The TATU and Christina Vid

yellum

The TATU music video of the two Russian school girls kissing is well popular with the lads, and now Christina A has a new ballad out with two guys frequently kissing in it.

Will this help with further bringing homosexuality into the mainstream ? Both videos are getting good rotation on the music channels and I think they're both pretty sweet videos. Makes me go "Awwww"

More of this kind of stuff on a daily basis will probably help get people used to the fact that there are homosexuals about.

eth0_

No. It's a pathetic marketing stunt. The single is catchy yes, but it would NOT be where it was if there wasn't a pair of 17 year olds in tiny skirts kissing in the rain on it.

That video was also made in 1999, when they were about 14. The fact a child psychologist put them together and put them in such a tacky attention grabbing video sickens me.

Things like this video and Christina Aguilera should NOT be on things like SMTV, that show is aimed at <11 year olds and quite frankly, little kids shouldn't be exposed to that sort of thing and have them questioning their own sexuality or thinking 'hmm, maybe I should dress like a whore too!'.

IMO, this display of lipstick lesbianism (the two girls I don't think have ever admitted they are lesbians) is obstructive to the acceptance of homosexuality. Which is a pity as it's a catchy song!

HerrLipp

yeah the TATU video is definitely not "brought to you by real lesbians", good song though. They're popular in east europe for raunchy stage shows - wet t-shirts and the like.

Like the christina aguilera video (the skinny people freaked me out a bit). What's with all gay couples on tv consisting of two guys who look identical though? Good looking guys though, it's good to see it being portrayed as normal, although my sister did turn up her nose in "eww they're gay" disgust at it.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

hunkypex

I don't want it brought into the mainstream in this way. Lets say how many people are gay or bi? does it have to get to the point where there are gay characters on tv in programes and the media more than there are in ordinary life just to make people more aware? Thats far fetched but videos like these to me give the message that its about: kissing and sex and variations of those. not having a long relationship, nope.

"IMO, this display of lipstick lesbianism (the two girls I don't think have ever admitted they are lesbians) is obstructive to the acceptance of homosexuality. Which is a pity as it's a catchy song!"

If people are gay or whatever then I thnk its for them to figure it out, I didnt need the Tv to tell me that i was bisexual. But children are being bombarded with this.

course theres the "I gots knocked up but i hate men now so I's a Lesbian now, I know it sister!"
go ricki!... go ricki!...

Shinji

Lets say how many people are gay or bi? does it have to get to the point where there are gay characters on tv in programes and the media more than there are in ordinary life just to make people more aware?

Er, no. So-called "positive" discrimination is still discrimination.

However, when was the last time you saw a character in a mainstream TV show who was gay - and whose primary motivations at all times, from the point of view of the scriptwriters, wasn't "oooh look at me I shag other men!"?

Yeah. Didn't think so.

I don't buy this idea that being exposed to the existence of homosexuality will make children "question" their own sexuality. Maybe it might make some of them more comfortable about it (most gay/lesbian people I know say they were aware that they were "different" in this respect by the age of 11 or 12).

Besides; without it... Where are the positive role models for the 10% (or whatever the hell) of our society that grows up homosexual?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

personally I don't see it as that a big a deal..

so what if children grow up homosexual (not entirely happy with that phrase, but meh) ? is that a bad thing? some people seem to think that the world will be over run with homosexuals if we don't keep a tight lid on this little pandoras box (hehe, he said box)

personally I would hope that the next, and all future generations of children (and people) will be more comfortable with their sexuality and the issue of sexuality, and be able to say that yes it is a beautiful thing to see two people in love regardless of their sex.

sex should only be an issue in procreation, not love imo.

eth0_

I don't really care either way if a kid grow up to be gay, but my point is that very young kids that shows like SMTV are aimed at shouldn't be exposed to overtly sexual content, or content that will make them question their sexuality.

Your childhood is supposed to be pretty innocent, a 9 year old say, shouldn't be considering whether he/she might be gay. That's what puberty is for.

One more thing - in this present climate, does the music industry not feel a little guilty sexualising the image of young girls in their school uniforms?

