Shannon "peace" Protestors = Hypocrites

bertiebowl

I just read the report in the Irish Times yesterday about the Shannon "peace" protestors.

There was an interesting photo accompanying the article.

The photo showed the head of the parade carrying a huge banner with an extract from the Irish constitution about defense .

Behind the banner were about maybe 20-30 people carrying posters entitled "US Bombers off Irish soil" or word to that effect.

Joe Higgins (SWP) and John Gormless (Greens) were quoted about how our government is trashing our neutrality by allowing US troops on our soil.

My point is this;

In all over the above NOT ONE QUOTE mentions the Iraqi people themselves who are going to be bombed to bits sometime soon.

That's right - the sanctimonious "peace" protestors only seem to care about making US planes refuel in Manchester instead of Dublin.....

Xterminator

Funny thing that, about the bombing of the Iraqi people.

It seems that most of the protestors believe that only Saddam has the right to bomb, murder and poison the people of Iraq.
Sure didnt Saddam get a 99% majority vote in the last general election?

Isnt it great to be have the luxury of being able to criticise american foreign policy, while living under the protection of Nato.

Of couse our neutrality would protect us, if an aggressive power too a fancy to our country. Either that or the FCA.

And we'd all be critizing the americans aus Deutche if it werent for the american intervention in the last world war.

X

Wook

you should really try to forget about the world war. Otherwise you should blame the Greek for the wars of Troy and the early man because they might have taken your grand father.
It's not something that we should be thankfull for the next 2500 years... and it was an cooperative effort of the allies . not just the Americans.

dahamsta

It seems that most of the protestors believe that only Saddam has the right to bomb, murder and poison the people of Iraq.

Dy'a know something, I'm sick to the eye teeth of hearing facetious, thoughtless, kneejerk crap like this. Do you think these people are trying to protect Saddam Hussein or something? Because it certainly couldn't be that they're not trying to protect the people of Iraq, unless you're so utterly clueless that you think that the only people who won't really be harmed by war in Iraq is the people.

And bertiebowl, exactly what do you expect people to gain from opposing US refueling in Shannon? Do you think they're all up there for the sole reason of protecting or neutrality? Perhaps you should go there and talk to a few people before you start preaching about their motives.

adam

DadaKopf

Uh... or you could put it this way. Opposing US military use of Shannon is actually direct action against war in Iraq. While shouting about our popular opposition to the war is an important democratic right and tool, it's just that - shouting. It's almost impossible to confront the situation and change it directly.

The protest at Shannon isn't selfish. It isn't forgetting the people of Iraq. The protesters at Shannon are opposing an element of the military buildup which is taking place on our own soil, and which the Irish government and State is therefore complicit in. By opposing our own government's policy, we're opposing the whole war.

This tactic achieves two things: it opposes the war itself through the tactics of regular street protest using the power of numbers and words and it challenges an element of the buildup that is taking place in our own (allegedly neutral) country through direct action. It's not either/or, it's both. On both counts, the war is being opposed and the people are not being forgotten.

And don't assume that because protestors oppose Bush's war that they're in support of Saddam's regime. That's just ludicrous.

Originally posted by Wook
you should really try to forget about the world war. Otherwise you should blame the Greek for the wars of Troy and the early man because they might have taken your grand father.
It's not something that we should be thankfull for the next 2500 years... and it was an cooperative effort of the allies . not just the Americans.

The thing is though, there are still people alive who fought in the second world war, many of them Irish-so not as easy to forget as something that happened 2500 years ago.

Even events 2000 odd years ago, aren't so easily forgotten either, and countless millions proclaim their thanks for them, the Birth of Jesus Christ being an example.

The U.S "lend-lease" programme, and the convoys of supplies across the Atlantic, as well as their huge troop involvement in World war two, did play an enormous part in keeping the Nazi grip off Ireland, it wouldn't have happened without them.
mm

bertiebowl

Opposing US military use of Shannon is actually direct action against war in Iraq.

