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Farmers protest

"But the Department of Agriculture yesterday disputed this saying the IFA is not comparing like with like. A spokesman said the average annual income of a full-time farmer was €31,000 a year with a tax take of €1,000, compared to a tax take of around €7,000 on the average industrial earning of €26,000."
<flame proof vest adorned>
In the long term the game is up-the average size of a farm needs to increase by about 400% to be sustainable, and part time farming won't cut it.
Course some people will say we should go back to organic farming, but that was essentially what Ireland did 50 years ago.
<\flame proof vest adorned>

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dmeehan

poor farmers earn so little they can afford to take a week off to disrupt the traffic

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by dmeehan
poor farmers earn so little they can afford to take a week off to disrupt the traffic

Very inteligent comment:rolleyes:

But the Department of Agriculture yesterday disputed this saying the IFA is not comparing like with like. A spokesman said the average annual income of a full-time farmer was €31,000 a year with a tax take of €1,000, compared to a tax take of around €7,000 on the average industrial earning of €26,000."

Lets try deal with this:
Full time farmers, with no off farm job, might earn from virtually nothing right up to €31,000 and more.
The CAP as administered in Ireland encourages wildly ineffecient, small unviable farms to exist.
This is done at the expense , actually of larger, more effecient farmers,who as a result are now under pressure.
Example: milk quota's-Tiny units get access to most of the extra quota available(distributed by retiring farmers).
They have to borrow the money to buy this and most of them being so small, struggle with the repayments and end up very poor.
result: medium sized dairy farmers can buy little or no extra quota, and yet have to deal with falling prices, rising costs and bad weather.
So, the medium sized are also f*cked by the system as quota purchase , is the only expansion route and , the CAP Irish style cuts that off.
Now the first word in the CAP is common yet in France and the UK, for instance, there are no restrictions on quota purchase for dairy farmers, you can buy all the amount , you want.

There are loads of other inconsistancies riddled through the CAP irish style.
It's administered like that here so,a great number,of small ineffecient units can get European subsidies and the only reason really is so rural T.D's can get themselves elected.
It should really be called the WAP or Warped Agricultural policy.

To be honest, those farmers that are,protesting with their tractors are wasting their time,campaigning for money, they should be over in Europe,complaining about the system that has them in the mess that they are in today.
They should also get a reality check, and if they are unviable, just stop doing what they are doing, and rent their land to a younger more viable farmer instead, get a job, draw the pension or the dole.

[Deleted User]

€31,000 a year with a tax take of €1,000, compared to a tax take of around €7,000 on the average industrial earning of €26,000."

Ok a little accountancy lesson here.
From what I understand, a sole trader,can invest in capital expenditure and get relief for that.
But the money is gone! It's not there for living expenses if, it has been spent on essential plant/machinery or in the case of farmers, on sheds or mandatory polution control.

At a rate of 20% annual allowance, a sole trader/farmer would have to have spent €150,000 to be only paying €1000 in taxes on a €31,000 net profit.
This would in 99% of cases would be borrowed money with, repayments that have to be met.
That annual write off is down to 1/7th of the sum spent as a result of the recent budget-so in the above example, the sole trader will lose out to the tune of €5000 or more.

Not to mention, the fact that the loan is probably a commercial one in the first place and therefore double homeloan rates.

You see soundbites and one liners are great, but the devil is in the detail.
mm

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

spongebob

its time that someone made complete sh1te of the traffic in Dublin for 2 or 3 days out of badmindedness, gwan the farmers.

the history of the farmer and the nipple ..sorry the Cap is fascinating, there was more in the IT today.

Cork

I think that the farmers are right to protest. I heard the Minister last night going on about farmer’s gross incomes. I thought this was very below the belt. Farmers must buy fertilizer, pay contractors etc. He failed to talk about their net income.

It is refreshing that one of the social partners is standing up for themselves. Not alone do farmers have to contend with Vat increases in their inputs. They had to put up with a dire summer. I think that farming is still the main “industry” in rural Ireland.

When the tractors went through Cork yesterday – People were delighted one of the social partners was standing up to this government. People see increases in ESB, Telephone Rental, VHI, Bus, and food & drink prices. It is heartening that the IFA are making a stand when many other unions seem to be toothless.

Waylander

I think the farmers should take a look at the other industries in the country. I found myself out of a job for a couple of months last year, and funnily enough my immediate reaction was not to go and have a blocade outside Leinster House, it was to go and get a job. It is time the farmers realised that there are too many small farms for them all to make a living, and that maybe they should should do something about this for themselves instead of insisting on more handouts from the government.

Cork

It is time the farmers realised that there are too many small farms for them all to make a living, and that maybe they should should do something about this for themselves instead of insisting on more handouts from the government

Are there too many farms?
Do we want big ranch farms in Ireland?
What alternative employment is in rural Ireland?
If farms go belly up - so too will shops & post offices.

