Croke Park - Open its doors to evil soccer ?

yop

I can see your point as regards the provision of parks etc to improve peoples health, but to say you would "sort of" prefer to see money moved away from health, education and transport into a project to build a stadium that in reality is not needed is like saying that if some people do not want non nationals using the M50 then we will build them a new motorway!! :rolleyes:

The thing about it is that Croke Park WILL be opened up in the very near future, so for the majority of us who want this situation will have to bide our time. All dictatorships come to an end, the GAA will be another

Imposter

I never said anything about moving money away from those areas. There's always a small change in how money is spent. Not allocating extra money to those services you mention often leaves some funds for other areas/projects. That is all.

As for the GAA yes things need to change wrt it's structures. It doesn't mean Croker will be opened to anyone who wants it though. I would be pretty sure most GAA people who want it open would not want other games played there during the GAA season. That rules out using it for soccer qualifiers in August/September. It would also rule out hosting Euro Championships or rugby world cups there. Is that wrong too?

yop

That rules out using it for soccer qualifiers in August/September. It would also rule out hosting Euro Championships or rugby world cups there. Is that wrong too?

Well obviously I agree that GAA will have total precidence (sp!) over any other sport but IF they play other sports then if a clash occurs what will happen.
I would presume that if the other sports get to play in Croker then Landsdowne will be sold, the funds pumped into eliminating the debt of Croke Park and then all sports will share the same ground.
I cannot see there been too many conflicts in fixtures. There are plenty of grounds all over the UK that ground share and this works fine, why would Croker will be any different

Imposter

Originally posted by yop
Well obviously I agree that GAA will have total precidence (sp!) over any other sport but IF they play other sports then if a clash occurs what will happen.
I would presume that if the other sports get to play in Croker then Landsdowne will be sold, the funds pumped into eliminating the debt of Croke Park and then all sports will share the same ground.
I cannot see there been too many conflicts in fixtures. There are plenty of grounds all over the UK that ground share and this works fine, why would Croker will be any different

Other sports will probably eventually be allowed in Croker but I can't see Landsdowne been sold. That would be stupid in the extreme. That would mean the 4 major sports in Ireland to have to share 1 stadium for all there top games. Residents (who aren't all that happy at the moment) would have to put up with at least 8 more games a year. Plus if the GAA were to get precedence it would place major restrictions on Rugby and Soccer which is also in neithers best interest.

Another point is that Irish Rugby own Landsdowne. There hardly likely to sell it and lose one of their major assets just to pay off Croke Park debts.

Mighty_Mouse

Is it possible for anyone to listen to common sense. I'm as upset at the FAI as anyone that soccer matchs will have to be played abroad but realise that it has absolutely nothing to do with the GAA.

Whats backward about the GAA!!!! They certainly have the morst "forward " looking stadium in the country anyways!!

Again only 8 counties proposed this. This means 24 didnt !! so yes the democracy argument looks dodgy. Does 8 rule 24??? (including overseas offices which didnt support it)

Its been debated before. Are we going to have it every yr til its passed? (a bit too berti'ish to be democratic there!)

The stadium can be utilised in a better way for the GAA organnisation by using it for more GAA events etc ...........

The GAA hasnt been asked for the stadium

Soccer stadium wont be built if they do open it

etc etc etc

actually i coulnt be arsed because at the end of the day , ye can do nothing about it for another year

xlex

I'm a card carrying memebr of the GAA who loves a game of soccer. I want our national teams to play in Ireland whilst Landsdowne is rebuilt.

I watched two members of the GAA (Primetime) proclaim that clubs didn't want Croke Park opened because it may lead to local pitches being opened. I, as a member was never asked or had the chance to vote. Our representitives have voted on our behalf.

Presidents, who have no power in todays GAA have taken a decision to overrule 8 motions and thus denied a ballot on the future of the ground. I can accept congress defeating the motions but these past presidents? It's not democratic.

The bylaws of the GAA are outdated, it's a backward organisations which have robbed local communities of finance to build a fantastic stadium. From a conbination of grants, lotto and monster draws they have attained high standard stadiums and it is due recognition of the money generating nature of the GAA.

Did this money make it's way down to the clubs? No, it made it's way up. That Cork man on primetime reckoned that no club would sell out for the €250 which would make it's way down to each club from a foreign game in Croker. Well Corkman, I don't know which club he's in but every penny that the GAA clubs can have the better because so much is put on the shoulders of the men and women who flog the local GAA lotto to keep a club running from week to week that something has to give.