Ehh no it not actually, the Irish government is obliged under the UN resolution relating to weapons of mass destruction to provide assistance to the US military.

Opposing US military use of Shannon is nothing but, well...opposing US Military use of Shannon, a completely different agenda from opposing the US military invading Iraq and bombing them to bits......

Thus I conclude that the agenda for a lot of the Shannon protestors is not against war in Iraq but anti-americanism.....get 'em out type stuff really

scojones

I was in the protest in Shannon and there were many signs saying stuff like "One dead iraqi women is ONE TOO MANY!" I can't remember the rest of them cause there were hundreds. - this is a reply to the first post

Vuk

Originally posted by bertiebowl
That's right - the sanctimonious "peace" protestors only seem to care about making US planes refuel in Manchester instead of Dublin.....

Bertiebowl, your view of the protestors and of what the protest was really about, is flawed.
You read a report, then drew your opinions from someone else’s reporting.
You obviously didn't read about the Iraqi woman at the protest who spoke about the need for Iraq to liberate itself from Saddam but not with US bombers.(The will power of the Iraqi people to fight it's own regime is not helped by current sanctions)
Or read what the other speakers of the day had to say about the needless loss of life that would ensue in the event of war?
Or see the photos of the Anti-War posters, which were carried by many people.
I have seen with my own eyes, what US bombs can do, I'm not just talking about the physical damage but the psychological change also. In short, any military campaign in Iraq will only strengthen anti-US sentiment and therefore Saddam Hussein's power.

The Gopher

You think the Irish lot are bad?Take a look at the Washington D.C peace rally.Among the speakers were such well respected figures as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.While Jackson may have done his bit for civil rights and peace this lot seem to forget the corruption,the preaching of family values while recently having an illegitimate child by his secreatary(I think hanging around with Bill Clinton gave him some ideas).
The man is a democrat and therefore would naturally criticise anything Bush does.Do you think he would have appeared if old friend Bill Clinton was still in office and planning this war?Jackson doesnt even have any support in the black community any more because of his hypocracy-now he has been adopted by the We Hate Bush movement.

And then there is Al Sharpton,sh1t stirrer extradonaire.Here is a link highlighting his services to the world-Ill paste the best bits

http://www.rachellucas.com/sharptonkarma.htm

"Nineteen years ago, Al Sharpton, the nefarious black activist, was videotaped discussing a cocaine deal. He appears in his full Pimp Glory Regalia, complete with cowboy hat, and nods in agreement throughout the tape as an undercover FBI agent asks him specific questions about lining up a big giant coke shipment."



Coke dealing?You thought that Irish priests were a rotten lot


And as for the Shannon protestors I saw that among the speakers was that woman who always seems to be at the centre of just about any major incident in Palestine.I mean,she was holed up with Arafat in his compound during the siege and got shot at least once.Pardon me if you will but this seems more like attention seeking than anything else.

bonkey

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Ehh no it not actually, the Irish government is obliged under the UN resolution relating to weapons of mass destruction to provide assistance to the US military.

And exactly what WMDs would these be? The ones that the UN has singularly failed to find to date....despite the help of intelligence from the nations who claim to know that Saddam has such weaponry.

This is just more of the usual dancing about the issue that is typical of an issue like this.

If Ireland wants to allow Americans to carry armaments through our nation, then there is a course of action which should be followed. The situation is nowhere extreme enough to merit dispensing with our own laws - there are other viable alternatives open to the US.

It is not anti-American, nor is it anti-war, anti-Iraqi-people, pro-Saddam, or any other such idiotic moniker that gets labelled to anyone who dares to as much as question the imperfection of the proposed solution or propose what are arguably "better" alternatives.

What the Shannon protestors are doing is making a stand to uphold their constitutional rights, exercising their various rights such as freedom of speech, and making a stand to uphold the very ideals that America is supposed to be fighting for in this whole "war on terror" farce.