Next we'll have kids reading this:

Shinji

my point is that very young kids that shows like SMTV are aimed at shouldn't be exposed to overtly sexual content, or content that will make them question their sexuality

While I agree on the whole overtly sexual content thing, there's a very strong argument that says that /very/ young kids don't have a sexuality to question...

Your childhood is supposed to be pretty innocent, a 9 year old say, shouldn't be considering whether he/she might be gay.

Most nine year olds still think girls are yucky. I don't think wondering if they're gay is a problem here.

Besides, what you seem to be suggesting is that kids should basically have the existence of homosexuality hidden from them... Great, so more boys and girls who hit puberty and realise that they're attracted to people of their own gender can go through the fun and games of thinking they're the only person in the world like this or that the only other gay people in the world are freaks and outcasts.

A healthy society would be one in which kids would accept homosexuality as part of the fabric of society and a perfectly normal thing. It'd prevent a lot of very troubled youngsters from getting that way in the first place.

HerrLipp

Besides, what you seem to be suggesting is that kids should basically have the existence of homosexuality hidden from them... Great, so more boys and girls who hit puberty and realise that they're attracted to people of their own gender can go through the fun and games of thinking they're the only person in the world like this or that the only other gay people in the world are freaks and outcasts.

been there, not pleasant. seemed like all the gay people in the world were anywhere but cork.

Talliesin

ROFLMAO

Wow, lesbians (whether they are or not) can make ****e music too! Quick call out the National Guard.

I think it's good that the stereotype that if you're gay you are automatically going to be creative is being proven wrong by this pap.

Still maybe it'll encourage people to listen to good lesbian musicians like K. D. Lang or Zrazy

That said, I do agree that there is something wrong with the sexualisation of media aimed at children, but the I don't see anything happening with TATU that isn't common elsewhere except that they are of the same sex.

Bard

Originally posted by Shinji
However, when was the last time you saw a character in a mainstream TV show who was gay - and whose primary motivations at all times, from the point of view of the scriptwriters, wasn't "oooh look at me I shag other men!"?

Yeah. Didn't think so.

Actually that's not a bad description of the gay men in a few sitcoms, - most notably 'Spin City', where an un-necessarily large proportion of the gags involving the gay black character 'Carter Heywood' seem to centre around his homosexuality.

Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Talliesin

Okay I finally watched the video. I'd seen it before, but I hadn't actually paid it any attention. When it came on yesterday though I thought I'd actually pay attention to it, having this thread in mind.

So does it objectify and sexualise the two young singers? Not really. Now I have to say that while I am attracted to women as well as men, I've never really gotten the whole thing about being turned on by lesbians.
Should I see two women kiss I'm more likely to think it's sweet than arousing. Should I see two young girls kiss sexual thoughts just aren't going to come into it.
So perhaps this means I'm not the best person to analyze this, but then again maybe it means I'll be less biased.

Anyway, the song is pretty weak. It's good as that sort of music goes, by which I mean it's well-crafted. The hook musically is the panicky rush of the lines "all the things she said" and "running through my head" and it works well, it's even beginning to grow on me a bit. The only point of mentioning the song at all is the fact that it is about young lesbians, which hence justifies the video somewhat. [While writing this I downloaded the Russian version, which seems to have a bit more sincerity in the perfomance though when played to someone in the office who speaks Russian he assured me they are pretty equal in quality]

The video itself contains such gratuitous sexual acts as holding hands and kissing. I really don't care if young children see people holding hands and kissing. If the only sexual acts 17 year olds (or even 14 year olds) engaged in was holding hands and kissing we would have a lot less STD and teenage pregnancy. As far as sexual expression between the two goes, there's nothing that one could really disapprove of.

Of course that's not the only thing going on here. There is also the matter of the fact that we are looking at it, and the context.

Context: Wire fence, rain, school uniforms.

The wire fence has been mentioned in terms of the sexuality of the video. However I think that it's a bit of a stretch to infer any bondage symbolism from this. The inference of it being a symbol of oppression, repression, isolation and difference is much more clear in the video, especially in the context of the lyrics.

