Dennis Miller on Israel

>>>>>>Having been present in the Camp all morning, I can testify that any Palestinian fighters had stopped shooting a good two hours before either of us was wounded. When I passed the UN compound in the morning, it was surrounded by Israeli Army snipers and soldiers who were shooting erratically into the Camp. Two people were killed and six wounded. <<<<<

I agree that the taking out of civilians is a terrible thing. The shooting of children is horrible. However, in this i would like to mention a few things. The Palestinian forces have decided to use gurellia tactics, which means using civilian camoflage. Appearing out of a crowd, shooting at soldiers, and then disappearing back into the crowd. When supported by the general public, this is the concept behind guerrila warfare. The problem with this is, that they've been using these tactics for the last 20 odd years, & the Israelis naturally are in a disadvantage. The point i wish to make abt the above statement, is how are the Israeli army to know that there are no more gunmen in the crowd? That the crowd don't all have weapons?



>>>>>>>>>The massacre has not stopped. <<<<<<<

Human rights violations and war crimes seen so blatantly across the world in April of this year continue on a daily basis in Jenin. Yesterday, with the casual killings that marked it, was not an unusual day in Jenin. It has become a potentially suicidal act to engage in the most basic acts of survival. The Israeli Occupation Forces engage again and again in a shoot-to-kill policy without regard as to whether its targets are civilians or armed fighters. Israelis have been shown in April that they can get away with a massacre, and that all the international condemnation in the world cannot get one ambulance in to evacuate a wounded person.<<<<<<<<<

"Two people were killed and six wounded." When has this ever consituted a Massacre? The last suicide bomber i heard of took out 20+ people, wounded & killed included. Is that not a Massacre? To a nation that has been getting hit by a couple of Massacres every month or so, I think i can understand the reasoning behind treating all civilians as potential enemies. Do you know if the Palestinian fighters engage in a Shoot-to-Kill policy against both israeli civilian/Military targets?


>>>>>>They are being denied not only the right to resist, but to exist.<<<<<<
Well, for a people, being denied the right to resist they're doing an "awful job" of it. Do they have the right to launch suicide bombers into a country with the intention of killing ANYTHING at all? I daresay that if they stopped fighting, this would get resolved. Remember, while the Israeli Army, occupied these areas, they didn't send in large troop forces (with the intention of fighting the Palestinians) until they got tired of being hit by suicide bombers. Before the bombers, they policed the area, similiar to what the british do in the North. Yes, they occupy it, and the Palestinians have the right to resist, but i have never, nor will i ever support a group that intentially targets Civilian Areas. ( In "Palestine", the way they fight, guarantees theres no difference between civilian & miltary targets).



This incident is a horrible thing. But i can understand how it happened.

bonkey

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
1. Repeatedly Sharon and the IDF Isreali Army have proved by their ReOccupation of Palestinian controlled sectors - and by their Removal of any Palestinians that they wish to imprison or remove, that CLEARLY Israel alone has the power to put and keep any of its people or the Palestinians where ever they wish.

No - it has the want, not the power.

For a start, if Israel clearly had this power, then they would clearly have already stopped those suicide bombers from coming onto their lands....except of course that you seem to assert that this is deliberate - that Israel wants to let these bombers in so as to give it an excuse to grab more land. I'll dela with that farcical notion later on.

Secondly, as I pointed out (which you conveniently ignored), Israel has no way of policing borders which are not contiguous to its own. How, for example, would Israel stop an Australian Jew from flying into Palestine via a stopover in another ostensibly arab nation?

So closing the borders is No Problem.

Really? Explain how the Palestinian borders which do not touch Israel will be closed by the Israelis? Explain how the Israeli's will control the passenger list of every flight into Palestine, regardless of the plane's origin? Explain how they will accurately identify the religion of every single person on those planes, given that it is not information available from the airlines or any other source.

They don't want to do that -as I am sure you well know and endorse- because A. They wish to use the Palestinian's patriotic violent resistance to their Israeli Invasion and Occupation of Palestinian land as an excuse to Annex all of Palestine - for "Israeli safety" of course. And B. Israel wants cheap Palestinian labor to dig their ditches and do their menial work.

So, what you're in effect saying is that bombings are continuing because Israel wants the bombings to continue? Riiight.

