, I actually think PC gaming will die away with the consoles now supporting the internet and this is why Bill Gates has chosen to move into this new market. Even he knows that PC gaming is on its way out.

Noel Brady www.game-ireland.com

Adversary

they can't download kiddie porn to your HD cos you can't do that - you can't use it for browsing at all

you can use the dc and ps2 for internet and email - which is easy and carefree?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Noel Brady:
With a console you can walk into a shop and browse around at the games without having to worry about specifications, minimum requirements etc.

With a PC you can get the game home and be suddenly told that you don't have enough or that your 3D card just isn't quick enough.

Facts are that the PC just wasn't built for games. Whatever you say, PC gaming is a nightmare.

In all fairness, I actually think PC gaming will die away with the consoles now supporting the internet and this is why Bill Gates has chosen to move into this new market. Even he knows that PC gaming is on its way out.

I disagree with you. Mac's have for some time had the same "don't worry about the specs" level that most consoles have. Simply because the specs were more or less the same.

As for Windows as a gaming nightmare. You only have one company to blame for that. With changing the API's and forcing companies to use DirectX instead of OpenGL making sure that ports weren't easily possible (so stopping people moving to other machines because the games arent there).

As for Console specs, that's not true either. Some games don't play without certain add-ons (eg. Memory card). In DC's case over here you need to buy a cable just to plug it into your telly.

With the PC your not locked into the same hardware. Need to upgrade your GFX card/processor? just buy a new one and slot it in. With the consoles it normally requires replacing the thing. Although Sony are copping onto this.

They all have pro's and cons and you have to ask yourself what you want to do with it before you go out and buy.

Adversary, if they can by remote write to your machine, then anyone can (nothing is hack proof). I know DC uses a built in FTP server as they had an article on Slashdot a while back on how to break into it.

bugs

Hahaha, this is a silly argument.
X-box out-performs Ps2 , errrrrr , how'd ya figure that one , ps2 ->has games to benchmark, X->has nothing whatsoever

The x-box isnt even completed yet , so much so that ppl can't even get the specs right.
Its been upgraded to a 700Mhz machine and is hinted at 1Ghz before finally giving it a fu<king rest.

Software companies ( mainly console ones ) don't like microsoft , can't blame 'em , i don't either.
Companies like namco are saying that they won't make games for the machine, hopefully others will follow suit.
Gaming on Pc and console is almost a different world. Consoles cater for your more instant gratification person , hence Pc's stick to samie games , mostly fps and RTS games, with some hardcore sims thrown in.

Oh and yes , we console gamers have no brain, altho what does that say for PC gamers when the biggest hits on PC , originate on consoles ..... the resident evil series .... final fantasy series, both huge sellers on PC.

Personally i dont even think you need such huge specs, i have a p3 500 with a tnt 2 ultra and i dont think it could handle something like tekken tag/kessen/DoA2 and they're only scratching the surface of the machines power and for what ?
Its got a 300Mhz processor and a 4MB gfx card, its got a good architecture behind it, and its built to do what it does , i have a sneaking suspicion that microsoft will load the X box with ****** , i dont care if it has an nvidia chip, it has no ****ing games!!!!!

Adversary

of course they can store the kiddie porn on your hd but you can't access it so there's no way you can be blamed for it. They could prolly hack it and wreck your games but that'd be the hacking equivalant of pushing a child off the swings

Bugs: I did say that the spec would prolly change b4 launch and the best selling PC games originate on the PC (half-life, q3, championship manager3). How many of these are later ported (badly) to the consoles? Doom2 on colsole anyone? I didn't thing so.

As to developing games for the X-Box - Microsoft will throw bags of money at people until they port the best titles over. They're also relying on a lot of in-house development. They're recruting a lot of top games people from other publishers and they must already have some good people in-house(Midtown Madness, AOE2)

bugs

Hmmm , some ppl can't be bought , they've been throwing money at namco for a very long time and they still haven't got them to develop. Just a point , quake 3 is **** , gimme quakeworld anyday , half life: trolley wars , hahahaha.
There are far less conversions from pc to console than the other way around.And they tend to be less successful, doom64 was a complete flop as was quake 2.