Every €1M turned down from a 'foreign' sport is €1M less that clubs could use to better effect... Fuck the GAA and the two tier democracy which exists. The St. Patrick's GAA ground in Longford is far removed from the Croke Park's of this islands. The forget that it is the communities that built the GAA, and it's the communities who suffer to keep the GAA alive. Why deny them this financial assistance?

Mighty_Mouse

Dont tell me that the GAA dont drill every penny of profit back into the organisation and the clubs!!!!!!

The point here is the problems of opening the doors of corker to soccer are huge. To covince yourself that that "while soccer stadium is being built" is crazy.

Not until the paint is dry on a new soccer stadium can you be sure that it will be built.

A few drawings and ideas certainly arent enough. I means FFS the FAI dont even have a solid plan with funding to build yet never mind the GAA opening its doors!!

FAI couldnt even mange to get a PLAN together in time to make opening the doors of croker realistic!!! Your ****ing crazy if you trust a government commitment (which hasnt been given) to pay for a soccer stadium!!!!!

So until they get their acti together............................long walk , short pier.

ps
Im a fan of soccer too but blame the FAI completly. My frustration is not taken out on the amateur organisation which is the GAA. I mean persecuting the GAA for being successful against the professional sports is just idiotic

Draupnir

If the whole thing is about banning "foreign games" because of some ridiculous attempt to hark back to the days when we were ruled by Britain then I think its sad that the old bogmen who are obviously making these decisions and running the GAA can decide to discriminate against Irish people.

"Ah yeah, sure we got rid of the Brits and we thought that was great but we aren't happy with that, we still have to be the real Irish people, the ones who ate lumps of ****e at the side of the road in the famine and speak irish all the time, so if you wanna play "English" games then do it somewhere else, we are gonna make you out to be some sort of unpatriotic, English loving bollox".

Anyone who thinks that the GAA wont let Rugby or Soccer be played there is crazy if they think its for any reason other than that the games are supposedly British in origin.

Yavvy

thats quite the closed minded view of the issue IMO. Sure there may still be people within the GAA with that mindset but there are much more relevant reasons for and against soccer/rugby at Croke Park... have a read back through this thread...some excellent points made.

Imposter

Originally posted by xlex
I'm a card carrying memebr of the GAA who loves a game of soccer. I want our national teams to play in Ireland whilst Landsdowne is rebuilt.

Most people do but soccer/rugby aren'tz definitely building it yet and neither have ever asked the GAA for use of Croker, at least themselves.

I watched two members of the GAA (Primetime) proclaim that clubs didn't want Croke Park opened because it may lead to local pitches being opened. I, as a member was never asked or had the chance to vote. Our representitives have voted on our behalf.

Firstly I didn't see this. Secondly you (should have) voted your representative from your club to the county agm. From there each county elects it's delegates for congress. That's the system that's in place at the moment. It may not be perfect but has served a useful purpose to date. Do you want every member balloted on every little change?

Presidents, who have no power in todays GAA have taken a decision to overrule 8 motions and thus denied a ballot on the future of the ground. I can accept congress defeating the motions but these past presidents? It's not democratic.

They obviously do have the power to veto motions that don't fall within the rules. That's the rules and obviously enough people decided it at the time so it was democratic.

The bylaws of the GAA are outdated, it's a backward organisations which have robbed local communities of finance to build a fantastic stadium. From a conbination of grants, lotto and monster draws they have attained high standard stadiums and it is due recognition of the money generating nature of the GAA.

The by-laws may be outdated but there is no way you could call the organisation backward (whatever about some of it's members). The GAA never robbed local communities of anything. The GAA has progressed to having modern facilities and these come at a cost. That includes a lot of fantastic club facilities as well as croker. Imo this reflects well on the members and fans alike who have supported the organisation by going to matches and by supporting local clbs and counties with draws and whatnots. To think that the facilities that are now in place in most of Ireland, would be there now, were Croker not redeveloped and the cash diverted to these projects is naive in the extreme. How would it look on an organisation that would also have a crumbling HQ in which to showcase it's games?

Did this money make it's way down to the clubs? No, it made it's way up. That Cork man on primetime reckoned that no club would sell out for the €250 which would make it's way down to each club from a foreign game in Croker. Well Corkman, I don't know which club he's in but every penny that the GAA clubs can have the better because so much is put on the shoulders of the men and women who flog the local GAA lotto to keep a club running from week to week that something has to give.

I don't know who this Corkman was but if it's who I think it might be he does have quite vocal and usually outdated views on a lot of subjects, most of which I dissagree on.