As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region. The effect this would have on the world oil market is easily imaginable, as is the knock-on crippling of the entire global economy.

I can assure you that the US - much and all as it likes Israel - would walk in there and slap them six ways to Sunday before that would be allowed to happen.

You go on to make the claim that:
..... You make a false claim there. What is your SOURCE -proving that the *"Majority"* of sucide bombers cross the border illegaly??

Well, gosh, my source would be the fact that the border guards search everyone crossing at the legal points. So unless you want to claim that they are not actually bothering to stop the people they find the explosives on, we can safely assume that at the very least the explosives are being smuggled across the border. So exactly how will border checks manage to stop this?

If the majority had crossed Illegally the Israelis would not be able to retaliate by demolishing the Houses that They and their families lived in.

Sure...well lets try a slight rewording then...

even if the bombers are crossing legally and unarmed, someone is smuggling the bombs across the border. By this logic, closing the border will not prevent suicide bombings, as the bomber simply needs to be the person smuggling the bomb across in future, if that is not the case already

You are a disinformation purveyor for Israel.

Riiiight. Thats why at least 50% of my posts on the Israel/Palestine argument over the past year or two have been condemning the Israeli actions. Its all so clear now. How could I have missed it?

Course, at least I'm not blinkered enough to believe that only one side is to blame, nor to believe that the solution which has evaded the world for the past few decades is so blindingly simple.

No. Israel will never close the 1967 borders simply because that WOULD END The suicide bombing and End the Israeli excuse to grab more land. Israel needs the violent resistence to their Occupation of Palestine as the Israeli Excuse to grab more and more of Palestine - not to mention it serves as an excuse to exterminate the courageous proportion of the Palestinian people who violently resist the Occupation.

I find it amazing that you have such a low opinion of Palestinians, despite the fact that you clearly wish to innacruately portray them as the sole victims in all of this.

Allow me to clarify....

You clearly must think that they are all cretins or something, because if this is the reason for it all - that Israel is deliberately provoking these bombers for an ulterior motive - then surely all the Palestinians have to do is stop sending bombers.

In fact, surely the only sensible, intelligent thing to do is stop sending bombers. But they're not doing that. So either they realise what Israel is up to but are too stupid to realise how to deal with it, or they havent realised what Israel are up to....but you make it sound glaringly obvious that I cant believe that unless you assert that their intelligence is somehow lacking.

Were Palestine to stop co-operating by sending thse suicide bombers, Israel would quickly lose its expansion possibilities, lose its "us poor Jews always being picked on" cover-story, and would quickly lose international support when it became clear that Palestine wants a peaceful solution and the Israeli's dont.

The only possible explanation for all of this is that the Palestinian people, as a nation, are fundamentally stupid, because their leaders (spiritual, governmental, or resistance-based) have realised none of this yet.

So maybe youd care to explain to me...if Israel is clearly the bad guy, and Israel is clearly provoking Palestine to its reactions, and Israel clearly wants these reactions to continue to further its aims as a nation (at the cost of its people), then what on earth are the Palestinians playing into their hands for????

Like I said...despite defending them vigorously, you have to admit they're pretty thick by simple extrapolation from your own arguments.

TrevorOcon

Bonkey - I don't have the Internet time most people on here perhaps have. I appreciate you taking the points I make seriously and sticking to the issues as you have however.

It seems that I was wrong in suggesting that you have a bias for Israel that would lead you to post Israeli propaganda.

Many years back when it seemed that their might be an overwhelming Arab coalition to destroy Israel I and another young friend of mine decided together that we would work continuously for Israel - whenever we could and perhaps even fight with Israeli forces if possible. I think it just and good for the world for Israel to flourish as a country . But not to flourish by taking the Palestinian land that Israel has settled Israelis on - and not to flourish at the expense of the Palestinian people by taking more land.

It is not Up to those whose land is Invaded and Occupied to first stop the Violent Resistence - or ANY violent resistence to those Occupiers. It is up to the Occupier FIRST to GET OUT of the lands that they have Taken and Occupied of others in order to have the violence toward them stop. It is Ridiculous for Israel to claim or to say to the world that "we will only 'just consider' getting out of the Palestinian's After the Palestinians stop trying to drive us out of Palestine by their suicide bombings."