All rural people will move to the cities.

I think that If the government are willing to bring the insfrastructure in rural Ireland up the standard of Dublin or Cork - Farm Families may have options.

But in rural Ireland - Options are based largely around agriculture.

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
Do we want big ranch farms in Ireland?

If the alternative is punishing our own poor and strangling the developing world by paying billions in subsidies to small farmers, then yes, we do want big ranch farms in Ireland.

I think that If the government are willing to bring the insfrastructure in rural Ireland up the standard of Dublin or Cork - Farm Families may have options.

But in rural Ireland - Options are based largely around agriculture.

Last year's National Development Plan contains plans to improve rural infrastructure and provide people with jobs outside the main cities in the new "gateways".

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by daveirl
The farmers have little to no point. They complain about things like the fact they got more money for milk in 97 than now. That's capitalism, deal with it. No other section of society recieves more free handouts or bitches as much.

Dave,it's not capitalism at all actually, when you consider that 75% of the average farmers income comes from Europe in the form of grants and subsidies.
The U.S farmer actually under the Bush regime,in the *cough* most capitalist country in the world actually get more subsidies than the European farmer.
The subsidies are ostensibly there to guarantee a safe local supply of food. The regulations post BSE in Europe and in particular in Ireland for food production are the toughest in the world and rightly so.
None of these regulations apply to Argentina, Brazil,and other places, which is where you would have to get you food from, if too many farmers were put out of business here.
There is no need for effecient farmers to go out of business, as, what they get paid for their produce, is less than a third in most cases of what the consumer pays in the shop.

Just by example,take a dairy farmer, he is actually getting the same price, for his milk now as in 1989 , you can only imagine what way his costs have gone in the intervening years!
At the same time,where has the price of a litre, of milk in the shops gone? slightly down in recent years but not to 1989 prices.
thats due in the main, to the power of the multiples, ie TESCO and Dunnes and the like.
The consumer only thinks that , the multiples have their best interests at heart,but they don't they only want profit.
They are actually singularly responsible in my opinion for higher food prices.They have their suppliers over a barrel,especially in the case of dairy products, as milk goes off very quickly and for environmental reasons cannot be thrown out.

Now most business's in the capitalist world will rise their prices annually by the rate of inflation. And in most cases the same business's will give their employee's, a rise annually, or at a minimum , whatever, the relevant national agreement says.

I think the farmers should take a look at the other industries in the country. I found myself out of a job for a couple of months last year, and funnily enough my immediate reaction was not to go and have a blocade outside Leinster House, it was to go and get a job. It is time the farmers realised that there are too many small farms for them all to make a living, and that maybe they should should do something about this for themselves instead of insisting on more handouts from the government.

Oh I agree and many of the farmers I have met anyhow, do have an outside job or their wife has.
But their total family income is still going down as the farming income is falling , and that is their grievance.
Basically what I am saying here is, that pretty soon, many will actually leave that business as it is not sustainable.
A reality check is needed for those that are unviable. But if the E.U wants food grown and produced locally and under stringent safety conditions, it will have to be paid for, it won't appear by magic.
just my 2 cent on the matter
mm

red vex

i think the very negative attitude towards farmer is shameful

during the so-called celtic tiger 90% of farmers in my area had to look 4 work elsewhere because their farms werent able to support them.

farmers are being screwed price-wise for their produce and when they try to address these problems they are met with a wall of silence.

and farmers dont have it as easy as you think. try working for 2 months with only 3 hours every nite like every sheep farmer will this spring and be grateful that you can come home from your job at 5 and not have to deal with the fact that your livelyhood is going down the drain and your work prospects for the future are very bleak

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by daveirl

What do you want to see me do about things. Pay More, just so uneconomic operations can continue. Would you pay more for the PC you used to access this site just because the people who made it were inefficient....doubt it!

Thats not the issue, here Dave, you should not have to pay any more for your food.
Farmers are going out of business every day, the same as any unviable company, what those that are left are complaining about, is where this rot is going to stop.
Europe should actually wake up and recognise, how wastefull and ineffecient the CAP is, and replace it with a better targeted, policy to guarantee, safe locally produced food.
In my job, I have came across,huge, super effecient farming enterprises, that are making a very poor return on their assets.
They cannot sell their land, as in most cases the only prospective buyer, is another farmer, whose bank, having looked at their accounts would not sanction the loan.
This country, has , the best climate for food production in Europe, and in the world, bar New Zealand and yet, in present circumstances, even the largest farmers are seeing , their returns fall to such an extent as to make them question, whether, they should be producing this food in the first place.
That is a recipe, in the medium term for disaster, in terms of where the food , you are eating is going to come from.

