Alternative To US Landings at Shannon

Aww shucks...will we still be alive?
I'll hold onto the wheelbarrow, keep it from rusting and all that:p

Actually it would be interesting to be around in 30 years to see what communication is to-ing and fro-ing between Washington and dublin at the moment, regarding shannon and I suppose in relation to our position on the security council etc.
mm

Cork

I agree that Saddam is a nutcase, but i dont see how the fight against him - or any of the other nutcases out there for that matter - should be brought upon us, a neutral country.

Should we bury our hand in the sand with regard to the plight of the Iraqis?

Devalera ferryied airmen across the boarder when we were neytral during WW2.

While Swiss bank took German deposits.


I think we have international obligations. We should never turn our back on those living in fear.

gandalf

Cork you never answered this in another thread so I'll ask you here again.

Are you a law abiding person, do you respect the laws of other countries ?

Well the US authorities are ignoring Irish laws and basically wiping their feet in our sovereignty by transporting weapons without clearance required by our Constitution in Commercial Airplanes (and yes that even include personal arms!).

Even your old mate "Biffo" Cowen has admitted that they are carrying personal weapons !!! and yet he does nothing about this clear violation of our sovereignty (well that doesn't surprise me this is the party that has signed our sovereignty down the swannie with Nice last year!).

So do you think its right that the US authorities ignore Irish law. How many other countries laws and how many other resolutions do they ignore when it doesn't match up to their goals and ambitions. Well we already know all about Isreal.

Gandalf.

gandalf

Originally posted by Cork
Should we bury our hand in the sand with regard to the plight of the Iraqis?

No but we shouldn't send more of them to their graves because a American President & Administration with Revenge and Avarice in their hearts has decided to attack them.

Devalera ferryied airmen across the boarder when we were neytral during WW2.

While Swiss bank took German deposits.

A different time and a different conflict. But I do love the way all the conservative Drum Beaters always try and pair up the latest little enemy with Hitler.

I think we have international obligations. We should never turn our back on those living in fear.

We do its called being a active member of the United Nations and supporting all their resolutions and not just the ones that meet your foreign policy ambitions !!!

Gandalf.

Cork

Are you a law abiding person, do you respect the laws of other countries ?

Yes, I do - If the country is democratic.
I don't have much time for either royal families or dictators.

Well the US authorities are ignoring Irish laws and basically wiping their feet in our sovereignty by transporting weapons without clearance required by our Constitution in Commercial Airplanes

If this is the case - why cannot both members of the Green or Labour party challange the government in the Dail or take legal action?

There is no war declared on Iraq. Yet are we as a nation to not allow our airports to be used by military personnel?

Would this not be a poke in the eye for Irish americans and giving defacto support to a dictator who uses chemical weapons on his own people.

the party that has signed our sovereignty down the swannie with Nice last year!).

I was aganist the NICE treaty.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

What I want to ask and this is a general question not just specific to this thread if so many people hate America so much why don't they just boycott it. Don't buy anything american. Watch any american TV shows etc.

We are not Anti American as a country. But when you turn on the radio you often hear anti american sentiment.

If you do you are indirectly funding the war on terror and since you have such a problem with it you should take this action.

No, These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland and not under a dictator like Saddam.

It is so easy for them to get media coverage for their rantings - a freedom that they would not get in Iraq.

Vuk

Originally posted by Cork
There is no war declared on Iraq.

Shannon has already been used to support previous wars and their current movement is a strategic placement in preparation of another.
If you'd really like to nit-pick the details of neutrality, lets remember that these landings at Shannon are already part of a war, namely Bush's "War on Terrorism", whose details are not for this thread.

Originally posted by Cork
These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland

I was at the anti-war rally in Shannon today and I did not see any anti-American sentiment, in fact there were many Americans present to support our campaign.
Our issue is not with American people but with their President and his war machine. Our argument and this thread is also about the use of Shannon Airport being part of any war effort

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

imp

Actually if we didn't let them use Shannon they'd simply use in-flight refuelling from a supply plane that would be based in Britain. Its just more convenient and a little safer to use a real airport.

}:>

daveirl

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sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
No, These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland and not under a dictator like Saddam.

If these anti-Americans as you insist on calling them (despite people telling you that you haven't a clue) are Irish citizens (and pretty much all of them are)they have the right to live in Ireland. You may say they're lucky people compared to other people in (pick a country) but it's not a privilege - it's a right.

It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

Vuk

Originally posted by daveirl
And his issue is not with the Iraqi people but with their evil, cruel, dictator

While I will agree with your description of Saddam Hussein,as I'm sure Bush would also, but his campain is not about Husseins domestic policies but about the oil under his control.
Also our issues will not result with the loss and displacement of millions of lives, as with current sanctions and Bush's planned war.

Originally posted by sceptre
It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

Yeah, I agree Sceptre, it's a right, but it's one thats been indirectly consistently defended by larger countries, either having weapons, or going to war to defend it.

Imagine for instance, if the U.S,was mexico, with little world influence, comparatively, and the Eastern Block had defeated Hitler, where would we be now?

Or if , U.S influence world wide waned after WW2 and , Ireland succumbed to communism.

There wouldn't be any U.S planes landing at Shannon, but one things for sure, the Gardastazi would be out , rounding up any protesters and shipping them off to camp.

Thats , what I wonder, about, I mean, we are not just lucky to be living here, we are lucky to be in a society that, allows the kind of protest at Shannon.
By and large the U.S supports the survival of those types of societies, something people who call it evil, should ponder.
mm

Cork

It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

I agree but they don't have these rights in Iraq.

They are in fact living in fear.

What is the solution to rid themselves of Saddam?