One doesn't negotiate with an Occupying tyrant while that tyrant -in this case Israel- is holding your country and your people prisoner. Obviously what happens when an Occupier REALLY wants Peace is that the Occupier FIRST gets OUT of the country of the people that they want peace with. The Colonists did not negotiate with Britain while the British were attempting to hold the Colonies prisoner by military Occupation. Only after the British GOT out did we make peace. We did not 'Defeat' the country of Britain - all we did was drive the British from America militarily. We did not defeat the British empire.

Nor did the Irish negotiate with Britian Until Britain agreed to Get Out of Ireland. However the Irish brought the British to the negotiating table by bringing the war to Britain by setting off bombs in London. Only after sufficient IRA bombings in England did Britain agree to leave Ireland.

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave. We always attempt to denigrate the 'bravery ' of an enemy by Rededining what we think 'bravery' should mean. Well like or not both the Japanese and the Nazis were VERY brave. BIAS just causes one to try to tell an enemy what 'we' think should be regarded as brave. Everybody talks about killed children and women. There have been scores of killed children and women on both sides. If the Israelis would Withdraw entirely from the country they are occupying there would be no reason for suicide bombing. Arafat has said REPEATEDLY that the PLO accepts the state of Israel within its 1967 UN mandated borders.

The Israelis with American military and financial support have ALL the armament cards. Those groups suppoting the Palestinians MUST fight the Overwhelming military might of Israel that is occupying their land ANY Way they can. Both Sides Accuse the other of TARGETING children and women . Niether side actually targets children and women. The Arabs blowup the Invading Israelis where ever they Can!! Which is entirely understandable to anyone who can imagine the army oif another people Occupying your country and dominating your families.

It is perfectly right for Arab patriots to keep on suicide bombing Israelis until the Israelis Get out of their land. Both sides are killing children and women in this conflict. If either side would have more Ability to choose not to involve women and children in their killings - It would be the Israeli side, for the Israelis have the overwhelming power and technology to target whom they wish - when they wish. The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

The Israelis are Clearly the oppressors here and the group motivated by the evil of land-greed. If Palestinians make Israelis feel 'Unsafe' then if you are an Israeli Get out of Palestine. WHY ARE you Settled on their land - if you want to feel 'safe'? Of course they are going to try to kill you. What would you expect? If Israelis feel Unsafe around Palestinians then get ALL Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians OUt of Israel and don't let any such even leave a plane there . And definitely don't allow any border crossings. The country with the 5th largest army in the world, Israel, can definitely Police the borders of a country smaller than New England. And to get out of that unsafe land of Palestine - All the Israelis have to do is walk back to Israel - whiich they should have done just prior to the killing of Prime minister Rabin who was in the process of implementing that withdrawel. AS we know many Israelis did not want let the Palestinians have that land back.

The Solution has always been this and will always be this - Israel to get Out of Palestine .

growler

but you are ignoring the divine right of the jewish settlers to do whatever they want , it's obvious that they're god is right and that the palestinian's and they're islamic god fella should feck off back to the sand dunes from whence they came.

DiscoStu

Originally posted by growler
but you are ignoring the divine right of the jewish settlers to do whatever they want , it's obvious that they're god is right and that the palestinian's and they're islamic god fella should feck off back to the sand dunes from whence they came.

real constructive post there growler.

And for your information it is all the same god.

---

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave.

you've got to be joking, right? They're murderers and nothing else. Just as any troops that intentially target women & children are murderers.

growler

i was being ironic , but thank you DiscoStu for clarifying that theological question that has been bothering countless millions for some time "it's the same god" ... that should bring many conflicts to an immediate halt then!

TrevorOcon

Answer to Klaz's: questioning a line for Effect even when it has already been answered - post below

>

---

The Arab suicide bombers are noble and incredibly brave.

you've got to be joking, right? They're murderers and nothing else. Just as any troops that intentially target women & children are murderers.<

As you Knew the answer was right there for you below what you quoted:
:We always attempt to denigrate the 'bravery ' of an enemy by Redefining what we think 'bravery' should mean. Well like or not both the Japanese(Kamakaze suicide pilots) and the Nazis were VERY brave. Bill Meyer on "Politically Incorrect" showed the people who were calling the 9-11 suicide
pilots 'not brave or cowards' as the fools that they were. BIAS just causes one to try to tell an enemy what 'we' think should be regarded as brave. Everybody talks about killed children and women. There have been scores of killed children and women on both sides. If the Israelis would Withdraw entirely from the country they are occupying there would be no reason for suicide bombing.
+++++++++++++++ And reguarding 'Targeting children' - clearly the ability and actual
carrying out the targeting of children has been more Israeli than Palestinian.