Every €1M turned down from a 'foreign' sport is €1M less that clubs could use to better effect... Fuck the GAA and the two tier democracy which exists. The St. Patrick's GAA ground in Longford is far removed from the Croke Park's of this islands. The forget that it is the communities that built the GAA, and it's the communities who suffer to keep the GAA alive. Why deny them this financial assistance?

I don't know what planet you're on regarding this debate but if soccer was let in, the money earned from it would go towards Croker or so all the talk has focused on to date, so the clubs won't see it.

xlex

Firstly I didn't see this. Secondly you (should have) voted your representative from your club to the county agm. From there each county elects it's delegates for congress. That's the system that's in place at the moment. It may not be perfect but has served a useful purpose to date. Do you want every member balloted on every little change?

I should say that I believe that I would be asked to vote on a local issue. And I trust our representives to carry the general feeling forward to County congress. The issue was raised and passed, Longford's motion was one of the 8 motions defeated. There's no problem here as regards the structure and the methods of doing business. I accept that you may not have understood this from my first post.

Primetime last night interviewed this Corkie and Cyril Lyons and their points were based on €250 making it's way down to each GAA club (and thus no sellout) and in both instances a debate on the difficulties on the local GAA preventing soccer in their local pitches. This was never an issue, why make it one?

This motions committee was implemented recently and I can't believe 1 out of 8 motions didn't survive.

Realistically, County boards expect a portion of a clubs gate and percentages of percentages make their way to the top. For every €1M taken from soccer and rugby then €1M less can be gleaned from county boards and clubs, and returned towards the communites who have fundraised and broken backs to provide today's facilities.

Croker is fantastic, but between clubs (which cost somewhere around €50,000pa to run) with difficulities in financing themselves and Croke park raising the finance for this magnificance (all within the same organisation) there is a vacuum which separtates the top from the bottom and where past presidents sit and wait to choke any controversial motions which come around.

I hope that as a sports follower that the government in partnership with the IRFU and FAI get Landsdowne Road refurbished. I'm hoping, not believing that it will be finished and I truely think that the GAA should make their own decisions but I can't believe not one of those eight motions wasn't good enough to put to Congress. Thats what disappoints me.

Imposter

Sorry I mistook your last post.

I think 1m got from soccer or rugby wouldn't change the way the GAA raises money at any level. Clubs (and the organisation) can never have enough money.

I agree with your point on the motions though. Clare actually sought advice on how to word it so that it would be find it's way to congress. Were any reasons given for why they were refused?

As I said yesterday though, I also don't think it's something that should be a motion every year. It failed in 2001 and 2002. Give it a rest for a few years imo.

Mighty_Mouse

Was there an article in the Indo today saying that public support for the opening of Corker is falling?:D

Does anyone have the details of this etc

gudpony

i thing they should open croke park to other sports but only to a certain point. They shud allow the soccer to be played in croke park until landstown is finished..

Johnny_the_fox

BBC

Ulster final for Croke?

Croke Park can now accommodate 80,000 spectators
This season's Ulster decider could be staged at Croke Park if Tyrone and Armagh were in opposition.

The GAA director-general Liam Mulvihill said in his annual report that if the Ulster council agreed then there was no reason to play the final in Dublin.

Another sign that GAA needs money...

I wonder could this be the start of the GAA making of a move towards opening its doors... as they need the money... ?? <i know its only the Ulster Final and not a foreign sport*.. but you have to wonder...>


*and NO.. us Northerns arent classified as foreigners

Mighty_Mouse

IMO Johnny they're not. Not this year anyways.

I hope that more initiatives like this follow though exploiting Croker to its full potential for all the players who ultimate is to play in croker.

More and more GAA events and games will and should be played their before soccer and rugby

Yavvy

I think its time to unsticky this thread.

because while the agrument remains the same a lot has changed and I think a fresh discussion might be in order. Its fairly old and there isnt many fresh ideas comments to make. and finally because its about 6 or seven pages long..which is tough work to read

However the pole speaks for its self and I think its an accurate reflection of the question I asked.

I think Rule 42 will be discussed next year and I think we will start to see the GAA move towards opening HQ to other sports.

Alan.

Villain

Originally posted by Alany
I think Rule 42 will be discussed next year and I think we will start to see the GAA move towards opening HQ to other sports.

Too little too late:mad:

Yavvy

agreed, however I do think Croke Park has a part to play in non GAA sports in the future.

Imposter

Glad to see thread is unstickied. For me we were getting the same opinion over and over from soccer fans who have no time for the GAA.