Gavin

Originally posted by daveirl
We've gone a little off topic. Basically the only answer I've gotten is that we should stop them landing here regardless of the consequences. That we should let hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs.

What I want to ask and this is a general question not just specific to this thread if so many people hate America so much why don't they just boycott it. Don't buy anything american. Watch any american TV shows etc.

If you do you are indirectly funding the war on terror and since you have such a problem with it you should take this action.

As others have stated, it is not a matter of anti americanism, it is a matter of our government not adhering to the constitution of our country and our people.

And off the topic, to comment upon your american statements.

You say that the americans will withdraw their companies/investment etc. The fact that this threat is even used shows to what extent that america is leaning towards facism itself. The international outcry would be quite substantial should america follow through with such action.

To claim that America is invading iraq to save the people is laughable and remarkably naive. They are in it for the oil & money.

Irrespective to all of that, there are strong signs that the government has lied to us ( blatantly ) and broken the constitution ( again, blatantly ).

Gav

*cough*
Even, I have no doubts that the U.S and western Governments in general , would prefer that , Iraq's oil was being sold by a friendly government.

I think that , my approach to the U.S companies issue, anyhow, is that we should be mind full of the fact that they chose to set up here and the contribution they make to our economy.
It would be very easy, to *insult* them with protests that could be seen as anti american.
I do not have a problem with U.S troops filing through Shannon, while their planes are re-fueling, once they are not at war.

Their presence in the Gulf, shows at least one large State means business, when it comes to enforcing Un resolutions on wmd's.
mm

Wook

well after reading several newspapers i can say that people in Belgium have invaded a American Military base because they did theyre own inspection to know how many nukes we got in our little country..they all got arrested (off course).. How many weapons of mass destruction does Usa have ? to kill the planet a dozen times ? Would you trust a Bush if he was dark coloured and living in Iraq ?

Furthermore , the Usa is willing to leave Sadam by himself if he goes into Exile...They even said there would be no war tribunal...
Now tell me again ..what is this war for ? So the Usa can place a puppet as head of the country ? What about all the 'crimes' against humanity , Sadam did ? Usa says 'Tabula rasa ?'
Once again ..a nice little pointer that the people of Iraq and their policies is of no concern, the American president is there for different reasons. If it was for Justice and to trial the 'savage' they would not let him go.

Shannon airport is just a little fish...as i said before , if they don't land in Ireland , they probably will with their good friend 'Blair'

Wook

Originally posted by Man
*cough*
Their presence in the Gulf, shows at least one large State means business, when it comes to enforcing Un resolutions on wmd's.
mm

even when they plan to ignore the UN ?

they're not ignoring the UN. They just have very selective hearing...

daveirl

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gandalf

Originally posted by daveirl
but it's ok for Iraq to ignore the UN??

Or Isreal for that matter dave ???

Gandalf.

daveirl

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Victor

Originally posted by Wook
Furthermore , the Usa is willing to leave Sadam by himself if he goes into Exile...They even said there would be no war tribunal...
Now tell me again ..what is this war for ?

So it's about "regime change", not justice, not international law, not WMD. What is the logical result of regime change? A more concilatory Iraq, whether governed domestically or not. But one that is brought back into the fold of nations. One that can free up it's oil.

mike65

Just to show there's nothing new in the left having a go at FF regarding the US military and Shannon check this link I stumbled across while looking for something else.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie:80/plweb-cgi/fastweb?query3=&query7=&query8=&query6=&stday=&stmonth=&styear1=&styear2=&endday=&endmonth=&endyear1=&endyear2=&query5=US%20Troop%20Movements.&query4=&query=&query_rule=%28%28%24query1%29.le.DATE.le.%28%24query2%29%29%20AND%20%28%28%24query4%29%29%3ASPEAKER%20AND%20%28%28%24query5%29%29%3Aheading%20AND%20%28%28%24query6%29%29%3ACATEGORY%20AND%20%28%28%24query3%29%29%3Ahouse%20AND%20%28%28%24query7%29%29%3Avolume%20AND%20%28%28%24query8%29%29%3Acolnumber%20AND%20%28%28%24query%29%29&operator=and&sorting=none&TemplateName=prehit.tmpl&view=oho-view&dbname=Debates&query1=&query2=&numresults=25&simplesearch.x=36&simplesearch.y=8

Mike.

Turnip

Originally posted by mike65
Just to show there's nothing new in the left having a go at FF regarding the US military and Shannon check this link I stumbled across while looking for something else.
Mike.

It's the opposition's job to "have a go" at the government if they have any questions about how the country is being run or about whether the constitution is being violated. Do you think the constitution should be violated just because *you* believe the circumstances require it? If so why have a constitution at all? Because then it's worthless.

The fact the opposition - a political joke - would behave in precisely the same way as the present government if they were in power is neither here nor there. But, there's nothing wrong with asking questions. This *is* a democracy.

Snowball

Originally posted by daveirl
DELL, Intel, Boston Scientific, Motorola I could go on. American companies employ hundred's of thousands of people here. Don't kid yourself we need them.

Dell have their manufacturing and assemble plant here in Limerik and also their Europe call center here in Bray. Have u any idea what it would cost Dell to relocate? it would cripple the company, everything they do in europe in run from here.

Intel closed their manufaturing plant and a year or so are working on it to prepare for its opening soon. They closed because they got a sacre when they showed a loss but they had just over extended them selves and put too much into resarch.

Another is Microsoft, their eurpoean head quaters is in Dublin (Sandyford industral estate). If they moved they would have to build another head quaters and the one here is the largest they have outside the states. That cost would be astronomical.

And so on, big buisness do not unify their actions with that of any nation because its all about money

well i don't see too many large american corporations setting up companies in Iraq, do u?