I don't want an upgradeable console , cos it's not a console and thats exactly what microsoft are after.
Thankfully there are still some games companies who are doing more than well enough to tell microsoft to go fu<k themselves.
Its just Bill realising that theres money out there that he doesnt have and ppl that arent quite with it that he can swindle it off as usual!

Noel Brady

I wouldn't underestimate Sega just yet. Dreamcast is still the only next-gen console and the market and it now looks like the PS2 is definitely going to be held back for an after Christmas release due to hardware shortages.

That means that the Dreamcast is going to have a very powerful foothold at Christmas. In recent weeks, sales have even quadrupled.

Noel Brady www.game-ireland.com

Adversary

^
didn't I say that Xmas thing above |

who the *cough* heck are namco?

Don't you think the other games companies want money too. whoever developed Goldeneye said it would be N64 only then look what happened.

Q3 is pants but games aren't often developed for one platform anymore.

And which would you prefer? Having GTA on the playstation - 6 levels and months of fun or GTA on the PC - unlimeted levels, multiplayer and years of fun?

The X-Box claims to give the best of both worlds.

I find myself repeating what I said in the original post. did anyone read it or just scroll down to give their opinion?

Shiminay

I've been talking with someone at work about this and the oly sure thing we agree on is that there are interesting times ahead in the world of console gaming.

I never had a PlayStation, but I own a Dreamcast and I'm quite happy with it. From the day I bought it, I knew the then available games weren't the best in the world, but looking at the PSX, the best games have been the more recent ones (4 - 5 years after it's release).

Moving on...
The X-Box is a very good idea - the kind of thing that I'd (as a serious gamer) like to see. I do think it's a bit daft of Microsoft to be talking of finalising specs 12 months before it's proposed release. We all know the specs are going to rise, but what has to be rememberd is that one good idea could revolutionise the world of consumer electronics and make everything before it redundant.

With Sony's plans to release the Emotion Engine and the Graphics chip (name eludes me right now), I see this as a master stroke. Who remembers their history when a computer company called IBM did something similar? I think we're going to see 3rd party vendors such as Creative Labs etc, releasing their PS2 compatible consoles and creating a fierce competition in PS2 Compatible machine sales. Also, this way, Sony are getting out of the Rat Race in terms of selling consoles (according to a couple of articles I've read, the PS2 doesn't actually make profit selling at it's current price).

As for my humble Dreamcast? I don't think we need to worry too much about it being another Saturn. As Noel said above, it's the only one of it's generation available so far and will undoubtedly do well over the coming months as some people who wanted to wait for PS2 won't bother and pick themselves up an nice shiney DC.

As for me? I'm gonna step back, spend my time shooting Zombies and wait and see what happens.

---

All the best,

Dav
@B^)
My page of stuff

bugs

I almost get the impression i'm talking to someone who has no idea what they're on about.
For a start , what are you talking about rare and goldeneye and other platforms.
It was never released on another platform, i dont have any great love for rare but they have never released games for anyone but nintendo, at least not to my knowledge.

'Namco' are one of the biggest console game/arcade game producers in the world.
They've re-written fighting games, some of their lesser known RPG's are pretty cool and they invented arcade racing , ever hear of a little game called ridge racer , or perhaps pacman , an older title they did!!!

As for pc gaming , i've always prefered console gaming , bigger TV , more games , greater selection ( GTA is boring in single player! )

Sony are trying to overtake the market among other things ,same as they did with betamax ( hahaha ) and minidisc.
As for the DC , nice machine , ppl keep hinting at it for the hardcore gamer , i have no idea why cos it tends to have arcade based games, nothing anyone can really delve into. Just because it isnt hitting over here till after christmas doesnt mean that its grand. Europe doesnt support that much of the gaming industry and from what i've seen from Sega , they really dont care what europeans buy from them. The ps2 will hit america come october, undoubted taking a huge market share from SEGA , we may get it later but rumour alone will stop most ppl from buying it and waiting for the ps2.

It'll more than likely sell in mountains to young kids but it will ultimately be phased out , when it hits rock bottom price , i'll buy it with soul calibur

Adversary

this is getting dangerously close to a flame war and I don't want to go down that road again

Bugs - you say you prefer console gaming then you say the console version of GTA is boring ?