Both sides are killing children and women in this conflict. If either side would have more Ability to choose not to involve women and children in their killings - It would be the Israeli side, for the Israelis have the overwhelming power and technology to target whom they wish - when they wish. The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

But you knew all this. You read all this. So you ask the question and post the quote
for Effect on others - as if I had not already made these points on it.

Meh

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
The Arabs who support the Palestinians have only their only primitive weapons of explosives concealed on their bodies and so do not have the power of such a choice.

Ah, so the Israeli army is rounding up Hamas members and forcing them at gunpoint to suicide-bomb cafes and nightclubs? Get real -- of course the Palestinians have a choice. And they choose to murder innocent civilians.

TrevorOcon

Meh - the post you quoted did not say 'no choice' but that the Palestinians did not have SUCH a choice as Israel has as Israel continues the VIOLENCE and killing of its 30 YEAR military Occupation of Palestine.

Sure the Palestinians have a 'choice' of not Violently resisting the Violent Occupation of their land - but If the Arabs supporting the Palestinians are to use Violence to resist the Violent occupation of their land [and they should Violently resist that] then they with out any regular army or technologically US Supported Weapons such as Israel has - will have to Strike wherever they can - and this will mean that children will at times be in the group of Israelis at which they strike with their pitiful self-destroying bombs

And the Israelis have a CHOICE TOO! They can GET OUT of Another People's land and stop holding the Palestinian People prisoner. That's the Israeli CHOICE - a choice that would end the reason for suicide bombing reisistance [ As Arafat and the PLO have definitely state that they agree and accept Israel's Nationhood WITHING THE UN Madated 1967 BORDERS. All ISREAL Has to do is GET OUT OF Palestine.

The Israelis with all the Surveillance technology Communications and US Weapons support have far more such a Choice of not killing children - yet Israel does kill Palestinian children also.

TrevorOcon

(Well switching back and forth -using the the "back" arrow will repost your post - at least on my computer) that's the reason for this empty post space. I don't see an erase button)

--- TrevorOcon -- I said the killing of women & children by both sides ( either Troops, or Palestinian groups) is considered by myself to be murder. However the comment was made that suicide bombers are brave & noble. Its this i disagree with. They go out, and target areas where it would be hard not to take out civilians. If you took all the attacks from the last 2 years, how many of them actually went for non-military targets? And i'm not saying that Israeeli troops are outside of this argument. I said already that ANY Troops that kill women & children are Murderers.

I just think that the Suicide Bombers are more pre-meditated. The killings made by the Israeli Army, are alot less than that, of these "noble" suicide murderers.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Meh
Ah, so the Israeli army is rounding up Hamas members and forcing them at gunpoint to suicide-bomb cafes and nightclubs? Get real -- of course the Palestinians have a choice. And they choose to murder innocent civilians.

Actually your kind of correct Meh. Take these incidents (all of which have happened).

- If your father a taxi driver was left in a settler zone for three days (without food and water) after having his papers taken by soliders for no reason and if he leaves his taxi or the area without papers will be shot and killed (by law). Do you think that is fair?

- Your father (actually different taxi driver) wrestles and stops a terrorist bomber that has gotten into thier cab from killing people but hurts himself in the process when the bomb detonates. While just after entering hospital for the wounds he gets, he is dragged from his wheelchair by police and held for four days (because he is Muslim living in Isreal) and eventually let go innocent. Do you think that is fair?

- Your child/children are killed by a bomb planted by Israeli police force who claim they didn't plant it and claim your kids blew themselves up. Later on when it's proven it was in fact an assinsation job every officer involved in killing the children are not arrested or diciplined. Do you think that is fair?

- Your injured and friends are killed after Israeli police force fire a missile into a car in a crowded area to kill one man and end up killing passerbys. No one is arrested for it. Do you think that is fair?

- Israeli forces drop a bomb on your house killing your family and everyone else in the building because they wanted to kill one person. Do you think that is fair?

