Bovril Lavigne

It wasn't me!

My brother was really infatuated with her for a while but he's realised his ways now and is back on the right track.

Nirvana were as big as they were because people at the yime were beginning to finally get sick of Michael Jackson and were starting to look for something new to worship. Nirvana just happened to release Nevermind at just the right time.

Karl Hungus

Originally posted by Doodee
as for all this bollix aboutimage, well im sorry ken, but Black Metal is all about image, if it wasnt wouldnt they just wear ordinary clothes and not be associated to specific colours or looks.
Just like slip knot, just like teh spice girls, just like blink 182, just like any punk bands, punk rockers, boy bands.
The image is there solely for the mercendise.

Explain to me how its for the merchandise, if every single Black Metal band looked the same?

Now, I say 'Looked' as in past tense, as there are very few bands these days that still use the Corpse/War Paint. Because what I was refering to is how Black Metal was at the time in the early 90s.

Today, looking at 'Modern' Black Metal it's obviously very different. But the same principles lie in the so called 'Image'. Just taking the Thorns album for example, there is no picture of any band member, and they never tour, so it's literaly impossible for them to have an image. Just as it was in the early days of BM, where they all had a single, unified look, and they all took stage names. Obviously it was pretty impossible then for any band in the scene to have an 'Image' without any kind of gimmick.

No gimmick = No image.

That's where bands like Slipknot and Mudvayne differ is the fact that they all have these gimmicks. Each band member with their own individual look. So each band is very clearly unique, and hence a marketable image.

In Black Metal there wasn't anything image-related that one band had, that another didn't. So there was simply nothing to market. And there usually ISN'T anything to market.

So again, nothing to market = No Image.

I also found it ironic that you say if it wasn't about image, they'd just wear oridinary clothes. But a good example would be the Death Metal band Cryptopsy, who have a huge, and very clear, recognisable image. Why is this? Because they just went out on stage and played wearing a load of Umbro tracksuits. And they were quite famed for doing so.

Doodee

Ahh yes ken, so u think it isnt merchandising that ppl will go out and spend €250 on a pair of neurocks? (or however they spell it)

or the fact, that all their clothes are black, associated with the dress code.

If u wanna talk about mass marketing then ur talking about kiss, but all I'm refering to is the typical dress code, just like what was said, Avril lavigne doesnt skate, but she likes to wear skater clothes/ punk rock.
Same as the black metalists round the central bank, or the Sliknot hoddiers.

and because of this dress code is why Cryptopsy or korn made it different.
They wore trackies and all of a sudden their creating an influence.

fact remains, the music u play is one thing, but your record company will always endorse u sporting a particular look, it sells things. even long black leather trench coats.

Karl Hungus

Frankly, if you pay 250 yoyos for a pair of New Rock (That's the correct spelling btw) you deserve to be hit with them.

Got mine for 100 in a sale, and I'd probably never pay more than that for any pair of boots.


Also, this is getting a little off-topic...
So lets keep this short, Doodee.

But quite frankly, you're clutching at straws there, tbh.
I've a load of videos here that I can show you of BM bands, and in most, they're not wearing new rocks at all. Only one I can think of is the Mayhem vid. Besides, everyone has new rocks these days. From ravers, to kids, to anyone. It's nothing to do with Black Metal.

Also, there are NO Black Metal people hanging around the central bank that I've ever seen! But I find it again, rather ironic, that the only band that comes close to BM in that sense would be Cradle of Filth, and they're more on par with Slipknot these days, and they've got a sponcership with New Rock. With Dani Filth being marketed as an alternative to Marylin Manson.

Which brings us full circle again, seeing as 5 or 6 years ago, you'd not be able to tell CoF apart from the Scandinavian crowd, but now it's not a band any more, because they've taken this one person, and made a gimmick, and an image from him, as well as a near complete change in style of music!

But bottom line is, new-rocks aren't a trend of Black Metal.
I mean, were they even around back then!?
I dont recall so...

And quite frankly, most forms of Metal is associated with Black Dress. In fact, Johnny Cash dresses black!

So, seriously Doodee.
You're clutching at straws with your arguement there.


Now, this is seriously dragging the thread off topic, so if you want, please make a new topic where we can discuss this in particular. Ok?