The rain looks cold and miserable. Like real rain. Ditto the snow. This isn't the wet-look of videos like the recent one from that Australian singer (whose name escapes me) appealing to people who think it's sex is better with chaffing and farting noises whenever your skin touches.
It's the kind of rain you want to get out of, as in they are in a situation they want to get out of, just like the lyrics suggest.

The school uniforms look like school uniforms, unlike the children-dressed-as-adults-dressed-as-children look of Britney Spears' debut. The skirts are rather short, but that's really it as far as the clothes being sexualised. The two girls are wearing school uniforms because that's what a lot of kids their age spend a lot of time wearing.

Finally the fact that we are looking at it.
<!--#include file="standard rants/gaze.inc"-->

Well the viewer can't not look at it and remain the viewer, so the question really is, "Is the affection between the two girl characters (whether they are really lovers or not, in the video they are actresses playing characters) for our benefit our theirs?".

I have to say I get the vibe that it is for theirs. There is one brief shot from a very low angle that seems like pure voyeurism and I would have removed from the video but apart from that it seems like an honest and sincere portrayal of puppy-love.

The overall symbolism is nothing we don't see in the likes of Oranges are not the Only Fruit and the fact that the latter was written by one of the finest writers alive is really the only thing that makes it different - a reason why you should favour it over this video, but not a reason why you should condemn the video.

Finally a bit about the context in which I saw it:

After it was Nelly's "Hot in Herre". This is essentially a 21st Century remake of If I said you had a beautiful body would you hold it against me except it lacks some of the subtlety of the latter. However the record-buying public are reasurred that it isn't naff by the deliberate mispelliing of the word "Here" (unless the surname "Herre" is the intended interpretation).

In case you haven't heard it I can summarise it thus:

1. Nelly states that it is hot. He suggests that the listener remove her clothes.
2. The female backing vocalists states that it is hot. She concludes that she should indeed remove her clothes.

To single out TATU as being inappropriately sexual when it sits beside Nelly's pæan to the seductive power of a broken thermostat is patently ridiculous.

I would be a lot more concerned that one of them "had" to lose nearly 10kg for one of the other videos. I don't want kids growing up with the media telling them that they "have" to lose a stone if they are over some imaginary desirable weight (it's not like either of TATU are obese), and yet all the controversy is over hand-holding and kissing! Children kissing ain't going to encourage eating disorders. Something is deeply screwy with our society's sense of priorities.

Talliesin

Originally posted by Bard
most notably 'Spin City', where an un-necessarily large proportion of the gags involving the gay black character 'Carter Heywood' seem to centre around his homosexuality.

The funny thing about that is that the only jokes that aren't about his being gay are about other characters only ever thinking of him in terms of his sexual orientation.

An example of the pot calling itself black?

Bard

Originally posted by Talliesin
The funny thing about that is that the only jokes that aren't about his being gay are about other characters only ever thinking of him in terms of his sexual orientation.

An example of the pot calling itself black?

Very good point Talliesin - I hadn't thought of that. - Thanks

sceptre

Happened on an old popbitch newsletter while I was doing a search in Outlook for something else

(newsletter dated 11/04/2002)

>> Russian Teen Lesbians To Conquer Pop! <<
Trevor Horn unveils "next Frankie"

Trevor Horn looks set to recapture his Frankie-era
glory with his latest production project - Tatu.

Tatu are a Russian girl duo, featuring Yulia and
Lena. (15 and 16 years old, respectively)

They were put together last year by a sinister
psychologist-turned-advertising-guru called Ivan
Shapovalov, who hit on a unique marketing
gimmick - teenage lesbianism.

Tatu's single Ya Soshla s Uma ("I've Lost My Mind")
tells the story of a lesbian love affair
between the two young girls. Needless to say, there
is a video which features them feeling each other up.

See Tatu dressed up as Lesbo-Britney school girls:
http://www.taty.ru/cgi-bin/foto/dypicgen.cgi?gallery=a

---

There you go now - you can blame Trevor Horn

Lemming

My two cents on this ......