Wrt Croker looks like Sean Kelly is doing his best to abolish the rule and give control on the use of croker to the Central Council. This for me is by far the best idea, although it is quite likely that they would still block soccer and rugby from playing there for the moment.

It's also nice to see that they are trying to simplify the rules of the association (Read the thread on his speech for info) in order to avoid a repeat of all the defeated motions this year.

Villain

Originally posted by Imposter
Glad to see thread is unstickied. For me we were getting the same opinion over and over from soccer fans who have no time for the GAA.

Just like to point out that these people are still intitled to their opinion. This issue is one for the entire the country and the anti-diplomatic way in which the GAA are dealing with it shows why people have such opinions.

Yavvy

Just like to point out that these people are still intitled to their opinion. This issue is one for the entire the country and the anti-diplomatic way in which the GAA are dealing with it shows why people have such opinions.

I agree, Im hoping unstickying this thread will open new debate on the subject, there are new dynamics to the argument. however while I feel its an Issue for the entire country Others will feel Its a GAA issue and only a GAA issue.

Imposter

Originally posted by irish1
Just like to point out that these people are still intitled to their opinion. This issue is one for the entire the country and the anti-diplomatic way in which the GAA are dealing with it shows why people have such opinions.

Of course they are entitled to their opinion but what annoys me is they can't seem to accept/understand that the GAA owns the stadium and it's for them to decide what to do with it. The GAA are dealing with it the way their structure allows.

Every GAA member does get a say on the matter even though it mightn't seem like that. Yes some of the GAA's rules and regulations are outdated and that is something that seems to be changing slowly, but changing nonetheless. So it is wrong to say that it's undiplomatic.

Most of the posters that I was making the point about said something like "Who do the GAA think they are, we paid for the stadium with our (taxpayers) money so soccer should be played there". Now if they are not coming from an anti-GAA perspective and ignoring most of the facts of the whole situation then what are they doing?

Villain

Originally posted by Imposter
So it is wrong to say that it's undiplomatic.

Most of the posters that I was making the point about said something like "Who do the GAA think they are, we paid for the stadium with our (taxpayers) money so soccer should be played there". Now if they are not coming from an anti-GAA perspective and ignoring most of the facts of the whole situation then what are they doing?

Well I think there far from diplomatic, I mean several county's wanted the motion discussed but it was thrown out. I mean are they that afraid of discussing it??

I can understand why you think such people are coming from an anti GAA perspective, but basically they just want the stadium opened, their only reason for hating the GAA is probably this issue.

While I understand the GAA own Croker you do have to admit that the people of Ireland have contributed to it through tax-payers money.

I think a lot more people would be more understanding if the GAA were open to discussion on the issue, but at the moment they just appear to be given ppl who want to discuss the issue the 2 fingers, which is undiplomatic.

Mighty_Mouse

Glad to see thread is unstickied. For me we were getting the same opinion over and over from soccer fans who have no time for the GAA.

It's also nice to see that they are trying to simplify the rules of the association in order to avoid a repeat of all the defeated motions this year.

I second this

This issue is one for the entire the country and the anti-diplomatic way in which the GAA are dealing with it shows why people have such opinions

think a lot more people would be more understanding if the GAA were open to discussion on the issue, but at the moment they just appear to be given ppl who want to discuss the issue the 2 fingers, which is undiplomatic.

How do you see it as an issue for the whole country Irish? Personally IMO what happens to Croker is a GAA issue.

The fact that soccer and rugby don't have a stadium is an issue for the whole country. - they're two seperate issues in my book.

Mighty_Mouse

basically they just want the stadium opened, their only reason for hating the GAA is probably this issue

I disagree. There is a large element of Irish society which has always hated the GAA. This is just a stick to beat them with. If the GAA opened up Croker they would get absolutely no gratitude many Irish soccer fans.

I have to say that I thought this anti-gaa attitude was worst when I lived in Dublin. It seems to manifest itself in the culchie argument/problem that Dubs have with the rest of the country.

Imposter

Originally posted by irish1
Well I think there far from diplomatic, I mean several county's wanted the motion discussed but it was thrown out. I mean are they that afraid of discussing it??

There were some rules about how to propose motions that were broken. Very few seem to know the ins and outs of the regulations on this. if you read Sean Kelly's speech he mentions this too. He also mentions doing something about the confusing nature of the rules. Imo (as I have already stated) it was defeated twice in the last 3 or 4 years. It should not be up for debate every year until it gets passed. Also if the rule is changed there's nothing to say that the Central Council would let soccer be played there.