Doodee

Ken, I never based my whole arguement on New Rocks, I simple made an example.
and u admitted it yerself

And quite frankly, most forms of Metal is associated with Black Dress. In fact, Johnny Cash dresses black!

therefor, there is an image, a style, by which the standard is set,

par example, u wouldnt recognise a BM'er if u alked around the central bank and they werent going by the rules of the dress code.

Every Genre has to have a look apart from the sound, that how they are identified.
And in all honesty Ken, I have seen my fair share of Blackmetalers round the central bank,
and just to pop this in before u respond, I live and Werk up here, so I walk past the central bank morning noon and night, and I still see em, they aint wearing slipknot hoodies or t-shirts, they are wearing various other black metal stuff, aswell as leather trench coats, and yes New Rocks.

Just cause a load of bands videos dont have them wearing new rocks, doesnt mean that they, or any1 else in BM doesnt wear them.


stupid werk, have lost my train of thought!

Karl Hungus

Ok, so you're going from saying that Black Metal is a genre based on image, and saying that this influences merchandicing, ect. To saying that the bands themselves dont have to influence the fans... Do you even have an arguement!?

And leather trench-coats aren't a black metal invention either.
This was started in the 80's by Goth-Rock band 'Fields Of The Nephilim' who had a very strong image which was very much based on the western movies, and they came on stage in a whole cowboy motif, all dusted down, with long coats. This is where the trench-coat came into rock music, and of course, despite 'The Fields' not being a metal band in any stretch of the imagination, it found its way into metal. And it most certainly isn't a creation of BM.

The Nephilim
In case you need proof.

And these guys preceded Black Metal, by a good number of years.
And that's where the coat came from.

But its a very popular idea these days, especially with kids who've just watched the matrix, or blade, and ran out to ask Mommy & Daddy to get them a coat for some ridiculous amount of money. And again, it's a pretty general thing with most metal, and goth music, and while BM'ers would wear one, it's not a trait of BM whatsoever.

In fact, have a look at this pic of Euronymous (RIP) of Mayhem from about 1993.

Leather Jacket, badges... I'm pretty sure that if it wasn't for the corpsepaint, you wouldn't be able to tell him apart from any Sex Pistols/Motorhead/The Damned fan.

So quite frankly, your detuction of Leather Trench-Coats + New Rocks = Black Metal is complete pish-posh tosh of the highest calibre.

And furthermore, I dont care if you work in the area, and you see people with New Rocks or whatever, because you probably wouldn't know what Black Metal looks like if it came up and bit you in the face. Because there is simply no set image, uniform or whatever you want to say there is anymore. And my first arguement on the subject was that Black Metal was probably the closest thing you could get to anti-image, seeing that every band in the Norwegian scene in the early days of black metal, in fact did have something that was pretty 'Uniform' and it was a singular image.

And again, I shall say 'Furthermore' and trounce on with another point... Black Metal bands today can look like anything, and here's proof of that:

Jason Mendonca from London Death/Black Metal band Akercocke. And they were a pretty popular band, who had pretty big sucsess with the release of their second album 'The Goat Of Mendes' in 2001. Or at least 'popular' as far as Black Metal goes.

So quite frankly, if your arguement was sound, and Black Metal was as you put it "All about image." And if it did infact, influence peoples image, as you say... And if there were as you say, a fair shair of BM'ers around the central bank... Then why dont I ever recall seeing guys in suits moping about there? Or maybe you, in your both living and working in the area, see many a person in a Tuxedo, or Dinner Jacket every day! Moping about, and hoping about on their skateboards...

But, despite the fact, that in the extreme metal circuit, Akercocke were very popular... I doubt that you, or at least 99% of the kids around temple bar/central bank, have ever heard of them.

Now, I know I'm dragging the thread completely off-topic and all, but it is pretty much dead as it is, and nobody's posting has really been disturbed... I think it'll be ok if I just let this drift off back into the rubble when I'm done.

All you're doing is clutching at straws, about something you know next to nothing about.



Although, with all that said...

...we've all seen Dav in a tux, many a time!

Perhaps he's secretly a huge Black Metal fan?!