I had heard of Namco - mainly because of their arcade games but you can hardly call Ridge Racer a landmark title. And hey, if you really like consoles, you can get equipment for the PC that will let you play games on just about every console with control pads from that console.

The guy who said he was playing GoldenEye on the playstation is actually in Sweeden now but I think I saw it on bits too.

Personally I hate Nit-endo. Mario cart has to be their best contibution to the world of gaming.

Shinji

Firstly, you don't help your argument by trying to tell people who have been playing games for years that they don't know what they're talking about. Learn some manners if you want to engage in conversation. I doubt you'd conduct a discussion like this in real life, because most people would have smacked you into next tuesday by the time you got the second sentence out of your mouth.

Secondly, your personal dislike of Microsoft is no reason for them not to do well. Personally, I really dislike Sony, but that isn't exactly a factor in the success of their console, is it? Or, indeed, in the fact that I play loads of stuff on the PSX...

Thirdly, if you were not so utterly blinkered, you would see the massive differences between PC gaming and console gaming. The markets are COMPLETELY different, because of vastly different hardware and control types. The PC is oriented towards FPS and RTS games, and simulators/space combat games. Consoles do all of these genres woefully badly. PCs, on the other hand, do RPGs, beat'em'ups and racing games very badly. Naturally, there are exceptions, but they merely prove the rule. There's no point in saying "Consoles are better than PCs", or vice versa. Thats like saying "Trousers are better than televisions". (First person to follow this up with a discussion on the relative merits of trousers and televisions shall be smacked! )

As to the issue of PC/PS2 power.... High end PCs are more powerful than the PS2. Don't even bother debating this. The fact that they are multipurpose machines means that they have to have additional features that games don't need. There's also the small point that the flexible specs of a PC means that developers can't create code as tight as console developers can, since they must allow for lots of possible hardware combinations - not to mention the security aspects, and not being allowed to write direct to the hardware. Your quoting the PS2s 400Mhz processor and 4Mb of VRAM is very silly - that's a RISC processor, you can't compare it directly to CISC (x86) clock speeds and expect any kind of speed comparison. And the 4Mb of VRAM on the PS2 is for framebuffer only, textures go elsewhere, so it's NOT comparable to the onboard RAM of PC graphics cards.

The X-Box will not be upgradeable. Talking to MS people, they tell me that while officially the box still runs at 600Mhz, internally they're committed to 700 currently, and expect 800 for launch. However, it will remain FIXED at that point. I don't give a damn who manufactures the console; the fact is, the hardware is amazingly good, significantly better than anything else out there, and very easy to develop for, which is a Good Thing. If the console is great, who cares who is manufacturing the hardware? (Never mind that MS just got broken in two. Can we all stop our stupid irrational hatred of all their products now?)

Ja,
Rob

Shinji

Oi, don't be dissing Ninty!

Mario Kart, Mario himself, Zelda, the GameBoy, the SNES, the NES, GoldenEye (ok so that was Rare, but they're in bed with Ninty), all the FF games before 7 (again, Square, but they were in Ninty's pocket at the time)...

DON'T BE DISSING NINTENDO!!!

ThunderingMike

Look , Consoles are for fun! Plain old fun. They are cabable of astounding depth aswell. But that is not the point. With a console , you have it all in front of you. The downside being , you cannot touch it. Any editing capabilities you have , are limited by the developer from day one. You can have a deep and expansive experience or a quick blasting fix or anything in between. But like I said , you can not touch it. You can only accept it for what it is.
However , with a PC , you can run wild. Creat worlds and models and go crazy in simulated environments , tailored to your gaming persuasion and all that other crazy sh!t people love about PC gaming.
On the flip side of this however , anything that you choose to use your PC for will at some point or another , without a doubt , give you some kind of butt ache. Be it a 'fatal error' message or a random crash or some other such annoyance , PC gaming is far , far from perfect.
You can only decide which is better by the type of person you are , a how far you are willing to take your interest in gaming. It appears right now , that Sony and Microsft , are going to release systems which are a compromise of these two mighty platforms. Wether or not they wil be a good compromise or even a compromise at all remains to be seen.
Nintendo will undoubtedly make the Dolphin as flexible as a flag pole but that is not to say they will not make a superb gaming platform. So while both platforms have falling points and neither is perfect. Why are we arguing? To decide which will be better? X-Box or Playstation 2? Well , personally , I think they will both have reasons to make them classics but alas , time will tell. Maybe I just took the time to type all this ******** because I am waiting for a download to finish but that is my opinion on this matter anyway. G'night.