Incidently, in relation to food prices, there is a cost for producing food under safety regulations which cannot be ignored.
It is unlikely to my mind that, that should be passed on to the consumer, as the real profit takers from food sales in Ireland are the Retail multiples ie, Tesco and the like.
mm

Cork

I don't want to pay more for my food, it's expensive enough as is, and if that means small uneconomic farms go out of business so be it. .

Farmers do not get a lot for their produce. My father buys spuds from a tillage farmer. The farmer sells the spuds to shops as well.

The same bag of spuds is nearly twice the price in the shop.

The difference - retailers margin.

People are spending a pretty low % of their income on food anyway.

I would prefer to buy quality food produced locally than food produced God knows where.

There are few jobs in rural Ireland. Do you expect everybody to go to the cities? The farmers have a good point. They got a great reception in Cork yesterday. I think people admire them for making a stand. I think they have good reason to protest.

Ranch farming is not the answer. I think ranch farming is too intensive. I would prefer my food coming from small/medium farms.

Waylander

I am not convinced that ranch farming is such a bad thing. But hundreds of small farms, none of which can sustain themselves is not the answer either.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
When the tractors went through Cork yesterday – People were delighted one of the social partners was standing up to this government. People see increases in ESB, Telephone Rental, VHI, Bus, and food & drink prices. It is heartening that the IFA are making a stand when many other unions seem to be toothless.

But the farmers want to increase the price of milk. Aren't you applying a double standard?

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by Victor
But the farmers want to increase the price of milk. Aren't you applying a double standard?

That is a misconception, they do not.
They receive much less profit from a litre of milk than the likes of Tesco, and the other multiples.

Indeed a farmer receives abount 27 cent a litre for his/her milk... and out of that he has to pay the costs of producing it now how much do the large stores charge???
The cost of production on the most effecient farms can be about 15 cent a litre, leaving the farmer with only 12 cent per litre.

And in the exceptionally bad weather conditions of the past 12 months, that cost goes way up, which put's those surviving on that poor margin, on almost breaking point.

Basically, the farmer is milking the cows, whilst the multiples are milking him and the consumer for all they can get.

If that situation is allowed to continue, eventually, we will be forced onto UHT milk at times when milk is scarce.
During December and january for instance, already, milk supply only barely meets demand in this country, as many farmers have either been giving up, altogether or switching to summer milk production only, which is less costly.
mm

mike65

The farmers should'nt be driving thier often posh tractors with out of date tax and insurance to Dublin, but the they're victims of a system which is built on madness. Many farmers are not making a penny on the actual business of farming product, for which they are being payed, in real terms, less than 10 years ago. Its only the money from Brussels that keeps them "viable" which means they're plainly not viable at all.

There are far too many farmers, the average farm size is still around 100 acres when 300-400 is required. Perhapes in the long run the best future for farmers is as custodians of the countryside, where they are paid for preservation of the landscape we know and love. That'll require a huge shift in thinking by everyone, farmers are not famously eco friendly at the moment.

The other area that needs attention is what happens to all the money between the price we paid for product in the shops and what farmers are paid by the factories/distributors. Farmers are being paid a pitance and we're paying some of the highest prices in Europe so someone is making a fortune in the middle.

Mike.

[Deleted User]

I agree with all that.
There is so much that needs overhauling in European agriculture, that it's a mammoth task.

For instance,the age structure despite, generous early retirement schemes is still very old-thats not driving any change.

A "young" farmer these days, ie one that owns the farm generally, could be in the fifties or forties.
Now that generation are willing to go out and earn off farm income and come home in the evening and work all hours on their un viable farms...but their sons and daughters aren't.

So I suppose, over time change will have to come, but in the mean time, some alternative structure to the CAP should be put in place to secure locally produced food, and of course the country side.
mm

Originally posted by Man
This country, has , the best climate for food production in Europe, and in the world, bar New Zealand and yet,

I think you will find it may have the best climate/soil for growing grass..food is too general a term to use here.

Cork

It is a hard one to figure but if the ESB or RTE want to charge us more they can apply to the minister to sanction a price increase. The ordinary PAYE worker has got increases under the programme for competitiveness and fairness. Manufacturing companies in our country pay very low rates of corporation tax.

Farmer’s income is determined by market prices. A market where they are very few buyers. We have a number of meat factories, a number of dairies and a number of supermarket multiples.

The margin that these multiples and food companies get from agricultural produce is massive.

When you buy a litre of milk – the farmer gets a tiny fraction of the purchase price. So – Some people contend that we need ranch farms. Some of these would probably buy free-range eggs in the supermarket.

Farm incomes are low. Farmers as a group are being ripped off. They put in massive effort for little reward. There is very little employment outside our larger cities and towns. In fact, I rarely see jeeps in the countryside – many are used in the city by the affluent.

The farmers are being pretty responsible. Only 300 tractors will enter Dublin. This is in marked contrast to the long running despute between ASTi & the Government.

