Mail rage as anger mounts over An Post letterbox plan

Victor

Is it me or does anyone else have a problem with An Post running a social service? If people want someone to supervise the elderly, let the elderly live with family or in villages / towns / retirement homes.

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Mail rage as anger mounts over An Post letterbox plan
From:The Irish Independent
Wednesday, 8th January, 2003
Grainne Cunningham

A STORM of opposition yesterday followed An Post plans to replace door-to-door deliveries with secure letter boxes outside homes.

The company, in financial crisis, claims the scheme would save it up to €35m a year and speed up deliveries.

But opposition parties were united yesterday in objecting to the plan as increasing the isolation of elderly or housebound people, particularly in rural areas. And Rural Affairs Minister Eamon O Cuiv told Radio One it would be a great tragedy if people from rural areas had to travel long distances to collect mail.

Fine Gael Deputy Fergus O'Dowd said ending door-to-door postal deliveries in rural areas would be a "severe blow" to the elderly, the disabled and the sick.

Fine Gael's Simon Coveney emphasised the supportive role played by the postman in community life. "His or her role as somebody who calls on a regular basis to houses across the parish is one of support as well as postal delivery," he said.

Labour TD, Brian O'Shea said the revelation that An Post had already tendered for 500,000 letter boxes "seemed to have taken the Government by surprise."

Green Party TD, Eamon Ryan said the reduction in service should be offset by the retention of rural post offices on a quid-pro-quo basis.

Meanwhile Independent TD, Marian Harkin called on rural dwellers to make representations to the Commissioner for Communications Regulation to refuse to allow An Post to remove the door-to-door postal service.

The Sligo/Leitrim TD described the proposal as a matter of serious social concern for the people of rural Ireland who were facing ever increasing pressures on their way of life and where they were being pressurised to live.

An Post spokesman John Foley said even if the post box plan is approved, the elderly, infirm or housebound could apply to retain door deliveries.

The public has until the end of the month to lodge any objections with the Commission for Communications Regulation.

sceptre

I just find it a little to believe that people are pushing this in the way that they are. Rather than highlighting the possible inconvenience to old people they're pushing the social contact as one of the main reasons we have postmen at all.

I'd have some sympathy for the idea that some old people genuinely might have difficulty getting to a postbox at the end of their garden or the mile-long road to their house. I really would. In the same way, I'd see a good reason behind keeping many sub post offices open if if they aren't that commercially viable. Might be news to some (I doubt it) but the people who run sub post offices don't get a great deal of money from An Post for providing the service in the first place. Apart from any money they get from transaction fees payable to them, very few of them make 10 grand a year from the flat fee they get from An Post.

This highlighting of the postman as the guy who makes sure that someone's aged relative is in fact still alive though is a comlete red herring. It's not their job. I'm sure some people like (perhaps even rely) on the personal contact between themselves and the postman - I'm sure that quite a few of the postmen like it too (probably not so much that they'd sacrifice half the working day to it if they didn't have to make door deliveries though)

"His or her role as somebody who calls on a regular basis to houses across the parish is one of support as well as postal delivery,"

Er, no it isn't. No really - it isn't. It isn't the job of the postman to check on the well-being of the aged and infirm. Nor is it the job of the milkman, the guy who reads the meter nor the local Eircom tech.

Eamon O Cuiv told Radio One it would be a great tragedy if people from rural areas had to travel long distances to collect mail

Perhaps Ó Cuiv is getting to the point I made above, perhaps he isn't. If he isn't, it's not like people have to travel to their head post office to pick up their mail.

If there is a problem, why so people seem to be highlighting (at least what I would see as) the wrong one?

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
I'd have some sympathy for the idea that some old people genuinely might have difficulty getting to a postbox at the end of their garden or the mile-long road to their house.

You have to ask the question though: "should this person be living alone, six miles from the local doctor / garda station / post office / shop / pub / church?".

mike65

Do we want a broad-based rural society? If so then government run services may have to be willing to run certain aspects of thier
business at a loss. On the post-box issue, its sounds like a receipe for disaster, I'd love to know what dimensions the boxes will be, how they will attached to a wall/fence, how far from the door they will need to be to satisfy an Post, how tamper proof/weather proof
they will be... and proberly a few other things!

On Monday I got a package from amazon of two CDs, the package was about 5 inches wide and over a foot long. Would that fit in the appature? Or require the posty to knock at the door, if so will I be charged extra by an Post for the inconvenience to them?

