Web Designer, skilled programmer or not?

RicardoSmith

PiE

The way I see it is you can't master every aspect of web design/development. If you try, you'll end up being a jack of all trades, master of none... as they say. I'm not saying it's impossible to be skilled at both, but I feel most people would be better suited to design or development, not both.

It is extremely usefull to have a grasp of coding, you can do the little jobs yerself without needing to find (and pay!) someone else.

A tag-team of designer/coder is great if you can find someone to do it with, it leaves each person to get on with the part they're better at.

IMO :]

The Corinthian

While it is important that you have a broad understanding of both design and programming in WebDev, as PiE pointed out the ultimate end of a Jack-of-All-Trades is that they become master at none.

As a programmer, I cannot speak for the discipline of design, but I can say that the majority of such Jack-of-All-Trades in WebDev are largely Cut ‘n Paste Cowboys where it comes to programming. As such, Jack-of-All-Trades cannot offer a particularly high level of technical customisation to a client, which may mean that while they can adequately cater to the entry level Web site market, without specialization they cannot ethically offer anything more complex.

I would imagine that the same could probably be said for the field of design.

p

I agree with most of what people have said before. People who are coder/designers are rarely great at both.

The ideal situation is where you have a team of 2 or more people who are able to communicate well.

This will get over the problems Ricardo Smith talks about and will actually result in even greater things since the chances are both individuals will know the intimate details of their discipline.

Of course two people are more expensive than one but I think they'd be worth it. (o:

To answer the first question though, a designer should know HTML and having an understanding of CGIs and serverside stuff is useful in order to properly communicate with programmers.

Basically, knowing the background behind things you're working with enables a designer to expand what they can conceive, be that HTML or whatever technology.

Good luck,

- Kevin

DeadBankClerk

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Should a Designer or Programmer do their own functionality testing?

Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test, Unit Test!

The Corinthian

Should a Designer or Programmer do their own functionality testing?
Should a Designer or Programmer do their own usability testing?

No. Someone with the necessary knowledge in testing and QA methodology should - and never the author of the application.

Should a programmer design the applications he codes?

The application architecture should be designed (a misleading term in the current discussion as it would denote a technical rather than design architecture) by the most qualified and/or experienced programmer.

Should a programmer design interfaces he codes?

No. A programmer may want to do a preliminary interface and code the UI API as flexibly as possible, but that role is best left to someone who specializes in this field (i.e. a designer, UI specialist or information architect).

Should a business analyst have a knowledge of programming/design?

Yes. Otherwise, advising a client may be a bit difficult if you don’t have a bog of a notion of what your company does.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
DeadBankClerk - option explicit - please?

As I said... someone with the necessary knowledge in testing and QA methodology...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Interesting. My experience of working in IT for both large and small companies I have never had the pleasure where all those roles were done by the different people, or where individuals like Business Analysts had programming knowledge. Some places may have had a few dubious testers but generally the programmer did everything.

With respects, then the larger of the companies you worked with were either not very big or not very good.

Unfortunately, in Ireland, there is a log tradition of cowboy capitalism, and as such cutting corners, employing cheap labour and running a project by the seat of your pants is not unusual.

As I’ve said, the problem, from a programming perspective, is that most Jack-of-All-Trades will tend to be cut ‘n paste cowboys. Even those who can actually program will be limited in what they can do. I’ve not met many such Jack-of-all-trades who will be up to the task of developing a SOAP interface to any application, for example.

The larger and the more professional a company gets, the more you begin to see a demarcation of roles. Most oblivious is between the disciplines of programmer and designer. But you will also see the introduction of project management and proper project methodology and procedure, and (later still) BA & QA. It is still important, if not essential, that each understands the larger gamete of disciplines, but it is not necessary that they are proficient either.

As a company grows, and for it to become more professional, not only is this demarcation necessary, but as importantly, that it adopt appropriate methodology throughout a project lifespan. Even smaller companies with fewer resources can move towards this goal.

Otherwise, you’re just another bottom feeder, chancing your arm.

Where you guys work do you have this many different people working on projects?

I have my own very small firm now, although before that I would have worked for one of the larger WebDev firms and also alongside the Big Five, on a regular basis. And yes, to your second query.

p

This has been a really interesting discussion. (o:

Anyway, in small companies it often is a mish-mash and overlap of talents.

I've worked in a web company (small) where the designer did all the flats, someone else would build the HTML templates and someone else might work on content where appropriate.

For interactive games and media, you'd have a designer & programmer and a script/story writer.

I think it works much better that way as if you specialize in one area you can achieve better things, which is a shame, because a lot of people don't like specializing.

hehe

- Kevin

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I like that "Cowboy capitalism" Too true. But then budgets are often tight, and its a matter of what you can do with the least resources isn't it.

True, but tight budgets should not be used as an excuse for cutting corners - ask any astronaut.

Its not something thats always required though is it.

As I said, the designer-programmer Jack-of-All-Trades is fine for the entry-level developments where high-end programming is not something that’s required. However, without specializing, our Jack-of-All-Trades will reach the end of his/her capabilities very quickly.

In programming terms, even something as basic as a simple database backed Web site (almost a given in any WebDev project nowadays) - I’ve lost count of how many sites I’ve seen that are so poorly coded that they fall over due to gross memory leaks or accept SQL commands sent in the querystring.

Can we surmise then that a good programmer/developer/analyst would/should be competent/knowledgeable of the other disciplines but not an expert in them aswell? Should they be able to do low level tasks in the other disciplines? Or do they not need to know squat about the other disciplines.

I’m an appalling designer, but I do understand the basics of UI design. In the same way, I would expect a designer to know (when developing a concept) what is technically feasible and what is not. Or that a BA (read salesperson, in most companies) will know that adding that extra feature is not “no problem”.

Grounding in those fields that you will be interacting with is important, but proficiency is not. Indeed, more important is the ability to defer to a colleague in these fields.

Missed me there?

Yes, separate disciplines/departments in previous companies.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
So to build a data driven web site with a db backend, you'd need a team comprising of the following...

Don’t be so glib - one could subdivide and create specialities ad infinitum, but no one is suggesting that. This discussion is about division between the major disciplines in WebDev.

For a basic data driven Web site (on a virtual host) a programmer, a designer and a BA/PM would suffice. Even in a really small set-up, where the BA/PM is also the programmer/designer (i.e. freelancer), I would not recommend that both design and programming be carried out by the same person.

Biz analyst/Sales (do I detect a bit of hostility there?)

The incompetent should always be treated with hostility - I was simply recounting a past, bad, experience.

Hobbes

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Should a Designer or Programmer do their own functionality testing?
Should a Designer or Programmer do their own usability testing?

No. Someone with the necessary knowledge in testing and QA methodology should - and never the author of the application.

I disgree a little (don't delete your post! )

Unit Tests should be written by the author of the code and maintained by anyone who touches that code. It cuts down on a large number of problems that QE could do without and cuts down on test blocking bugs.

dahamsta

What a bizarre thread!

adam

The Corinthian

Honestly, I wasn't talking to myself

(But I will stand by my words, unlike - bizarrely - some)

mada999

good design is good design, you need a good design.

sauce for the goose sauce for the gander

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Hobbes
I disgree a little (don't delete your post! )

Unit Tests should be written by the author of the code and maintained by anyone who touches that code. It cuts down on a large number of problems that QE could do without and cuts down on test blocking bugs.

twas done in error :eek:

Whats a unit test? is that QA terminology for something? I assume they are some sort of self test. Do they themselves not need testing? Personally I think you need to do both self tests and have others (the more the merrier) else test aswell. A mix of experience and inexperienced users.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.