- Israeli forces missile attack a palistine police station to kill a terrorist that has been jailed by Palistine police at the request of Israel (they just wouldn't hand him over as they didn't feel they would get a fair trial). Instead of killing the person they end up killing the police and allowing the prisoner to escape to kill other Israelis. Do you think that is fair?

- Your watching a documentry about how the brave Isreali soliders are dealing with terrorists. You watch as on TV in front of a documentry crew the captain of police team tells his men to start laying explosives to an apartment complex while people are still in it just to arrest one person. Do you think that is fair?

- Your parents are shot and killed while your mother who is pregnant are trying to get to a hospital through a roadblock set up a by Israelis. Do you think that is fair?

- Your house burns to the ground and people are killed because Israeli police refuse to allow the fire engine to get to your area.

- A solider comes to a red cross building full of food and claims a terrorist is hiding in the building. You let them search the place, after finding nothing they then go and blow the building to bits, meaning a lot of people will starve. Do you think that is fair?

Yes it's pretty fuking sad that Palistine terrorists do what they do, but don't be so fuking niave that they just are born that way. If Israel quit 90% of the **** it pulls the terrorists wouldn't have nearly as many people willing to blow themselves up.

Bonkey: As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region.

Bonkey, Israel have been taking land since 9/11 and haven't given any back since.

I think both sides are as fuked up as each other, but it erks the crap out of me when people claim one side is "Right".

Meh

Originally posted by Hobbes
...incidents...

I agree with you that this behaviour by the Israeli security forces is reprehensible. But it doesn't excuse or mitigate in any way the appalling behaviour of the Palestinian suicide bombers. Wrong + wrong !=right.

Sure the Palestinians have a 'choice' of not Violently resisting the Violent Occupation of their land - but If the Arabs supporting the Palestinians are to use Violence to resist the Violent occupation of their land [and they should Violently resist that] then they with out any regular army or technologically US Supported Weapons such as Israel has - will have to Strike wherever they can - and this will mean that children will at times be in the group of Israelis at which they strike with their pitiful self-destroying bombs

It's perfectly possible for the Palestinians to violently resist Israeli occupation by targetting the Israeli security forces rather than targetting civilians. But they prefer to deliberately aim at innocent civilians.

TrevorOcon

This is Meh's statement below:

>"It's perfectly possible for the Palestinians to violently resist Israeli occupation by targetting the Israeli security forces rather than targetting civilians. But they prefer to deliberately aim at innocent civilians."<

Airing of Biases and debate are one thing - decending to pure nonsense is another.

Been to Haifa lately Meh ? I have - as officer on a vessel. Not even a tourist can approach a group of IDF men let alone a barracks, or military instalation without first from a Distance lifting up their clothing and then being searched by a single soldier while others cover him with weapons from a distance. WHAT ARE YOU SAYING Here, Man? Every military and civil installation in the country and the Occupied Palestinian Lands is Guarded and by search from a Distance. IDF patrols CONTOL All approaches to them - They've got the scientific weapons and the Organized numbers to do it.

The Arabs in support of the Palestinians have NOTHING but their bodies and homemade bombs; No Control in either Israel or in Occupied Palestine. The word OCCUPIED in the military sense - you're familiar with what that means, right? Palestine is Heavily Occupied - Meaning that you can't approach the Israeli soldiers -at least the ones who are STILL IN UNIFORM - who are holding your country in OCCUPATION. As Arab Freedom Fighters you can only approach those Israeli male soldiers who HAVE GONE BACK TO CIVILIAN LIFE - WHOSE COMPULSORY TERM AS IDF MEN IS OVER. These Ex-Israeli Soldier-'Civilians' are often among women and children. ((Some of them may even attempt as often as they can to be around women and children in the hopes that there is less liklihood that they will be attacked as the Occupiers of another people's land - which is what they ARE.))

The ONLY option that those Arabs who wish the Israeli government's Occupation of Palestine to stop so Palestine can be restored to the Palestinians - have, is just as the IRISH had, to attack these 'Civilian'-Soldiers WHEREVER they can get close to them.

Your claim that it would be possible for the suicide-Patriots to attack only army men is TOTALLY without ANY factual basis.

