Is DSL the broadband solution?

Xian

Originally posted by eircomtribunal

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As has been pointed out before, DSL can't be imported. It is also that price abroad due largely to significant competition from cable companies, something that is absent here.

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Why should we repeat that old and lame ODTR excuse? We have no cable competition, so we never can have prices like everywhere else? It is exactly the role of the regulator to act when competition is not doing the job!
Have a look at our DSL pricing in comparison with Europe:

We don't need to import DSL. We need our regulator to set a cost orientated wholesale access to DSL and not agree to the moonpricing set by the incumbent.

quote:

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If you think that Ireland's broadband needs will be addressed by DSL then you should think again.

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How then? Btw, ComReg have just published a useful paper about new developments on dsl: doc 03/01

quote:

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Focussing on DSL without developing a viable last mile alternative will keep Ireland in the monopolistic doldrums it is in today for years to come.

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?!?

Some musings bordering on a post:

The absence of a competing infrastructure is a fact.

The regulator's role is not to spoon- or force-feed every technolological advance to Eircom.

Eircom will resist any moves to provide new services using their infrastructure until they can be groomed to complement their existing revenue streams. Their intention will always be to never to cannibilize existing profits.

Relying on ADSL preserves this vertical integration - the control of the bandwidth bottleneck by the telcos.

The level of innovation in broadband delivery over copper is being outstripped by orders of magnitude, both in terms bandwidth and range, by wireless.

Our intention, therefore, should be to turn a disadvantage to an advantage - while everyone else is content (and therefore stuck) with their copper and cable, we could leap ahead with an innovative alternative last mile infrastructure.

The wireless medium never needs to be upgraded, unlike cable and copper.

As and example of this, take the document you quote and contrast it with a similar document from the same source some months ago (Speedy Rollout of Wireless Internet on the Way). Given a carrier-neutral wholesale interconnect service provider á la New Connections, which services (ceteris paribus) do you imagine will be made available sooner to the end user.

iwb

Given a carrier-neutral wholesale interconnect service provider á la New Connections, which services (ceteris paribus) do you imagine will be made available sooner to the end user.

Xian,
Who or what is New Connections? What the country really needs is just as you say here, a carrier neutral provider. I guess the ESBs telecom network is the nearest thing so far here. I'm sure there are entrepreneurs out there who would provide the last mile solution over wireless if they could buy the backhaul/backbone feed for a reasonable fee. Maybe Irish Broadband or IrishWISP would move outside the metropolis then.
IWB

bk

It is really a pity that NevadaTel / UTV haven't moved into wireless. I know that it is not their area of expertise, but with some investment, I'm sure they could cover most of Dublin and the other cities very quickly.

They might even be able to offer voice over IP services, could you imagine, being able to completely get rid of Eircom

This would really shake Eircom / Esat up and would provide the alternative competition of (e.g. cable) that we have been lacking all along.

Ah well, I will just keep day dreaming

De Rebel

Xian

I agree with your sentiment - it would be great to bypass the current shower(Eircom/ESAT) and do it differently.

But if Ireland as a country has proven so amazingly incapable of providing basic services like flat rate and dsl based broadband (which largely use current infrastructure and proven technology and are by and large non contentious) in anything like the same time/price frame as the rest of Europe, what frigging hope do we have of leading Europe in the widespread deployment of wireless broadband. NONE. Can you just imagine the years and years of drama over the masts (i know - this frequency doesn't fry the children’s brains), let alone the expenditure, planning issues, the setting up of another quango or ppp or whatever your having yourself to build and operate it, not to mention getting our dearly beloved politicos to change the regulations on signal strength etc. Forget it. If we get affordable flat rate of widespread affordable DSL it will be a reasonable size miracle. I’m not sure what size miracle nation wide wireless last mile will involve. But I don’t think miracles that size have been invented yet.

BigEejit

what frigging hope do we have of leading Europe in the widespread deployment of wireless broadband. NONE.