---

So the pope puts down the Badger and leans over to me and says , 'At TFC my son , I 0wnz j00'. Before I could speak in walks Dustin Hoffman in a giant Silk Worm costume and just then...it started to get weird...

_CreeD_

The biggest thing the PS2 has going for it is the DVD drive ( I know PCs have 'em but...). 2/3 of the playstation fanatics I know are holding off on buying dedicated players and will wait for however long to grab a PS2 as they get a nice movie player for 'free'.

There's a already a huge PS2 fanbase waiting to move to the next gen. (Especially on which will play all their old games)
They like consoles, they like console games, they will NOT buy an Xbox.
Simple as that, Microsoft/CPU speeds/ Video ram mean NOTHING to most console folks (Not insulting their intelligence but the plug it in/shove in the game aspect is what atracted most folks to it as opposed to a PC).
The Xbox having better specs doesn't really mean a thing unless Microsoft can demostrate some very popular titles running astoundingly better in a 30 second TV add. Its not going to happen.
People will still go with the devil they thingk they already know.

It's not a question of technology, but ofmentality. That which split PC and console societys early on.

Adversary

I'm telling you the X-Box is the twisted spawn of PC and console we've all been waiting for - or something like that.

I didn't want to go in to the marketing of the thing beyond saying if they release it too long after the PS2 it'll flop cos markets are hard to predict. I agree with Creed though : the only way they will sell the X-Box to kids (prolly the biggest market) is to have it next to a PS2 in the shops looking much nicer, loading faster and showing a Pikachu shocking Crash Bandicoot.

"Mommy! Mommy! I wanna Pik'chu!"


While we're on the subject of marketing : look at the iMac - it shiped with hardware and software faults and still sold ****loads. I think it was the fastest selling computer ever!
The Fiat Punto is the biggest selling small car but it'll fall apart faster than that expensive toy you got your nephew for christmas and is about the worst car in it's class.
People constantly buy crap - just because they like the look of it.

bugs

I take your point shinji, you don't like sony, but i think i'd be fairly accurate in saying that alot more ppl like sony than like microsoft.
All their hardware means a total of nothing, they currently have all of 3 games in development and from the list i saw , it looked like pc titles. Granted its a long way from release. But they have little or no relation with games companies that produce for the 'console gamer'
I'm not trying to compare either machine , i don't care what microsoft put into it, its my opinion , but i cant see them going anywhere, same as the saturn and now the dreamcast(RIP)
As for goldeneye, no it was never released on another playform , least of all psx!

And emulated machines on pc's arent all that.
I have CD's full of burned roms and apart from the older machines , they're pretty annoying. I have a high end machine and playing N64 roms using nemu64 or corn or ultrahle is just annoying , theres far too many problems, gimme the real thing anyday.
Only Callus and Neorage have ever impressed me , but SNK are basically dead now so metal slug 3 will be the last dump.

Shinji

ZSNES is damn impressive too. Although, I'd trade it any day for a writeable snes cart and an original US SNES.

Yes, I think more people like Sony than like MS. However, I think that MUCH more people than would profess to "like" either company, don't give a damn about either of them. In the end, it'll come down to clever advertising and good-looking games. Both sides have proven that they can advertise well; and neither side have proven that they can do good games for their new platform, although both have good track records in the past. This is NOT a foregone conclusion for Sony, however much you may all like to think it is.

Ja,
Rob

_CreeD_

Sony - Those that systematically killed DAT, DCC and are trying to kill DVD-Audio (After signing up to it years ago)......
Any company that stifles new improved technology for the sake of profits should be destroyed.
Its not competition it's attrition.

That said they do make some nice stuff......

Adversary

You could be talking about anyone there. All companies do that. Ford put independent rear suspension on the Focus even though they had an all-round independant system ready. Rumors are they'll bring that out later and try to convince peeps to part with there money for it.

bugs

Yes, lets talk about cars............ that makes sense!

