Young Scientist ot Year - ya wha ?

davej

but to patent his software that features many Microsoft-made (or other) components is a more than a little dodgy if you

I think you've misunderstood something here. Software is never really patented (it's copyrighted). Algorithms and such can be patented, so I'd imagine he's patented a small "clever" part of his program.

davej

ozmo1

>but if he didn't get a license from Microsoft for use of their Media >Player for the DVD player that is

Just two points:

1. Microsoft allow you to make software applications which use parts of its applications as components to your application. They give lots samples how to do it and SDK(Software Development Kits) available free from their website (msdn.microsoft.com etc). You can for instance put Video Conferencing very easily in an application by using only a window from NetMeeting and adding your own buttons etc. (I've done this in 10 lines of J++ code) Same with Media Player - As long as you ship Netmeeting, Media Player, Adobe Acrobat etc with your application you can use just bits of it.
Licences vary - but generally, they say you must install the Whole applicaiton ie. All Media Player not not just enough of the dlls to make what you want to work.

Its not 'real' programming, kind of like HTML scripting, except with components - but there is no problem with any of this (until the client upgrades eg. Acrobat reader or upgrades to MsOffice 11 - and your application doesnt work anymore!). Very often done for in-house company projects (eg a comany IT department).

2. Its unlikely it was a patent on the whole application. Its more likely it will have been for something very specific. Like the inner workings of his algorithim. Or for a new twist on something old.
He will have to have shown that it
(a) is a new idea that has not been covered by a previous patent or an improvment on a previous patent.
(b) that he has not discussed it with anyone or shown it to anyone prior to applying for the patent.

Thats my uptake on what I have read anyway.

US Patents searchable database here: Some really strange stuff
patented in here!
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

ozmo1

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

naitkris

there is an article in today's Irish Times written by Karlin Lillington which is also available at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/stories/2003/01/24/competitorPutsJudgesToTheTest.html that does go over some issues. however, despite all the explanations I think most of us with programming experience are still doubtful until we can see the program (and perhaps the source code?) for ourselves...

what bothers me is that the computer science researcher and lecturer who went over his program seems to only have "talked to the student and got a much better feeling for what he'd done" and of course seen the program in work, rather then go through the source code bit by bit with the kid and ask him questions as to what pieces of his code does exactly - only that way can you prove it is 100% his work. maybe the researcher did this, but i have failed to read this anywhere as of yet. if he has gone through the source code with the kid next to him, then i will have very few questions left to ask.

i mean, anyone with enough programming experience in a certain programming language can easily bull**** to a lecturer teaching only java programming or whatever language he specialises in or another programmer not too familiar with Borland C++. if i had to sit down with the programmer and go through the "science" of the source code then that's a little bit trickier i guess you can imagine.

don't get me wrong, i believe the kid wrote the inner workings of the program, but the fact that he's keeping quiet about it and "patenting" it (thus the reason not to show anyone, even a judge the source code) makes me wonder if something else is up.

congrats to Adnan anyway, it's just that it's very strange he has no web presence at all, he could at the very least have a small web page about the program, even if he is not going to let people download it. you'd think a piece of software with everything to do with the web would have a web site.

jmcc

Originally posted by davej
I think you've misunderstood something here. Software is never really patented (it's copyrighted). Algorithms and such can be patented, so I'd imagine he's patented a small "clever" part of his program.

I don't think there is a provision for software patents and patenting algorithms rather than processes can be extremely difficult. At most copyright legislation may protect the expression of the algorithm (the program) rather than the algorithm. However copyright exists from the point of creation and there is a more fundamental argument here: is the work a derivative work?

A derivative work is one that draws heavily on a previous work. Given that the XWEBS browser uses Microsoft and possibly Borland libraries, the key issue would be to isolate the innovative part of the program. Then the innovative part has to be checked against existing patents and it looks like the US patents would be the ones it will be checked against. The key issue is whether the innovative part of the program is actually new. Remember these people who judged it and indeed many of the people commenting on it probably never bothered to check the US patents database for similar or identical processes or systems.

I think that Karlin's dismissal of people who commented that the academics/researchers/industry scientists may be 'out of touch' is funny. The reason for this is that none of the academics/researchers/industry scientists quoted there seem to be directly involved in web development or related programming. (Process engineering is Material Science rather than Computer Science as far as I think.) Someone working with the web on a daily basis (and has to pay their own phonebill for internet services) is probably far better equipped to judge on whether a technique is radically new.

Even a server admin using mod_gzip on Apache would probably be enough to amaze some academics. The standard of proof in technology is somewhat higher than that required for ordinary non-technical journalism.