Not quite none ... but probably smaller than getting ubiquitous DSL:( apparently conreg and the gubmint would rather we gave lots of our hard earned cash to a monopoly than mandate a useful service that would have a lot of takeup (if the equipment was subsidised)

Can you just imagine the years and years of drama over the masts (i know - this frequency doesn't fry the children’s brains), let alone the expenditure, planning issues, the setting up of another quango or ppp or whatever your having yourself to build and operate it, not to mention getting our dearly beloved politicos to change the regulations on signal strength etc.

But thats the whole point isnt it ... doing all of these things is/should be easier and cheaper than getting DSL countrywide out the Rat and eshat ... the only problem is, as was pointed out earlier by "iwb", getting backhaul all over the country ... which is what the ESB have if I'm not mistaken (if they dont have fibre all over the country they could EASILY install it (note I didnt say it was cheaper, they just dont have the headaches of getting permission to go digging)).

All thats involved is conreg getting the finger out (heh, when I say "all thats involved" I of course mean doing the apparently impossible) and setting this up ... if conreg/the gubmint can cough up 200 million for MORE probably unused fiber surely they could reroute this to buy/rent ESB's network AND the equipment necessary for providing a carrier neutral end to end network.....(when I say end to end all that the new entrants just need to convince users to pony up for (or subsidise themselves) an aerial and the other bits and bobs to get a connection)

spongebob

The ESB will be a help when it is fully operational.......late 2003

Xian

Originally posted by De Rebel
If we get affordable flat rate of widespread affordable DSL it will be a reasonable size miracle.

This is my point exactly. For every incremental advance in broadband-over-copper you should expect to expend the same amount of effort and time as has been spent on FRIACO. How often are you prepared to do this? For how long are you prepared to lobby for increasingly marginal improvements in copper-based broadband delivery? Eircom are willing and able to fight every inch. Are you?

I’m not sure what size miracle nation wide wireless last mile will involve. But I don’t think miracles that size have been invented yet.

This is a possibility that circumvents a monopolist, it doesn't confront. The rules of engagement are completely different. If a synergy between government plans and the public and industry's needs can be shown, agreed upon, and acted on there is nothing to be "invented". Given a commitment on the full completion of the New Connections plan, the appointment of a carrier-neutral wholesale operator and additional backhaul from ESB all that is necessary is for incentives to be given to local "operators" to set up with their only requirement being to fullfil the Government's 3-year objective within their catchment area.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by iwb
Xian,
Who or what is New Connections? What the country really needs is just as you say here, a carrier neutral provider. I guess the ESBs telecom network is the nearest thing so far here. I'm sure there are entrepreneurs out there who would provide the last mile solution over wireless if they could buy the backhaul/backbone feed for a reasonable fee. Maybe Irish Broadband or IrishWISP would move outside the metropolis then.
IWB

I think the hope is that the ESB network will be one of 3 competing backbone networks connecting into the fibre rings (though most towns won't get 3). This way, a wireless provider, say, can switch between backbone networks without new digging. Without competing backbone networks, the fibre rings will simply be subsidised extensions to already existing vertically integrated companies (mainly Eircom in most of the country).

De Rebel

Originally posted by Xian

This is a possibility that ...... [/B]

I'm not disputing the possibilities, the benefits, the advantages, or anything else about the underlying reasons for using WLL to sort out the last mile. I am in 100% agreement about the principle of the thing.

Your right, it does bypass most of the existing infrastructure and the existing vested interests. Combined WLL with the ESB backhaul, or the New Connections/unlit fiber and make it available via an independent wholesaler and you have independent competition totally vertically separated from the existing market.

What I fail to see is any indication that it is likely to happen in this country. Where is the vision, the focus, the understanding, the commitment, the drive, the funds, the leadership necessary to deliver this? The usual alliance of bureaucratic inertia, political hob-goblinism and vested interests will see off any chance of it happening.

There are a few in DCMNR that understand the possibilities. But they will not win out. To deliver the panacea you are talking about right across the nation would put us in a world leading position on the scorecards. That would require us to do for WLL what South Korea did for DSL. Unfortunately I think that it is much more likely that we will comfortable occupy our usual position in such matters - IRELAND gets LAST PLACE in the World WLL tables.

I'm not a pessimist by nature, but its necessary to be realistic about such matters. I'd give it a 1 in 10 chance.