I can understand why you think such people are coming from an anti GAA perspective, but basically they just want the stadium opened, their only reason for hating the GAA is probably this issue.

It may be their only issue but just taking the snippets as posted to me it seems an anti-GAA attitude.

While I understand the GAA own Croker you do have to admit that the people of Ireland have contributed to it through tax-payers money.

Yes course they did contribute. Contribute being the word here. It was a government donation with no strings attached. If people have problems with this then they should take it out on the governemnt not the GAA. Also the GAA financed most of the stadium. The government also withdrew from a further donation they promised.

I think a lot more people would be more understanding if the GAA were open to discussion on the issue, but at the moment they just appear to be given ppl who want to discuss the issue the 2 fingers, which is undiplomatic.

How do you think that would work? The various media outlets have been putting their point across. The GAA have been putting their view across. The soccer fans have been putting their point across and the FAI have never actually said they want to play there in the first place! So what exactly could be done to have a discussion on the issue?

The GAA have their rules, they shouldn't be pressured into voting year after year on the same issue until they get the 'right' answer (or should I say right according to some of the media), a la the Nice, divorce and abortion referendums.

Villain

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

How do you see it as an issue for the whole country Irish? Personally IMO what happens to Croker is a GAA issue.

The fact that soccer and rugby don't have a stadium is an issue for the whole country. - they're two seperate issues in my book.

Soccer and Rugby have their own stadium, it's called Lasdowne road incase you didn't know. Oh and they also allow other sports there too!!

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

I disagree. There is a large element of Irish society which has always hated the GAA. This is just a stick to beat them with. If the GAA opened up Croker they would get absolutely no gratitude many Irish soccer fans.

I was talking about people post8ing on this forum, thats what the discussion was about, I would have great gratitude if they opened it up, I honestly would.

Villain

Imposter,

Sorry I'm not certain of all the facts, but did Sean Kelly not assist at least one of the countys in drafting their proposal for a debate??

I understand there are rules, but I think their being dictated in a manner that is undiplomatic.

Imposter

Originally posted by irish1
Imposter,

Sorry I'm not certain of all the facts, but did Sean Kelly not assist at least one of the countys in drafting their proposal for a debate??

I understand there are rules, but I think their being dictated in a manner that is undiplomatic.

I don't know exactly why they were refused but yes you are right about Sean Kelly (or someone pretty high up in the ranks of the GAA) was consulted by Clare County Board I think.

Below is what Sean Kelly said about the complexities of the rules in his speech to congress. It's worth remembering, with that last paragraph especially, that he is talking to some of the most knowledgeable officials in the GAA with this speech.

The fact that no motion on Rule 42 appears on the Clár despite being
submitted by eight counties has disappointed and indeed angered many.
The past Presidents have borne the brunt of much of this anger. This is
unfortunate, as each of them has given life-long and distinguished
service to the Association and they, no less than anyone else are
constrained by the rules of the Association. Nevertheless the fact that
motions now out of order were deemed in order, in previous years, has
perplexed many and has let to unsustainable conspiracy theories. As I
indicated last year, when announcing the setting up of a Rules Revision
Committee, our rules are too complicated and often too negatively
written. For instance the motion committees role is to judge whether
motions are in order, not to put them in order and the President can
rule a motion out of order, not in order.

It is particularly disconcerting that clubs and county boards have no
support mechanism available to them that guarantees motions are in
order. When top officials in the Association and even the bye-laws
committee, known masters of the rules, can't guarantee, that despite
their best efforts, that motions are in order, it is time for a rethink.
When and where are voluntary officials supposed to gain the necessary
expertise to master the rules?

I would welcome a situation, where if motions are passed at County
Conventions, a committee at National level would have the authority to
put them in order. This would get rid of the convoluted system that we
have at present and encourage our voluntary members to table motions,
forward good ideas, happy in the knowledge that they will be discussed
on the only floor that matters the floor of congress. How does it
progress our association when a perfectly laudable, well-thought out
idea can't be discussed because it's technically out of order?

Besides when knowledge of the rules is the preserve of a few, this
confers a certain power on these few, which is unhealthy and
undemocratic. Are there 40 people in this hall who could confidently
put a motion in order for Congress? Are there 30? Are there 20? Are
there 10? I emphasise this because it doesn't have to be like this,
it's not like this in most other organisations and it mustn't be like
this much longer. Hopefully the Rules Revision Committee, who have done
much work over the past year can re-draft the Rule Book that makes it
relatively easy for voluntary officials to master.