The Reaper

yeahie for goth-rock!!!!!!!!!!

avril reminds my girlfriend of someone i was with dat my gf hates
and wen ever my girl hears one of avrils songs she get really annoyed with me so ive a much more reason now to hate dat cow avril lavigne! da bítch! ( i was with dis other person b4 i was goin with my gf, just incase some of u taut i did the dirt)

Doodee

Omg ken, u've just done it again havent u, it shows how feable this is becoming , I didnt base my whole arguement on ****ing leather trench coats, read the post again, U'll clearly read and I quote "

they are wearing various other black metal stuff, aswell as leather trench coats, and yes New Rocks.

Notice, that word there, what is it again, o yea, ASWELL.

If any1 is clutching to straws its u, u spout up what you know on the history of black metal and try say that it isnt image based, when u uerself said, and I quote again

And quite frankly, most forms of Metal is associated with Black Dress. In fact, Johnny Cash dresses black!

I aint clutching to no ****ing straws there mate.

and tbh, i dont see many ppl in Tuxedo's skateboarding round there, cause that would be considerably stupid, if u think about it really hard, a Tux doesnt give u the freedom of movement needed to ****ing skateboard, so please dont try drag this conversation down into a little Juvy pissing contest!

I never said that every band that has ever done black metal or become popular in the scene has followed the dress code, I said that the majourity of the main stream bands, that are there to sell records and also merchandise, do.
Fact remains that U identify slipknot fans by calling them skaters with hoodies, but try to disregard your own genre in an attempt to make it seem as the all mighty. I'm afraid that about 60-70% of the population would probably class ppl wearing metals t-shirts, long black leather, or black leather of any sort, and massive boots same as new rocks as a metaler/Black Metaler.
And also, if u didnt notice, in the Matrix and blade, they were not wearing a ****ing Black metal T-Shirt under those massive trench coats, Neo was wearing an army style Sweater/polo neck (My memory aint too great cause its been a while) and Trinity was wearing a black leather combat suit.
Therefor i dont go thinking that Neo was a Black metaler just cause he wore a ****ing black leather coat.

Jeebus, u should really read over what i say twice.

Karl Hungus

You *ARE* clutching at straws!

And you completely and totally miss just about every point I am making. So try not to be telling me to read the whole thing again, when you clearly missed out on so much. And the fact that you keep quoting something that completely debunks your own arguement in your defense, is a clear sign of that.

In your arguement you pointed out that:

Ahh yes ken, so u think it isnt merchandising that ppl will go out and spend €250 on a pair of neurocks? (or however they spell it)
or the fact, that all their clothes are black, associated with the dress code.

You were saying that Black Clothes = Black Metal.

And my point is that:

And quite frankly, most forms of Metal is associated with Black Dress. In fact, Johnny Cash dresses black!

Now if you cant see the relevance of that, it's clearly YOU who needs to read things again.

Because quite frankly, you're saying that black metal is identified by the things you've pointed out, implying that these things are solely a black metal identification/image. Which I have strongly pointed out THAT THEY ARE NOT.


Next point...

they are wearing various other black metal stuff, aswell as leather trench coats, and yes New Rocks.

---

Notice, that word there, what is it again, o yea, ASWELL.

Ok, sarcastro...
Notice the fact there, what is it again? Oh yeah! YOU DIDN'T EVEN POINT OUT WHAT THESE VARIOUS OTHER THINGS ARE?!?!


So, we've established that:

1. New Rocks aren't solely a trait of BM.
2. Leather Trench-Coats aren't solely a trait of BM.
3. Black Clothes aren't solely a trait of BM.

And finally, I think that we've established the most important point that:
Anyone into any form of metal could be wearing any of the above.

You with me so far?


Now, next point:

And also, if u didnt notice, in the Matrix and blade, they were not wearing a ****ing Black metal T-Shirt under those massive trench coats, Neo was wearing an army style Sweater/polo neck (My memory aint too great cause its been a while) and Trinity was wearing a black leather combat suit.
Therefor i dont go thinking that Neo was a Black metaler just cause he wore a ****ing black leather coat.

Now seeing as you totaly, completely, and utterly missed my point... Let me go through it again:

1. Films like Blade/The Matrix made certain aspects of dress popular, eg:
2: Leather Trench Coats
3: New Rocks/Big Boots
4: Black Clothes

So, can you see where I'm going with this?

Now, I have established something here:
That there is a much more plausable 'Inspiration' for the way people around the central bank dress. Seeing as there are movies, that would reach billions more people, as opposed to small underground record companies like Osmose, Nocturnal Arts, No Fasion, Deathlike Silence, Etc...