Mike.

Victor

http://www.anpost.ie/news/show.asp?id=315
http://www.comreg.ie/docs/odtr0295.doc

Originally posted by mike65
Do we want a broad-based rural society?

People do, but I don't - I want a broad-based city, town and village society. Hairdressers and doctors and office workers (commuting who knows what distance to work) shouldn't live half a mile from their nearest neighbour (I can accept it for farmers). My postman can deliver to 72 apartments (perhaps 250+ people) by walking / cycling 200m. Are you are suggesting the postie travel several times that distance to deliver to one house (perhaps 4 people)? And why should "Mr. Rich" (in Suburbia) with his huge driveway get a "better" service than me?

Originally posted by mike65
If so then government run services my have to be willing to run certain aspects of thier business at a loss.

Surely we should be spending the money on things that count (health and other social services), not a semi-personal postal service.

Originally posted by mike65
On the post-box issue, its sounds like a receipe for disaster, I'd love to know what dimensions the boxes will be, how they will attached to a wall/fence, how far from the door they will need to be to satisfy an Post, how tamper proof/weather proof they will be... and proberly a few other things!

Well they seem to work in the rest of the world, including, shock horror **Ireland** (80,000 installed to date).

Originally posted by mike65
how far from the door they will need to be to satisfy an Post

Eh? The issue is how close to the road.

Originally posted by mike65
On Monday I got a package from amazon of two CDs, the package was about 5 inches wide and over a foot long. Would that fit in the appature? Or require the posty to knock at the door, if so will I be charged extra by An Post for the inconvenience to them?

Wouldn't this come under parcel post? And most stuff like this gets signed for anyway.

sunbeam

Personally I wouldn't mind a post-box on our front wall as long as larger packages were still brought in. However, I'm only here on a very temporary basis and my elderly mother who has severe arthritis is unable to walk to the front gate without assistance.

I'm currently living with her in a small village in the west of Ireland. There's about 40 houses, nearly as close together as those on an urban housing estate, but we are 4-10 miles away from most services. We used to have a village shop, but it closed a few years ago. Even masses in our church are restricted to Wednesday mornings, due to lack of priests (a topic for another thread I know). The village population is actually increasing, with a number of young couples buying/building homes, but the majority of people would still be in their sixties or older. Many of the older people don't have access to transport apart from a daily bus, which stops half a mile away.

So how do they survive? Well many services come to or the door-grocery vans, baker, butcher/greengrocer, milkman, dry cleaners etc. Although it is not part of his job, our postman usually hand delivers my mother's various prescription drugs, which our doctor has sent in from the pharmacy to the local post office (simply because she is housebound and a diabetic who lives on her own for most of the time, without transport). Two mobile banks used to come around as well, but have curtailed their routes in recent years. Younger people like me rely heavily on the old Interweb shopping/online banking etc. I once had software FedExed to me which ended up being delivered by the milkman, but that is another story...

As for the idea of eircom tech checking up on elderly people, well the term cold day in hell comes to mind. It usually takes nearly a week for our phone line to be repaired when it (frequently) blows down. My mother has one of those security pendant/phone systems so if she falls she can alert a neighbour to help her up (she can't do this by herself). Do you think explaining this to eircom will get them out to fix the line any faster? Not a hope. It has got to the point where I've bought her a mobile....

apologies for meandering off-topic

sunbeam

BuffyBot

Glad to see An Post coming up with an original idea.

I remember this was brought up a few years back. The house where I lived then would have been affected - I assume it didn't go ahead for many of the reasons being argued about now. I personally doubt it will be any more sucessful this time than the last - but we will wait and see.

As for prefering everyone living in "a broad-based city, town and village society" - not everyone does. Some people live rurally out of choice (which, yes I know, is their choice) - but many live where they and their familys always have lived. Why should they be penalised just because they live in isolated areas?

jd

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Why should they be penalised just because they live in isolated areas?

Well things change. If the government wants to continue to provide services (roads,gas,water,sewage,telecomunications,electricity,mail) to dispersed homesteads, it will cost money. The question is who should pay, and is it worth it. If An Post is to continue to provide this service, the government should pay them for it.