Adversary

well it went from a FYI post to a discussion about hardware, software, markets, etc. Why not cars?

Adversary

btw bugs - that's what we want to see more of on these boards : pointless criticism without appearing to understand the point of the post and without any attempt to justify the criticism either.

bugs

Who the hell is we?
And this is rich coming from a rank newbie who thinks nintendo are crap and goldeneye was cross platform released .... dope!

Stephen

Originally posted by bugs:
Who the hell is we?
And this is rich coming from a rank newbie who thinks nintendo are crap and goldeneye was cross platform released .... dope!

Calling him a dope just proves what he said about your pointless criticism.

"a rank newbie who thinks nintendo are crap" - So? We're all entitled to an opinion. I think you'll find that most of us don't give a sh1t if nintendo are crap or not.

Grow up.

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- Munch
- Visit The Fortress
- -SK- Clan site

OSiriS

Why does everyone insist on comparing the X Box with the PS2. The PS 2 is out now, the x box is planned for next year, so of course it will have better features as technology comes down in price.

---

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool

Adversary

Apart from the fact that I've been playing games for about 15 years, I'm not exactly new to these boards either.

The "we" I was refering to was the majority of people who hate to see posts like :

Originally posted by bugs:
Yes, lets talk about cars............ that makes sense!

offering pointless criticism and totally missing the comparison I was making between the marketing of Ford and Sony.

Do you really care if I hate Nitendo?


The superior performance of the X-Box wasn't really the point. The point is, if I really wanted to dig through all those magazines that I really should throw out, I could show you several examples of letters where people say something like :

"I wish there was a proper Games PC. A striped down version of Windows giving the same insert disk and play ability of a console without losing the advatages of a PC."

This is what the X-Box does. It runs a striped down version of windows2000 and is designed purely for games. It's not like a PC where you can do anything or the PS2 where you can surf the internet and use email - it's just for games. The modem is just for playing online and downloading updates for games.

This is why I think the X-Box will be so good, not because of it's hardware.

bugs

I wouldnt exactly base anything on those over-priced magazines, where 99% of the letters are made or or sent in by kids.
In my opinion, the PC is in one place for gaming and the console is on the other side of the planet.
Can't even say i like nintendo that much afer they screwed me into buying an N64 and then brought out nothing but gay kiddy games for years, but its undeniable that they are the daddies of gaming.

And as of yet , i have yet to hear of anything redeeming about te X-box, and its internet connection isnt about games only.
They fully intend to go the broadband network way, full internet access with all the trimmings was touted as one of its finer points.
I have never heard anyone say they wanted a pc that they could just plug games in and play , i seem to remember the amiga doing that with the CD32 and falling on its ass.
The whole fact that it only plays games means it isnt a pc.

Irregardless , my love sticks with the older style machines , the playstation and anything made by SNK/namco/square which are console ppl. I have never and will never like microsoft or anything they do.
Hence i wont apologise for anything i say regarding them , because i think they're corporate ****wits who are ultimately out to screw the games player over.
Be that as it may , feel free to like who you want , but i'll continue to say that the ps2 will destroy the x-box and hopefully the X-box will flop. When its released (whenever that is) we'll see , but i can't see it going anywhere.

bugs

Oh please , don't give me this, microsofts workers are all a bunch of nice lads attitude , you have no idea. And secondly it wouldnt make a bit of difference.

They have always and more than likely will always produce over-priced,bug infested products that show little or no advancement at all. Win95-Win98 , sweet fu<k all difference apart from compatibility problems that meant you had to buy microsofts new software to keep using you're new apps.

They don't help anyone design for their stuff, they're trying to force developers to use direct X instead of openGL even tho direct X pales in comparison.
They release software ( win2000 ) with more bugs than anything else on the market. And once again they make you upgrade , you cant have win2k and win98 on the same pc without problems , or nt4 for the matter.
Hell they even design their software to be bias towards software they dont like or are in competition with.

They're the bully of the computer industry and now that they're going to the supreme court , they're definetly going to be broken up.

No one likes microsoft , its not a minority thing!