Regards...jmcc

---

Interesting US Patents:
6,507,872 Geshwind
Class of methods for improving perceived efficiency of end-user interactive access of a large database such as the world-wide web via a communication network such as "The
Internet"
6,502,175 Krishnan ,et al.
"Method and apparatus for locating caches in a network to optimize performance "

drrnwbb

its made it to wired.

http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,57393,00.html

dw

parasite

pictures : http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/stories/2003/01/28/screenShotsFromAdnanOsmanisWebBrowser.html

GUI

this thread is still going? :-)

naitkris

Originally posted by GUI_XP
this thread is still going? :-)

Looks like the thread is only getting started as thanks to parasite's post we now have a "sneak peak" of his browser. I say "sneak peak" as screenshots do nothing for me, as it is the programs usage we all want to see. Anyway, a lot of our assumptions and guesses can perhaps be laid to rest as we now have something to go by - which is why we probably should have waited for something like this from the beginning before throwing out statements.

Finally, some 2 or more weeks after the awards we get to see some of the program for ourselves, and I am not impressed to say the least (I was expecting something more I guess). "X Webs" logo is Microsoft's "X" in "Xbox" copied it seems (copyright infringement here? I do think, the "X" in Xbox is copyrighted or at least a trademark). I think it's copied anyway, as the "X" looks very very similar to Microsoft's.

Of the 4 screenshots given, none show us the "web browser" with a web page in it - it seems from the screenshots the emphasis of "X Webs" is more on "broadband video" (??? - we're in Ireland, come on!), the DVD player, Phoebe the cartoon character and also, by far the worst thing of any browser, being "offline". I would have thought he could have included a screenshot of the browser browsing a web page perhaps, or do web browsers no longer do such a thing anymore? The way a browser displays a web page is of huge importance and it is very bad not to show a screenshot of a program doing it's principle task.

In 3 of the 4 screenshots, I have noticed that in the bottom righthand corner it says "Online mode", however none of the 3 screenshots show anything taken from online (i.e. a web page etc.), but in fact, 2 screenshots say that xwebs is "offline" - to me that is the funniest thing of my day today! An online browser that is actually offline, maybe that is what he is tying to patent? So the 6x increase must be how fast you can display web pages stored "offline".

Also, playing the video, it shows "WINDOWSMEDIA.COM" in the top bar of the player which funnily enough, is what it also says when one uses Windows Media Player, strange that? The "Media bars" in the top of "X Webs" also uses Microsoft's Windows Media Player logo.

Personally, I think the only reason he released the screenshots is because of the intense debate on forums such as this one and media interest. By releasing screenshots he puts a lot of our questions to bay and a few answers to the whole thing. Thus, less hassle from journalists and others wanting more info about this mysertious browser. So those that doubted him are now either proved wrong or right (depending on your view) and so there is no need for a debate!

The last sentence from above can be taken differently and I personally would like to see more debate on it now that we have something to go by instead of putting it to rest just when it starts to get interesting.

LizardKing

No doubt the X in X webs is ripped from X box , however I think it looks quite well , phoebe looks like a South Park character ( I would hope theres a way to turn Phoebe off permanently)

All we need know is someone to post a demo and I'll be happy

eth0_

He also said he allowed 300 downloads of the program from his site, yet doesn't give the URL for his site. I'm still suspicious. I think karlin is too nice for her own good

pickarooney

The browser is supposed to be fully skinnable, so the screenshots are probably from some X-box themed skin. Given his technical orientation, Osmani is probably no great shakes graphics-wise (nobody's perfect), so probably knocked it together from a few bitmaps. That said, the screenshots don't show much at all, so it's difficult to conclude. The only thing I personally conclude is that he's
(a) managed to write a fantastic program or better yet
(b) convinced a panel of experts that he has done (a), which to
me is even more impressive, and more likely to lead to untold wealth and fame.

ozmo1

Originally posted by parasite
pictures : http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/stories/2003/01/28/screenShotsFromAdnanOsmanisWebBrowser.html

There is also an interview associated with the images above that is not quite obvious to get to from the above link -

http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/stories/2003/01/28/browsingHisWayToTheTop.html

Note: Here Karlin (her site) has a few things to say about the posters to this forum...

longword

Originally posted by ozmo1
Note: Here Karlin (her site) has a few things to say about the posters to this forum...

Karlin misses the point that much of our unhappiness has been leveled not at Osmani but at the sheer lack of information, and worse misinformation from media coverage and the Young Scientist competition itself. Initial incredible line count claims of 1.5 million dropped to 750,000, and now to 200,000. We were all interested in this new speedup mechanism, discussed on a national prime-time TV show, which to this day remains a mystery.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cherrio

Even from the screen shoots you can tell that alot of work went into creating it. While yes most of the code is just patched together still impressive.