Waylander

I think the idea is good, particularly if the old and infirmary can apply to have to the door delivery. Mike I do not mean to be critical but it seems to me that you want to have issues with this suggestion. What are the dimensions of your letterbox? Anything bigger then two CD's would not fit in anyway.

Maybe these postboxes should be stuck in the local pub. Nearly all members of the community make it in there at least once on a weekly basis.

Borzoi

Originally posted by Victor
.....I want a broad-based city, town and village society.....

Interesting point, a few years back I did a lot of driving around the B routes of Germany. It was a bit of an eye opener, as someone who is used to the general spread of houses dotted about the countryside, there was none of that. People, everybody, lived in towns, villages which were quite compact. In between the towns were fields and roads - no houses. No bungalow blight!

People in this country have chosen to live outside of established communities - why should we support their decision to isolate themselves?

seamus

My only real issue with this is the one of security, mainly in Dublin.....

How will you know if you have mail? Will it be like America, where the postman sticks up the little flag? You can just see all the little scumbags going up to boxes with mail in them, robbing the mail, and taking money/merchandise out of it, or just ripping it up or burning it for the fun. Maybe it'll have a lock on it....D'oh I should think first .

It probably does allow for little scumbags to mess with them, but probably no worse than it already is with them throwing **** into people's letterboxes

Meh

Originally posted by seamus
My only real issue with this is the one of security.....

An Post plans to replace door-to-door deliveries with secure letter boxes outside homes.

seamus

Originally posted by Meh
......

Yes, yes I realised it halfway through posting, and couldn't be arsed deleting it.

Gets two thumbs up from me tbh

Victor

Originally posted by BuffyBot
As for prefering everyone living in "a broad-based city, town and village society" - not everyone does. Some people live rurally out of choice (which, yes I know, is their choice) - but many live where they and their familys always have lived. Why should they be penalised just because they live in isolated areas?

These people get to buy cheaper housing, don't have to deal with congestion and all to often are doing this to convenience themselves at the expense of others ... shouldn't there be a quid pro quo.

tHE vAGGABOND

I think the image of the postman as someone who calls into everyone and has a cup of tea is outdated and oldfashioned to be honest..

Its just people in politics point scoring...

I bet i f An Post said they were loosing €50 million quid a year and wanted more money the same people would giving out if the government gave them more money.

RainyDay

These people get to buy cheaper housing, don't have to deal with congestion and all to often are doing this to convenience themselves at the expense of others ... shouldn't there be a quid pro quo.

Dead right, Victor. It amazes me that rural dwellers are happy to take the reduced property prices that come with the territory, but are fiercly resistant to paying proportionately for associated services. If we have to pay huge Dublin house prices, then the rural dwellers should be paying extra to An Post & other services to cover the additional costs of providing services.

mike65

Victor, just as a point of info, the CDs arrived by normal post.

On the wider issues, I would prefere to see ppl "on the land"
though not "here there and everywhere, bungalow blitz style".
In parts of Scotland they managed to use thier wit and combine postal deliveries with a local bus service.

On security, I can imagine every petty thief and dope fiend
in the land licking thier lips at all the oppotunites for nicking
anything that looks worth something. Those boxes wont stand a chance against someone with a beefy screwdriver and a hammer.

Mike.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Victor
These people get to buy cheaper housing, don't have to deal with congestion and all to often are doing this to convenience themselves at the expense of others ... shouldn't there be a quid pro quo.

So if everyone moves into towns, drives up the property prices and worsens the traffic congestion..that'll make it all better?

jd

Originally posted by BuffyBot
So if everyone moves into towns, drives up the property prices and worsens the traffic congestion..that'll make it all better?

Doesn't necessarily have to be a town..villages would be ok

Waylander

On the security issue, I think that they have scumbags in the states too lads and the post box idea comes from there. Lets face it if someone wants to rob your post that badly they will get it whether it is stuck in a letterbax or in a secure box in your garden.

Victor

Originally posted by BuffyBot
So if everyone moves into towns, drives up the property prices and worsens the traffic congestion..that'll make it all better?

No. The cost of building houses would fall; it is cheaper to build 10 houses in a village than ten in the countryside. It would actually lessen congestion because villages could have more services - shops, pubs, doctors, buses and the like. It requires a complete mind change from the traditional Irish pattern.

gurramok

Originally posted by Waylander
On the security issue, I think that they have scumbags in the states too lads and the post box idea comes from there. Lets face it if someone wants to rob your post that badly they will get it whether it is stuck in a letterbax or in a secure box in your garden.