So... Next point!

Fact remains that U identify slipknot fans by calling them skaters with hoodies, but try to disregard your own genre in an attempt to make it seem as the all mighty. I'm afraid that about 60-70% of the population would probably class ppl wearing metals t-shirts, long black leather, or black leather of any sort, and massive boots same as new rocks as a metaler/Black Metaler.

I could completely debunk this entire point with 4 words:
Seadna Wears New Rocks.

But I'll go a bit further than that...
I'd say that most of the population has no idea of what BM is. So your deduction of 60-70% of the identifying that, is complete twaddle... The fact is, that 100% of the time, any sly-words from passers-by that I get is usualy along the lines of "****ing Hippie/Mosher!" and one time "Clint Eastwood!" So, by my actual experience, there's not one person out there who knows, or can identify Black Metal.

So, I really hope you do get my point now?

Because, it's clearly established now that:

You have failed to identify 1 single trait that could be considered solely belong to Black Metal.

Therefor, your entire arguement is non-existant.

Fact is, that anything you've claimed to be a product of Black Metal, could EASILY be anything else in Metal or Rock, and has already been established LONG before Black Metal even existed. Therefor, your deduction that Black Metal is "All About Image" is nonsense.

And clearly, the only thing that identified Black Metal in the early scene was the corpsepaint, and nothing else. Which was something that all the bands in the early scene did, and there was very little way to tell one band apart from another, therefor it was as close to anti-image as was possible, and in many cases, Black Metal is STILL very anti-image, what with the amount of bands that remain in near complete animosity, with no pics ever available, so there is STILL an inherent idea that, we dont know what these guys look like whatsoever! Just as back in the early scene, you wouldn't know what any of them looked like in the corpsepaint.


Now, for my final thought...
The only thing that is in any way considered 'Merchandising' would be the CDs/T-Shirts. And the fact that simply every single rock or metal band on the planet has t-shirts, makes it clearly a null-point!

And I'm pretty sure, that in your idea of what black metal is, (Which I've clearly debunked) you wouldn't be able to identify a black metal t-shirt from a death/thrash/grind/whatever t-shirt.

So... Sorry if I'm repeating myself again...
But there is still NOTHING that could be attributed to Black Metal that COULDN'T be attributed to pretty much, any other form of metal, rock, or even punk.


JP, you owe me 20 minutes of my life back for writing all that crap.

Oeneus

Will this thread ever die?!!!:o

Karl Hungus

I think a 3 page reply is as good as locking it...

Littletinyman

I'm of the opinion that both AngelWhore and Doodee are wrong in every way and should f*ck off and die so that nobody else has to read to their inane ramblings

ThenComesDudley

but im miles of the point here.
But Angel you say that there are BM band who wont tour and release pictures of themselves? Couldnt this be used as an image? As fan (not all) could say these bands are better cus there so hardcore underground that no one sees them.
This could be seen by many as an image.

Karl Hungus

If you want to broaden the scope to that level, Dudley, then I suppose.

But I'm sure you'll agree that it's nothing like the whole Nu-metal idea of 'Selling an image' is it? It's still not exactly selling anything other then the music, and I've never even seen a Red Harvest, or Thorns t-shirt. Just two bands that dont show any pictures of themselves on albums, although I do think Red Harvest tour.

Another example, I could give, is Australian Death-Grinders 'The Berzerker' who wear masks. Not like Slipknot's masks, but very monster-like ones, as apposed to Clown/Pig/Whatever masks. They're not credited on any albums, they're completely anonymous, and they've no pics of themselves on the website without their masks that haven't their faces blacked-out. So basically, these guys could pretty much look like anything.

But!
Anyone could easily recognise the band, despite the non-credit, and no "Real" pictures. One look at any pic of them onstage/in their masks and people can say "Oh! That's The Berzerker, clearly!"

I'd say that if you can easily recognise a band, or tell them apart from another, that's an image.

ThenComesDudley

Originally posted by AngelWhore
I'd say that if you can easily recognise a band, or tell them apart from another, that's an image.

Does that mean all bands have to sound the same so that they dont put out an image of themselves?

Karl Hungus

Dont be pedantic, you know what I mean.

ThenComesDudley

Pedantic.. well ok ,

but Pot kettle Black?


But on topics like this i think it has togo that far.