TrevorOcon

Look Klaz - I have to grant you the majority of your point expressed in your last post. However - What is the Biggest Point here? THe Point is that Israel is doing the first and Fundamental EVIL by REMAINING in Violent OCCUPATION of the Palestinians and the land of Palestine. -MOST-, any Violence towards a people Violently Occupying another counrty is perfectably expectable and Right. They want it to stop ? All they have to do is GET OUT. GET OUT.

The Israelis hope Somebody might still believe their land-grab mantra - they use it because - There is nothing else they can think of::
"Oh if we get out we will Still have the same suicide bombings - so we might as well stay." Total Bull****

NO ONE who is rational Believes that bull**** - so why keep trying to make it fly? It's not going to fly, Klaz. The majority of the World is not 'antisemite' - the majority of the World is simply anti-bull**** and anti-Israeli occupation.

Since their is No Other Way the Palestinians can Violently Resist - the Violent Israeli Occupation but by Patriotic-suicide bombing, then even more tragically, - women and children will be colateral damage. Sure you can CLAIM that the Palestinians Target Women and Children and the Women and Children are not 'collateral' damage -

BUT

That is Just as BIASED as Palestinians CLAIMING that Women and Children are Targeted when they KNOW that women and children are there in an Entire Building that they Missle destroy in order to 'assassinate' a 'terrorist' Patriot.


Just two sides of the same degree of BIAS, man.

TrevorOcon

And remember, Klaz, you started this thread in the hopes that somebody would buy that lame old Dennis Miller canard that the Palestinians are not really a people and that there never was such a thing as Palestine.

If you did that for a joke - then its a profoundly sad and painful thing to start joking about while the terrible suffering and the Israeli interrogation TORTURES go on.

The Noble Israeli officers and non-commission army men in ISRAEL who are in the group The Courage to Refuse (to continue to oppress the Palestinian with Occupation) - know it is no joke. These brave Israeli fighting men have had the courage to Go to Jail rather than to continue to destroy the Palestinians to keep the Occupation going.

If masses of men in the Israeli Army are refusing to serve in the Palestine Occupying forces - it ought to be evident even to Israeli Land-grab supporters that - there is No moral - or Truthful basis for Israel to be in invasion and Occupation of Palestine.

Clintons Cat

As for annexing more land...not a chance. Cannot and will not happen. Were Israel to grab more land - even a square meter - the arab reaction would lead to a war in the Middle East which would destabilise the entire region. The effect this would have on the world oil market is easily imaginable, as is the knock-on crippling of the entire global economy.

Israel is currently building a "peace wall" between itself and the occupied territories,based along loosely the 1967 boarders.The wall when completed will be more expensive per square mile than the Berlin Wall
one of the residual effects is that it seperates owners of palestinian farms (note farmers not bombers ) from their land,the nearest access gate when the wall is completed can be anything up to 20 miles away,through which anything up to 20,000 people will attempt to pass daily on their way into israel to work.Failiure to work their own land have draconian penalties under laws dating back to ottoman times and retained on the statute books Untilled Land is susceptible to repossesion and redistribution by the state.
Secondly palestinian homes in the path of the wall and the designated "no mans land" are being demolished to make way for said wall.
Not to mention the well publisicised demolition of homes to provide a security corridor around the settlements that will in time follow the standard pattern established by likud of then redeveloping the area with more settlers housing,which then necessitates the demolition of further houses ad infinitum.



Jayyous and Qalqilya
Pengon Labels Security Fence Aparthied Wall

gurramok

Originally posted by Meh
I agree with you that this behaviour by the Israeli security forces is reprehensible. But it doesn't excuse or mitigate in any way the appalling behaviour of the Palestinian suicide bombers. Wrong + wrong !=right.

Something like about over 2000 palestinian civilians have been executed by israeli soldiers, alot of them very young people.
Has there been any prosecutions to make account of these killings??
Some here seem to think that israel army is suppose to be legit and enforce law and the likes of arafat is suppose to be a terrorist. (we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing)
In my view both are equally culpable of killings, but more so the israelis for tolerating mass killings. A lack of accountability for these killings is a serious lack of judgement by the israeli gov.
It gives the attitude as if a palestinian life is worthless.
This is where it leads to 'wrong + wrong nearly equal right' for many palestinians in their quest for staehood.