In urban areas it would be a problem for many including myself
If postbox is outside the house instead of 'inside' as in case it is now, it is a hell alot safer inside.
Even the car and wheelie bin is not safe in many housing estates from scumbags attacking them on a daily basis.
Anything that is situated outside the front door especially at end of driveway is not secure because its 'out of view and isolated' be it the esb box/gas box.
If the postbox was nearer the front door instead of at gate and was so-called secure as An Post state then my objection would be smaller.

Victor

Originally posted by gurramok
If the postbox was nearer the front door

Which would defeat the whole purpose of the exercise. :rolleyes:

Victor

It looks like comreg have knocked it on the head, which is a shame. Why should (poor) flat dwellers subsidise (rich) people with long driveways. I'd liek there to be at least the option of boxes.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/726072?view=Eircomnet

An Post forced to continue door-to-door deliveries
From:ireland.com
Tuesday, 13th May, 2003

An Post cannot force its customers to use roadside letter boxes, the Communications Regulator said this evening.

In a cost cutting measure, the postal company had proposed the introduction of post boxes at the edge of properties or some distance away. However, in a statement this evening, ComReg said "there is currently no provision in law" allowing An Post to go ahead with the initiative.

ComReg said An Post could offer to provide the post boxes, but customers would not be obliged to accept them nor would they be obliged to use them.

"While there clearly are merits in roadside letterboxes, and many people have installed them on their own initiative, ComReg notes that vulnerable groups such as the elderly and the disabled, who depend on delivery to the front door, should be protected," the regulator said.

An Post reacted angrily saying the ruling could mean price increases.

"It is quite astonishing that the detailed economic arguments, which accompanied our submission to ComReg, have been completely ignored in ComReg's rejection of our proposal," the company said.

"Even at this stage, it is clear that we cannot avoid a further price increase application which might involve higher prices for rural deliveries."

The chairman of the Dáil Communications Committee Mr Noel O'Flynn welcomed the ComReg decision saying it ensured the continuation of door-to-door deliveries.

"While there may be some merits in outdoor letterboxes the Dáil Communications Committee will encourage An Post to explore in greater detail other cost cutting possibilities," he said.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Glad to see An Post coming up with an original idea.

I remember this was brought up a few years back. The house where I lived then would have been affected - I assume it didn't go ahead for many of the reasons being argued about now. I personally doubt it will be any more sucessful this time than the last - but we will wait and see.

I had a funny feeling about this one..

dmeehan

im in favour of this

i think people are exagerating the proposal;
not everyone was going to be given a postbox

it was mainly for people in rural areas, this excludes villages in rural areas, its just for people that live a long distance from their nearest neighbour!

People who live in an estate with a driveway long enough for 1 car where not getting post boxes, i think it was for people who live at the end of a (long) lane etc.


well thats my understanding of it anyway

Sparks

it was mainly for people in rural areas, this excludes villages in rural areas, its just for people that live a long distance from their nearest neighbour!

So because you live a long way from anyone, you have to walk a long way to get your mail.
Well, okay.... but if so, you get to pay less for posting letters to addresses where this applies - after all, the postman doesn't have to do as much work, right?

Victor

Originally posted by Sparks
So because you live a long way from anyone, you have to walk a long way to get your mail. Well, okay.... but if so, you get to pay less for posting letters to addresses where this applies - after all, the postman doesn't have to do as much work, right?

See attached sketch. As it stand the house on the left costs a lot more to deliver to. An Post want to rectify that.

jd

It was a cop out by comreg.
The blunt fact is the government can't have it both ways-if an post is to operate as a commercial entity it should be allowed operate as one. The fact that Granny smith gets 1 letter a week which an post delivers up her remote boreen at a cost to An post of 1 euro (say) vs price of stamp 40c., but provides a social benefit to granny smith should be a no brainer for an-post(commercially). An Post is not a social service-if it's Granny Smiths only human contact during the week, well gee, its a dept of health and a community issue, not something that is cured by 5 seconds chat to the postman.
My view is that the mailboxs should be free, but if people want human contact, let them pay say 200e a year for doorstep delivery.the government pays for the deserving cases.
And as I said before , if you want to build your house 5 miles up some dirt track, enjoy the view-I don't see why I should help pay for it though..