Overall – The farmers are absolutely right. City dwellers might have to put up with minor inconveniences tomorrow but farmers have to put up with much worse 365 days per year.

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by jd
I think you will find it may have the best climate/soil for growing grass..food is too general a term to use here.

Well we have the highest grain yields in the world, used in Bread and beer, two staples of the Irish diet

And that cheap grass feeds cattle and sheep.
Our weather in a normal year, supports Hotriculture, with ample supplies of fruit and Vegatables( although, some of those, eg mushrooms are grown in greenhouses ).
Not to mention all the farms in the country that keep free range ducks and hens.
So there we have it , dairy products, meat,Fruit veg and poultry.

I presume , what you mean, when you say Food is too general a term, that we don't grow rice...?

It was an option considered by many farmers last summer:D
mm

Originally posted by Man
Well we have the highest grain yields in the world, used in Bread and beer, two staples of the Irish diet
And that cheap grass feeds cattle and sheep.

The moisture content can be quite high though

- you have to compare like with like.

tHE vAGGABOND

In most parts of the "real world" the farming moto is "get big or get out"..

Just like most tiny shops, small farms are not viable in this day and age - that does not mean those on those farms have a god given right to handouts...

it means they have to make them viable, by using the land for something else or finding a small corner of the market that needs better supply....

I’m really happy the EU is stopping giving them money for nothing and now people will have to grow up and face the real world (and indeed the common market who have been giving them all this money for years, and they are competing with gigantic farms in France 100 times their size..)

[Deleted User]

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
I’m really happy the EU is stopping giving them money for nothing and now people will have to grow up and face the real world (and indeed the common market who have been giving them all this money for years, and they are competing with gigantic farms in France 100 times their size..)

Actually, the latest E.U proposals, are to give farmers money for nothing, ie pay them the average subsidy that they got, on average over the last 3 years, but they do not have to keep the cattle, grow the grain etc to get them.
It's called "de-coupling".
The farmer would have to farm the same number of acres though, which means, if as most do , he is renting land, he still has to rent the land or get no money!
the rental costs, would eat up most of the subsidy...! How crazy is that then??
Madness.
mm

gurramok

Originally posted by Cork
The farmers are being pretty responsible. Only 300 tractors will enter Dublin.

Why can't they use buses to transport themselves up and have their protests like every other protest group does ???
Bringing tractors is highly irresponsible, the recent blockades by taxis and truckers(not as bad) were rightly condemned by many.

Also as diesel is getting more expensive these days, farmers must have alot of money to travel the length and breadth of country in their '02 tractors !

ykt0di9url7bc3

The system needs changing....

I support the farmers as in I support them if their plans safe-gaurd future farming as a economically viable way of life for these people!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ballooba

They're Coming.....

Cork

Originally posted by gurramok
Why can't they use buses to transport themselves up and have their protests like every other protest group does ???
Bringing tractors is highly irresponsible, the recent blockades by taxis and truckers(not as bad) were rightly condemned by many.

Also as diesel is getting more expensive these days, farmers must have alot of money to travel the length and breadth of country in their '02 tractors !

Well - Farmers are not used of having regular bus services in their areas. In fact public transport in rural Ireland is a disgrace.

The Dublin - Kerry Train service is a disgrace.

Surely, our capital city can cope with 300 tractors coming in 6 directions. If it can't cope it does not say much for our capital.

Cork coped well the other day. But isn't Cork the real capital anyway?

I’m really happy the EU is stopping giving them money for nothing and now people will have to grow up and face the real world (and indeed the common market who have been giving them all this money for years, and they are competing with gigantic farms in France 100 times their size..)

The US gives massive subvention to their farmers. The Irish government gives massive subvention to many of the words major coporations. Farmers at the minute get certain price support - They had a feature on prime time last night that say a loaf of bead in the supermarket - farmers get 7c per loaf. They get 1c from a pint of beer. The excess goes to our manufacturers and retailers.

What alternative have the people of rural Ireland? Are the government prepared to invest in infrastructure in rural Ireland. They are not. The National spacial stratergy notes that certain areas are ear marked for investment - what will become of the other areas?

Would we be happy for our food to be produced in factory farms? I would not. In smaller scale farms - farmers can look after their animals better. Animals can graze in fields as happy as the days are long. But - knocking down our hedgerows to build factory farms?

Also as diesel is getting more expensive these days, farmers must have alot of money to travel the length and breadth of country in their '02 tractors !

Farmers have a right to protest. They need tractors to carry out the business of farming. I am sure some farmers have 02 tractors are some city dwellers have 03 cars. These vehicles may be on lease or borrowed for.

The Farmers are 100% right. I think small family farms are worth preserving. I noticed a sign on a national fast food shop this mrning supporting the IFA in this stance.