Obviously, though, once you have the freedoms, they are no longer important enough to be worth upholding. Its only those who lack them who need to be forced into having them.....presumably so that they too can have them ignored when convenient.

I would argue that it is the Irish and American governments who are hypocrites in this case, not the Shannon protestors. There is no requirement for our constitution to be undermined or ignored in this way, and therefore we can only conclude that it is a matter of convenience.

Trample on the rights of the free to free the rights of the trampled upon - and this is being billed as hyprocacy of the protestors??? Come on.

jc

mike65

When the Soviet Airforce was transporting arms and men to Angola
via Shannon were the anti-war brigade intersted?

Mike.

alastair

Al Sharpton, who I've actually come to admire despite everything hasn't been proven to have done ANYTHING with coke. G.W.Bush on the other hand is a confirmed ex coke consumer. I'd put my money with Sharpton out of those choices.

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Ehh no it not actually, the Irish government is obliged under the UN resolution relating to weapons of mass destruction to provide assistance to the US military.

Do you have a quote link for this? Surely it would be phrased as 'every country shall assist the inspectors in every way possible' or some such (less burdensome) wording.

gandalf

Originally posted by mike65
When the Soviet Airforce was transporting arms and men to Angola
via Shannon were the anti-war brigade intersted?

Mike.

Mike do you have something to back this up maybe

Gandalf.

Victor

Originally posted by gandalf
Mike do you have something to back this up maybe

Gandalf / Mike, I think we need to deal with the here and now. I can't confirm for certain that the Soviets did this, but Aeroflot was de facto the long range transport arm of the Soviet military.

Aeroflot were and are regular Shannon customers. Official Irish policy during the 1970s-1980s was to do nothing to endanger this business (to the point of refusing asylum to anyone off an Aeroflot aircraft - they were "quietly" bundled back on the plane).

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Opposing US military use of Shannon is actually direct action against war in Iraq.

Well, you've confirmed for me what I've long suspected ............ that the real determination of the Shannon group is motivated by an anti-American and anti-war sentiment rather than a protest against the perceived trespass of Irish netrality. A coalition of leftist orientated groups with a heritage of anti-American sentiment and ageing,aimless CND types with a defined agenda have realised that to achieve maximum public sympathy and support it is profitable to protest under the "Neutrality" banner. This is the hypocracy. By all means protest against war , any war, but if the Shannon group could please desist from insulting our intelligence I would be grateful. Armaments and soldiers under many flags have been transitting thru Shannon from the time of the Korean war.

If I could ask a related question, please. If subsequent to January27th, the UN Security Council does sanction military action in Iraq, do the neutrality protests in Shannon then become invalid?

Turnip

Originally posted by mike65
When the Soviet Airforce was transporting arms and men to Angola
via Shannon were the anti-war brigade intersted?

Mike.

Most of them weren't even born then in fairness. Have you a source for this and was the info known at the time or did it take years to come out? Somehow I find it absurd that the US would allow Ireland to offer any significant assistance to the soviets, unless they found it a useful opportunity for intelligence gathering.

mike65

I have to admit to not having any url to point you at, its just been
something I've "known" for years, being old enough to remember
the later proxy wars of the 60s/70s/80s in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

I must have heard it/read it somewhere in the distant past...

Mike.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Well, you've confirmed for me what I've long suspected ............ that the real determination of the Shannon group is motivated by an anti-American and anti-war sentiment rather than a protest against the perceived trespass of Irish netrality. A coalition of leftist orientated groups with a heritage of anti-American sentiment and ageing,aimless CND types with a defined agenda have realised that to achieve maximum public sympathy and support it is profitable to protest under the "Neutrality" banner. This is the hypocracy. By all means protest against war , any war, but if the Shannon group could please desist from insulting our intelligence I would be grateful. Armaments and soldiers under many flags have been transitting thru Shannon from the time of the Korean war.