Firstly, I read in an article somewhere (not online) not that long ago that the two girls had been seen with two guys on a night out, and despite the fact that they were clearly with them played them down snice they'd been noticed, a la .. "Oh, we're lesbians. We swear. These guys are just .. umm ... 'friends'"

I agree with eth0 on this in that kids should not be exposed to this. I don't care if you're trying to show them that LGB is perfectly normal. If that was the case then why aren't we showing them S&M movies in class to show that that is also perfectly normal too. As eth0 mentioned, that's what puberty is for.

And anyway, this duo is pure cynical marketing. This is the music industry we're talking about for f*cks sake. Some noble higher cause doesn't come into it, especially when the group is formed by some marketing/psychologist type person. It's lowest-common-denominator crap

Talliesin

Originally posted by Lemming
Firstly, I read in an article somewhere (not online) not that long ago that the two girls had been seen with two guys on a night out, and despite the fact that they were clearly with them played them down snice they'd been noticed, a la .. "Oh, we're lesbians. We swear. These guys are just .. umm ... 'friends'"

Where did you see them say they were lesbians?
To the best of my knowledge Charlotte Coleman and Anna Friel are both straight.
More directly comparable is the fact that Will Young is gay, but don't expect to hear him cover Tom Robinson's "Glad to be Gay" or Chumbawumba's "Homophobia" in the near future. Nope that boy's gonna keep singing nice radio-friendly songs about heterosexual romance.
Maybe they're lesbians, maybe they're straight, maybe bi, maybe they don't feel they fit any of those labels. It doesn't matter a damn. All that matters morally is that the video isn't pornographic and all that matters aesthetically is that it isn't very good.

I agree with eth0 on this in that kids should not be exposed to this.

Kids! Just say "no" to kissing and holding hands.

And anyway, this duo is pure cynical marketing. This is the music industry we're talking about for f*cks sake. Some noble higher cause doesn't come into it, especially when the group is formed by some marketing/psychologist type person. It's lowest-common-denominator crap

Insightful! You mean they aren't calling for a revolution? I never realised.

Lemming

Originally posted by Talliesin
Where did you see them say they were lesbians?

It's been implied with PLEEEENTY of innuendo left right and centre, and can you honestly say that you'd not noticed?

Kids! Just say "no" to kissing and holding hands.

Oh cut the theatrics. You know what I'm talking about. Showing this crap on shows which kids (under 11-ish) watch is just wrong. We're sexualising kids before they're old enough to be even aware of the opposite sex. Is that right? You're denying them their childhood and forcing adult themes on them earlier and earlier.

Talliesin

Originally posted by Lemming
It's been implied with PLEEEENTY of innuendo left right and centre, and can you honestly say that you'd not noticed?

Of course. Innuendo is so easy to generate that it often seems that straights fight a constant battle just to not have innuendo (look at the assumptions made about DeVore just because he won't say whether he is gay or not). Snogging another girl is bound to generate a lot of innuendo. If anything can be considered art about these girls it's the way they've managed to generate that innuendo with very little effort. That's an interesting thing to look at.

Oh cut the theatrics. You know what I'm talking about.

I've an idea, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Showing this crap on shows which kids (under 11-ish) watch is just wrong.

Ah, well. If it's "just wrong" we should stop :rolleyes:

We're sexualising kids before they're old enough to be even aware of the opposite sex.

But this is same sex. So it's OK

Is that right? You're denying them their childhood and forcing adult themes on them earlier and earlier.

Young children know that adults and older children kiss. I don't think a child ignorant of that fact would be more likely to grow up to have healthy and responsible sexual behaviour as an adult.

Gordon

I read today that Richard and Judy of the famous "Richard and Judy" show - a hotbed of cutting edge - finger-on-the-pulse societal discussion - have warranted a need for the vid to be banned.

Personally, what's the difference to this and that Britney Spears vid where she got off with some guy on a beach?

Talliesin

Gods! Are they afraid that it will compete with their features on frottage and plugs for Pfizer?
They aren't porn either (though a complaint that they were was once brought to the BSC!). Like TATU their shows are crap cleverly designed to hit "porn" buttons on people who want to have "porn" buttons hit, whether so they can be titilated, offended, or both.