Is it now time that same sex marriage was introduced in Ireland?

Annasopra

This is on the GCN website, what do people think should Ireland have the same?

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Belgium passes gay marriage law- Date: 31-Jan-03/Source: The Age
International News:

Belgium's parliament overwhelmingly passed a new law allowing same-sex marriages, the second country in Europe with such legislation after the Netherlands. The law, already backed by the Belgian senate in November, was approved by 91 deputies in the lower house of parliament, while 22 voted against and nine lawmakers abstained. Belgian gays immediately welcomed the move. Some 100 members of various homosexual groups were present in parliament to hear the debate on the new law and see the vote.

"We are very happy that this law has been passed," Anke Hintjens of the Federation of Gay and Lesbian Associations of Flanders told AFP. The law, which will come into force in about four months, will give homosexual couples most of the same rights as heterosexual ones, notably inheritance rights, although it would not allow them to adopt children. In the case of a lesbian couple, the biological mother will be considered the lone parent of the child or children.

In legal terms, the new law will modify Belgium's civil code to include a clause stating that "two people of different or the same sex can contract a marriage". "Mentalities have changed. There is no longer any reason not to open it to people of the same sex," said Justice Minister Marc Verwilghen during a debate before the law was voted through. The law does not limit homosexual marriage to Belgian citizens or to people from countries where such marriages are recognised

"It is therefore not to be ruled out that these marriages will not be recognised in certain countries, as Belgium and the Netherlands are so far the only two countries which have adopted such legislation," said the minister.

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Shinji

Any situation in which there is a long-term relationship should be subject to the same terms as a long-term heterosexual relationship in terms of legal and financial arrangements. The fact that gay and lesbian couples have no legal rights with regard to their partners, particularly in the eventuality of their death, is a very basic contravention of their rights. "Gay marriage" is an emotive term to many people because marriage suggests a religious ceremony; the fact is that it's just a legal recognition of partnership status that is required.

Talliesin

As I've said before I've come to the opinion that there is no real need for legal marriage, and other mechanisms could better serve the needs of couples w.r.t. next-of-kin rights, inheritance and taxation (some of which are already in place).

To my mind a marriage is the business of the couple and whatever Gods they pray to (to a lesser extent the celebrant, since she or he shouldn't perform a marriage they thought was a really bad idea).

That said while there is such a thing as legal marriage it is clear denial of basic civil rights to deny it to some couples and not to others on the arbitrary grounds of whether they are of the same sex or not.

Yoda

(2003-11-18)

BOSTON (Reuters) - The highest court in Massachusetts ruled on Tuesday that the state cannot bar gays and lesbians from marrying, but it stopped short of ordering the state to start issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

In a 4-3 ruling that could make Massachusetts the first state to legalize gay marriage, the Supreme Judicial Court said the state may not deny the rights conferred by civil marriage to two individuals of the same sex who wish to marry.

"We declare that barring an individual from the protections, benefits, and obligations of civil marriage solely because that person would marry a person of the same sex violates the Massachusetts Constitution," the court said in its ruling.

The court remanded the case back to a state court to conform with its ruling, but said the ruling would be on hold for 180 days to allow the state legislature to take any action it may deem appropriate.

Gay marriages are forbidden in the United States, although one state, Vermont, allows same-sex civil unions -- contracts that essentially provide most of the legal rights and protections of marriage but under a different name.

A civil union is only recognized in the state in which it is granted while a marriage is recognized nationwide, experts said.

Debate over the issue of same-sex unions has intensified since Canada has taken steps to legalize gay marriages and the U.S. Supreme Court in June struck down state sodomy laws. Conservative critics say the Supreme Court's ruling could open the door to same-sex marriages in the United States.

The 1996 Defense of Marriage Act, signed by former President Bill Clinton, defines marriage for federal purposes as between one woman and one man. Gay marriages are forbidden in the United States.