He probably is just using simultaneous downloads which has been done before

Accelerated Downloads: WS_FTP Pro 7.6 enables you to accelerate the download of large files by implementing multi-part downloads to maximize the use of your time and increase productivity.

This is particularly effective when downloading large files from an FTP server that limits bandwidth per connection. In that case WS_FTP maximizes bandwidth utilization and increases performance.

The Multi-part download feature allows WS_FTP Pro to split a large file (recommended for file size over 1MB) into multiple parts and use multiple transfer connections to download those parts simultaneously. These parts are recombined into a single file upon receipt.

Example: user’s maximum bandwidth is 150KBps, and they connect to FTP server with a bandwidth limit of 50KBps per connection. In this case WS_FTP Pro raises the total throughput by 300%!

Quote from the features section of WS_FTP (http://www.ws-ftp.com)

I still would find it highly unlikely that he has actual found (invented!) something 'new'. more likely just pulling already available features into a single package.

Should he have won "Young Scientist of the Year": in my opinion, no.
Should he have won "Young Programmer of the Year": Yes, with out a doubt.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cherrio

"Computer Scientist", never heard that one before.

I think Scientist infers some association with one of the 3 sciences. I would think programmer / programming guru / software developer would be a more apt description. Any way, that’s only semantics.

My point still stands, he doesn’t seem to have ‘invented’ any thing. Merely pooled available products together (which is a feat in itself).

Woden

"Computer Scientist, never heard that one before."

i don't see why not people who study computer science i would presume are computer scientists while people who study science are scientists. Make sense to me.

personally i think it looks fairly crap, but then again i could never have done it.

LizardKing

Anyone with a degree in computers will probably have a Bachelor of Science in computing or Bsc. (Comp) Degree ....

"Computer Science" is a pretty well known term if you think about A.I , Machine Learning , Neural Nets etc. etc. it does get quite a bit deeper than being able to write a few scripts / web pages

cherrio

Yes, every course that I know of is a "Bachelor of Science". But I am a programmer myself and certainly would not consider myself a Scientist.

Programmers would consider programming more of an art than a science.

To get back on topic, his project would have been better suited in a programming exposition rather than in Young Scientist.

Dr_Teeth

"Computer Science is a course, not a fact."

I have a degree in Computer Science from TCD and I wouldn't call myself a scientist either.

As I've said earlier in this thread, what this guy has done is pretty cool - and hard work. But it isn't science.

Teeth.

LizardKing

I don't really want to go on about this but ....

"Computer Science does not mean Programming "

there are many different other areas which incorporate Computer Science which would be very much fact such as studies in genome therapy , Bioinformatics , human vision etc. Also Computer Science ties in closely with Maths and Pyhsics in nanotechnology and silicon chip production so I'd be a little more broad minded in future in my categorisation of what determines or makes up Computer Science

Now ... Back to topic

cherrio

LizardKing, you missed my point. Yes there is a broad range of areas that computer professionals can go into, but we are talking about Young Scientist. His submission had nothing to do with genome therapy , Bioinformatics , human vision etc. It was a pure programming exercise not a scientific one. As such, Young Scientist was not the place to show case his work.

Dr_Teeth

I don't reckon there is any such thing as Computer Science. In those areas you mention computing is there simply as an enabler. Computing is an engineering discipline imho.

but yes, back to topic! Down with web browsers (especially ones that use dodgy protocol hacks to increase speed) winning science prizes!

Teeth.

LizardKing

Originally posted by cherrio
LizardKing, you missed my point. Yes there is a broad range of areas that computer professionals can go into, but we are talking about Young Scientist. His submission had nothing to do with genome therapy , Bioinformatics , human vision etc. It was a pure programming exercise not a scientific one. As such, Young Scientist was not the place to show case his work.

Its The ESAT Young Scientist and "technology" Exhibition ... a couple of years ago winner got famous for crypthography maths exhibit..

granted this is the first time a technology project has won but its definitely not the first time one has entered.

Anyway I don't think we're gonna agree so heres the categories allowed for entrants ......

PROJECT CATEGORIES

Students can choose to enter a project in one of the following four categories. Be careful to choose the correct project category as an incorrect choice could be penalised.

1. Biological and Ecological Sciences
This category includes projects which cover botany, agriculture, agricultural science, horticulture, zoology, biochemistry, physiology, microbiology, food science, ecology, biotechnology,environmental projects and biogeography, (in the case of the last two, only if the main thrust is biological). Studies of the human body and chemistry of micro-organisms are also included here.

2. Chemical, Physical and Mathematical Sciences
This category covers projects on chemistry, physics, mathematics, engineering, computer programming, electronics and encryption as well as earth and space sciences such as meteorology, geophysics and astronomy.