You've got it the wrong way around. Irish law sets neutrality as a precedent. A section of the Irish population opposes the use of Shannon airport as they believe it's a breach of Irish neutrality (the actual legal technicalities are very muddy) while at the same time opposing the war. Then people explain, in their own respective ways, why they oppose the war. I don't see any hypocrisy anywhere.

bertiebowl

Trample on the rights of the free to free the rights of the trampled upon - and this is being billed as hyprocacy of the protestors??? Come on.

This is my point.

If you see my first post upon my reading of a report in the Irish Times (a paper not noted for being too biased one way or another) I came to the conclusion that the protestors in Shannon are protesting against the US military being on our soil

I also concluded that the Protestors are not protesting against the fact that the rights of the "trampled on" are being trampled on i.e the rights of the Iraqis to be not bombed to bits by good ole Uncle Sam.

Ergo Majority of Protestors = hypocrites

Wook

-off topic-

Originally posted by Man
The thing is though, ..... mm

If you think like this fine ..but then you would still point the fingers to all countries who did something ****ed up..
America = Vietnam (don't hear the americans bring that up in many discussions)
France = Nuclear testing
Uk = Too much too mention
Etc Etc

Cork

[Edited as these comments are adding NOTHING to the discussion ! - Gandalf]

Vuk

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Well, you've confirmed for me what I've long suspected ............ that the real determination of the Shannon group is motivated by an anti-American and anti-war sentiment rather than a protest against the perceived trespass of Irish netrality

I would really like to know, where DadaKopf or anyone in this thread has expressed anti-American sentiment. Bertiebowl called the protestors 'hypocrites' because in his opinion they only cared about the neutrailty issue. Now you claim that the protestors simply being anti-American and anti-war while ignoring the neutrailty issue?
The protest is about both issues of neutrality and war.
I have said this in other threads, there was no anti-american sentiment expressed at the protest last Saturday and there were American people involved in the protest.

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Armaments and soldiers under many flags have been transitting thru Shannon from the time of the Korean war.

Yes, they have, does it make it right?

Snowball

Originally posted by bertiebowl
My point is this;

In all over the above NOT ONE QUOTE mentions the Iraqi people themselves who are going to be bombed to bits sometime soon.

That's right - the sanctimonious "peace" protestors only seem to care about making US planes refuel in Manchester instead of Dublin.....

If you actually read what the Shannon peace protests are about you might be able to understand what is going on instead of making statments about subjects that u know very little about and have not taken the time to back them up.
The people at the Shannon Peace camp are protesting against the whole thing but because they live in Ireland they are showing Bush that Ireland will not stand for the way he treats the world as his playground. If Ireland say to Bush that his plains (while involved in the military build up around Iraq and/or the potencial war) can not land on our soil it sends a very clear message to him and the UN security councel (who realy are the only ones who can stop Bush) that we the Irish do not agree with this and we will not suport him or keep quiet about it.
You have to do these things one by one and a good place to start is the easiest place to start, ur own house. If Bush hears the protests from the Irish people at the moment he can still say ... "that they must be in the minority because we can still use their airports, cant we?" but if he is kicked off this Island then maybe he cant make excuses and dismiss us so easily. Also if we take a stand a a nation maybe others will to. Its all about doing what you can.

bertiebowl

If Bush hears the protests from the Irish people at the moment he can still say ... "that they must be in the minority because we can still use their airports, cant we?" but if he is kicked off this Island then maybe he cant make excuses and dismiss us so easily.

Don't make me laugh - the Americans will just land in Manchester, scotland or Germany to refuel instead.......even if the protestors at Shannon ever succeed in banning US flights through Ireland it will have zippidy do dah effect on stopping war in the middle east........

That's why those Shannon "peace" protests are at best a waste of space and at worst an excuse for anti-American bashing.

If they really cared about stopping war, the best way to do so would be to lobby American people in America who in turn would put pressure on President Butthead to stop.