TrevorOcon

A true and very cogent post 'gurramok' . Most of what you said I think is rarely ever said - or if it is ever said - it is usually said incompletely and ineptly.

However it is not true that 'we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing' .

Originally posted by gurramok
...........(we all know that suicide bombers are wrong in what they are doing)...................

Negative. Many believe the suicide bombers Under the Circumstances to be Right.

They are bombing the People of an Occupying Invader - If the Occupying Invading People keep their children with them in public while their country is holding another county in bodage - Of Course they are going to be bombed. When the Israelis bombed the Arabs with the First Strike of the 67 War did they refuse to bomb where they knew there would be some children ? Of course not. The Israelis bombed the targets that they thought would help their mission - and nothing was called off to save children.


The 'Propaganda' is wrong - in attempting to spin the Perception of what the suicide bombers Inteding to do. The Israeli propaganda - while at the same time that Israelis are intentionally targeting and destroying a building that they know may have women and children in it to assassinate One major terrorist - goes on to accuse the Palestinians of 'Targeting women and children' when they blow up a mixed crowd of Israelis that has all sexes and ages in it. I don't think either adversary side is actually 'targeting women and children'.

As VERY CLEARLY explained in my recent post above - the Palestinians having NO sophisticated US weapon support and No free country to operate from have No Choice if they are to Violently Resist the Violent invasion and theft-occupation of Palestinian land - but to strike at ANY group of THAT INVADING PEOPLE that they can Reach.

The Israelis with the power of the latest to-date Weapons and Military control can much more target whom they wish. The Arab suicide bombers supporting the Palestinians - can't choose to avoid collateral child damage because in almost all cases the INVADERS Have their children with them When they are Out of Uniform and approachable in Civilian life. If UNTIL, the Israeli Occuupiers and Invaders Get Out of Palestine - they wish to not have their children bombed with them - then they will have to keep children Out of Public at all times until Israel is willing to let Palestine go free.

The suicide bombers are freedom-fighting patriots who sacrifice their own lives to take the lives of the Invaders to drive them Out of their homes and land.

Clintons Cat

I disagree.

For one thing many of the targets chosen for the suicide bombers by the stategic command of Hamas,Hitzbollah and the Al Asque Martyrs Brigade are of low strategic importance.
If the suicide bombers contained their attacks to purely military targets even allowing for the euphamism of collateral damage maybe such a policy would be slightly more paletable.

But they dont,

Their targets include Universities where Jewish and Arab Students both study together and Interact with one another
The only forseeable effect being that numbers of admissions for students from Arabic backgrounds are likely to be curtailed,which will have a knock on effect of limiting the future generations pool of intellectual resourses upon which a future palestinian state will rely for successful governance.

Other targets include the Buses upon which Palestinians are ferried to work in israel,resulting in greater restrictions on their right to work and freedom to travel.Ideolgy is all well and fine but when your only concern is finding the money to feed your family its a luxury you can not afford.Not to mention many victims of the bus bombings were Palestinians and not Israelis,which helps explain in part the disproportionate number of casualties on the palestinian side.

Other targets include the delliberate targeting of settlers famillies and non combatents which accellerates and legitemises the process of house demolition.
I am fully aware that violations of the oslo accord,which agreed to the suspension of building further settlements within the occupied territories occured during the peace process.
However it is also true that Rabin by dismantling some of said illeagal settlements incurred the wrath of the settler associations which would ultimately lead to his assasination.

Now i am no supporter of the Oslo accord,if it had been enabled as put forward by the Israelis it would have effectively led to the Bantuisation of the fledgling Palestinian Authority.
However I am equally and firmly opposed to the Al Asqu Intafada
a strategy which i believe overplayed the importance of Hitzbollahs role in Israels decision to withdraw from Lebbonon.A more decisive role was played by Americas threat to withhold Ecconomic assistance unless Israel complied.

bonkey

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
When the Israelis bombed the Arabs with the First Strike of the 67 War did they refuse to bomb where they knew there would be some children ? Of course not. The Israelis bombed the targets that they thought would help their mission - and nothing was called off to save children.

There is a clear distinction between targetting something of military value , the destruction of which causes civilian deaths and the carrying out of an act which is aimed purely at civilians.

Regardless of whether or not you accept that, the existence of past atrocities by anyone does not in any way justify the continuation of such barbaric acts - by either side.