3. Social and Behavioural Sciences
Economic, sociological and psychological studies of human behaviour, attitudes and
experience, social analysis of environmental factors, human geography studies, demography, learning and perception as well as the study of attitudes and behaviour in relation to health, nutrition, work, leisure and living habits are all included here. Also eligible are projects on consumer affairs, effects on society, social anthropology and political science provided they involve the use of scientific methods.

4. Technology
For a project to be accepted into the technology category the core of the project must be the application of technology in new or improved products, enhanced efficiencies, new innovations or better ways to do things. The category could include things related to the Internet, communications, electronic systems, robotics, control technology, applications of technology, biotechnology, innovative developments to existing problems, computing and automation.


(Note: Technology Section)

Cheers

ozmo1

Originally posted by parasite
pictures : http://radio.weblogs.com/0103966/stories/2003/01/28/screenShotsFromAdnanOsmanisWebBrowser.html

I just came across the libraries that I'm sure he used for the "Animated Character" that "reads out web pages" and gives a "tour of the application" Phoebe I think he called his character...

Open the following link - dont have to doanything - just wait a while....

http://www.microsoft.com/msagent/TryMSAgent.htm


ozmo

sceptre

Originally posted by LizardKing
Its The ESAT Young Scientist and "technology" Exhibition ... a couple of years ago winner got famous for crypthography maths exhibit..

granted this is the first time a technology project has won but its definitely not the first time one has entered.

Nuff said on that IMHO (LizardKing seems to have resolved the issue totally). You may or may not agree that CS is "science". People are still arguing over whether economics is a "science". Fact is the comp has been called the young scientist and technology exibition for a few years and Adnan's project obviously fits into one of the eligible categories to be part of the exibition and be eligible for a prize. In other words, it doesn't matter whether CS is science - it still falls into an eligible category.

karlin

Hi folks -- just thought I'd jump in if you don't mind as I'm now a registered user [ducks thrown rotten fruit!]. I usually don't like to interfere with discussion threads so I'll duck in and then duck out again...

Anyway very briefly the initial code line counts were probably about right for the full program but not for what the student wrote himself. As noted I checked this out with a couple of the tech judges who said using Microsoft libraries and Borland C++ would have generated thousands upon thousands of lines of code on their own. While Adnan actually spoke to Dick Ahlstrom at the event the story that got wide distribution was a French-speaking journo who I think rang him or emailed him. On the count discrepencies, I don't know if we're talking language glitch or just some youthful boastfulness or that he didn't really know the exact count. The student and Esat then released a press release to clarify that it was 200,000 lines he produced.

My understanding from people who had a good look at the browser is that it does go far beyond simply pooling existing products. As the Intel judge emphasised, it is a complete whole -- not something pieced together. From my own experience of watching it run, it looks very sharp visually and very coherent structurally. I failed to mention in stories that the browser instantly creates thumbnails of pages as well if you want a site preview, and will open multiple windows within the browser so that you can open multiple sites at once. It has a nice feature too of remembering where you were in your last web session and has a little calendaring feature at the top of the Phoebe page that lists your appointments for the day. There's a lot more similar touches -- I just couldn't get it all into the shortish pieces I've written. And frankly, I got a bit tired of writing about this subject!

I do understand the frustration at not having more info. It surprises me that more tech-inclined journos haven't spoken to him and gone through some of these issues -- especially at the height of interest in the browser -- it's not like he was refusing to talk or I had special access. I would never claim to have the prgramming ability to ask some of what you want to know and indeed used many of the questions raised here [thanks!] when talking to researchers/judges who saw the browser as well as talking to Adnan. Esat is of course willing to facilitate access to Adnan but the bottom line is: NO ONE HAS ASKED! Instead people keep quoting my stories or other writer's stories and lots of distortions have gone out to some of the boards around the world and to other news sites. In particular I'm amazed at how many foreign journos have just emailed me or used my stories as background without simply talking to Adnan -- though maybe it's a language issue. So push someone else to go have a chat with him!

Oh yeah, the point about earlier downloads -- Adnan told me he had a site where well over a year ago you could download a really basic form of the browser -- just the initial design with very little added in. He took the site down after a while, once he started adding things in.

Karlin

cherrio

Hi karlin, good to have you here, maybe we can get facts rather than speculation No doubt you have just set this topic alight again!

The only thing I question about your post is, "It surprises me that more tech-inclined journos haven't spoken to him", I do not think it is from lack of trying. This stroy has been covered by all the biggest tech sites in the work (slashdot, wired etc..)

Do you have the url of his old site (even if it no longer exists)?

The biggest question I have, is why he hasn't just come out into the public and demostrate his project to a panel of actual technical people (and make the results public), surely he is aware of all the speculation? I would be nice to have some hard facts for once, straight from the horses mouth so to speak.