That's why I believe a lot of the dreadlocked nose ringed types living in Wigwams outside Shannon have a different agenda from "peace"

The Saint

It only takes one to get the ball rolling. Imagine if Ireland stopped US military aircraft from using Shannon. Do you not think that other countries that are more opposed to the war (France, Germany, Turkey, ect) may follow suit. What about the entire EU? Do you think this would make a statement to Dubya? I think the EU needs to start isolating itself from the US ASAP or else we are going down with them. I will have no sympathy for any attacks on America if this war goes ahead. They are the most morally devoid and corrupt country in the western world and even other rogue states would compare favourably to them.

Snowball

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Don't make me laugh - the Americans will just land in Manchester, scotland or Germany to refuel instead.......even if the protestors at Shannon ever succeed in banning US flights through Ireland it will have zippidy do dah effect on stopping war in the middle east........

Wrong, the more people who take a stand the more that will follow. Most people are sheep and will follow the biggest and loudest but if we make enough noise we may pull more people into saying something to which in turn may bring more people to protest and so on. Think of it as the school playground bully, no one will say anything because... someone will, or they are scared or they dont know what to do but when one boy or girl says something another comes to their aid and them more and more. We all know that Bush is wrong in the way he is doing this, weather or not we belive that the principal of the thing may be right (I dont though, just think he is a bully) he is going about it the wrong way and pushing too many people around. Someone needs to take a stand and say something. We should be that someone!!

Originally posted by bertiebowl
That's why those Shannon "peace" protests are at best a waste of space and at worst an excuse for anti-American bashing.

If they really cared about stopping war, the best way to do so would be to lobby American people in America who in turn would put pressure on President Butthead to stop.

That's why I believe a lot of the dreadlocked nose ringed types living in Wigwams outside Shannon have a different agenda from "peace"

I hope that you can come up with a better argument then that.

Sticks and stones.....

Snowball

Originally posted by The Saint
It only takes one to get the ball rolling. Imagine if Ireland stopped US military aircraft from using Shannon. Do you not think that other countries that are more opposed to the war (France, Germany, Turkey, ect) may follow suit. What about the entire EU? Do you think this would make a statement to Dubya? I think the EU needs to start isolating itself from the US ASAP or else we are going down with them. I will have no sympathy for any attacks on America if this war goes ahead. They are the most morally devoid and corrupt country in the western world and even other rogue states would compare favourably to them.

well said

bonkey

Originally posted by bertiebowl
I also concluded that the Protestors are not protesting against the fact that the rights of the "trampled on" are being trampled on i.e the rights of the Iraqis to be not bombed to bits by good ole Uncle Sam.

Ergo Majority of Protestors = hypocrites

Which would be a semi-valid point if, in fact, the protestors were ignoring the Iraq issue entirely.

However, you'll find several posters arguing here that these people are using the whole issue as another[ means to protest against a war they are already protesting about.

Which kinda undermines your point entirely, unless yiyu want to claim that all of those other posters are simply making it up or fibbing to us.

jc

Does anyone know, if an opinion poll has been taken yet on the troops through Shannon issue?
It amazes me, if there hasn't been one.

I notice, GW Bush's approval rating is dropping towards 50% now, but that will rise, if, theres another Terrorist attack there.

what do ye all think of Tony Blairs decision, to send 30,000 troops to the Gulf ( Can you imagine the uproar, if for some reason they had to file through Shannon:D )

The Uk must surely now be sinking Billions into this campaign and are not explaining, why-except the little we already know.


It's going to be interesting, what sort of evidence, if any turns up on Sadam's activities...

I'm reserving judgement untill, evidence, is presented.I'd find it hard to believe that Tory and Labour M.P's would by and large follow, the U.S line on Sadam unless they had some inkling that something was up.
If there is some concrete and damning evidence , which is waiting to be put in the public domain,it will be needed before a war.

mm