It is abundantly clear that neither side is willing to take the first step in ceasing hostility, as both place demands as precursors which are impossible to meet.

Clearly neither side is in the right, and regardless of how raw a deal anyone may feel the Palestinians have got, this in no way makes their actions any more or less correct or justified than those of the Israelis.

jc

Turnip

Originally posted by TrevorOcon
The suicide bombers are freedom-fighting patriots who sacrifice their own lives to take the lives of the Invaders to drive them Out of their homes and land.

Rubbish. Their actions are deepening divisions between arabs and Israelis, and they're making a just political settlement increasingly unlikely. They are not 'patriots'. They are cowardly murderers and traitors to their people.

TrevorOcon

The above poster refered to one of my views as 'rubbish' - which is acceptable to me . However the POINT is: ALL these so called 'reasons' and disputes about suicide-bombing patriots and Israelis proctecting themselves by killing those they
SUSPECT - by helicopter-rocket-ship assassination is - RUBBISH.

The only worthy point is - the only thing that is not Rubbish is



FOR ISRAEL TO GET OUT OF THE PALESTINIAN'S LAND - TO GET OUT OF OF PALESTINE.


THE ISRAELIS HOLDING ANOTHER COUNTRY AND PEOPLE UNDER IMPRISONMENT-OCCUPATION IS THE *CAUSE*

AND FOR ISRAEL TO GET OUT OF PALESTINE, IS THE SOLUTION.



EVERYTHING ELSE IS -RUBBISH-

TrevorOcon --- Since their is No Other Way the Palestinians can Violently Resist -

To be honest this is the part i don't understand. Why resist so violently that you alienate yourself from the world. There are many ways to resist, that wouldn't turn world opinion away from them. Suicide Bombing civilian targets is wrong. Are you going to tell me that premeditated murder by some mistaken fanatic is right? I have no problem with military targets. As long as they the military i can see whats happening as being a war, however when they deliberately target civilians, i see them as terrorists/murderers. (no rightous cause, no valid reason to kill).

One other factor. Say things went back to before israel took Palestine. Can u really see the arabs stopping their attacks on israel? They continue with their holy crusade to rid the middle east of the Jew. The Suicide bombings would continue, as would other terrorist attacks.

Personally i don't see much hope for that region. I admit i don't have a Valid, and Reasonable answer to the problem.

The Saint

"One other factor. Say things went back to before israel took Palestine. Can u really see the arabs stopping their attacks on israel? They continue with their holy crusade to rid the middle east of the Jew. The Suicide bombings would continue, as would other terrorist attacks. "

Before the foundation of Israel Jews, Christians and Arabs lived together in Palestine in peace and harmony with each other. Arabs do not hate Jews as US and Iseraeli propoganda would have you believe and the only reason there is a war going on is the brutal and illegal supressed of the Palestinian people.

Funny how its all israeli & american propoganda... I know there is a large Israeli propoganda machine out there, & i know it affects me. However, from what i've from the posters in here, there seems to be the same for the Palestinians.

The Saint

I think I would trust the European media on issues like this rather than the US or Israel which are obviously blatantly biased to the Israeli cause. Also pro-Palestinian propaganda doesnt mean **** when you have the richest and most powerful country in the world supporting you.

actually what i meant was from what i've heard in here. People here tend to use links to show their opinions have some bearing. Some of these links are serious american/israeli bashing sites. I watch the european news, since the american news is just boring. European at least sheds it in the light of how it affects us, however, all news is biased by the people reporting it.

point i wished to make. If we're all being hit by Israeli/American Propaganda, abt what goes on in the middle east, what makes you think you're not being hit by Pro-Palestinian Propaganda?

Clintons Cat

actually what i meant was from what i've heard in here. People here tend to use links to show their opinions have some bearing. Some of these links are serious american/israeli bashing sites. I watch the european news, since the american news is just boring. European at least sheds it in the light of how it affects us, however, all news is biased by the people reporting it.

point i wished to make. If we're all being hit by Israeli/American Propaganda, abt what goes on in the middle east, what makes you think you're not being hit by Pro-Palestinian Propaganda?

Sorry but what was that you posted to start with if it was not blatent propaganda?

If you are going to cut and paste other peoples work you could at least attribute it properly.

Its only good manners.