There is going to be a US National Public Radio programme on this tomorrow 16:00 our time. (I was going to be interviewed during that spot but they just cancelled me because this is big news). See The Connection -- I am not yet sure whether or not there is a link to the live radio broadcast though I expect there is.

ixoy

Society is doomed. Families across the US will dissolve and the world will end. Come on folks, let's get to the shelters before the bombs fall...

tendofan

I'm with Shinji on this one. I avoid the term "marriage" in preference for "civil union"; a little clinical perhaps, but less likely to get the religiously minded up in arms.

As an aside, I can't think of anywhere nicer than Belgium to have a reception - all that chocolate, pastry, waffles and beer...

Tendofan

boomdogman

I think Trendo right. Registered Civil Union makes a great deal of sense. Registered because only a state registration can deal with the issues of next Of Kin Rights, insurance, Pensions etc. The decision by the Equality Authority was a good start, now we should focus on the RCU.

tendofan

Maybe this should be in a new thread, apologies if it ought to be, but from

http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2003/11/18/marriage_poll/index.html

"Most Americans, 55 percent, say they feel that homosexuality is a sin, while 33 percent disagree. Nine in 10 highly committed white Evangelicals and nearly three-quarters of black Protestants say homosexual behavior is sinful. "

Please God, tell me that it's not that bad over here!

Tendofan.

Yoda

I responded to this ("civil marriage" vs "civil union") here.

Yoda

Tendofan noted
"Most Americans, 55 percent, say they feel that homosexuality is a sin, while 33 percent disagree.

What's "sin"? :mad:

tendofan

I dunno, it boggles my mind how much damage is willfully and wantonly done to LGBT people by hurling words like "sin" and "deviant" and "perverse" around the place.

I wonder if Foucault was right when he said that society as a whole is more challenged by the concept of a stable homosexual relationships than by random promiscuity.

Tendofan.

Lukin Black

To be honest, I don't particularly like the term 'civil union'. Marriage, as it is now for straight people, is not usually about legal and financial issues - it's a gesture of love and commitment. EVEN if it's carried out in a Registry office. Despite its archaic religious (and not as recognised as it was) connotations, it's - for most people - a declaration that you love somebody and are prepared to spend the rest of your life with them. Of course many, many people are content (straight or gay) to make that commitment to each other, without any kind of civil or church ceremony. But many would like the chance to have it declared and made legal, the same way that straight people are allowed to. Not just because they're better off financially. I mean if your long term partner asked you to marry them because it meant tax/inheritance or whatever, breaks for you both, it wouldn't be quite the same thing..

Besides, it would silly getting down on one knee and asking someone to join you in civil union

yellum

Originally posted by Lukin Black

Besides, it would silly getting down on one knee and asking someone to join you in civil union

Why ? People go down on bended knee to go to a registry office. A civil union means you want to share everything with someone doesn't it ? Usually out of love. So because you love someone you share all your assets with them too and the 'civil union' means that the law protects you both.

Lukin Black

I guess what I was trying to say was that it doesn't roll of the tongue as well.

Anyhow, I was looking at it from a different angle last night, and basically what it boils down to is that they are one and the same. But why should it be that straight people get to marry someone and gay people have civil union, if they are one and the same thing. I mean if both can be in a registry office. I know it's just really nitpicking over (as Yoda quoted) who owns the word marriage, but it's still making it a case of 'us' and 'them', i.e. we can both do it, but gay people need a special term for it.

Hey, I'll be happy the day they introduce it under whatever guise, but I would be happier if there was no need to differentiate one from the other.

yellum

The official term I thought for all unions are "civil unions". People are going to class the civil union of a same sex couple as a "marriage" and people will use the term "marriage" to describe it. Its not the Church version of marriage though.

To me "civil union" is less sexuality and relgion specific I guess so its the most encompassing term. Its a union of two people recognized and protected by the state.

boomdogman

Theres more, much more, to this than the affirmation of a couples love. Without a state registerd union the surviving partner has no rights. I know a very nice guy that was excluded from his partners funeral by the partners family. Its not about wearing a meringue and /or shocking some straight people. it is about establishing a framework of law which reflects our lifes and is attainable. Avoid calling it marriage and you defuse most of the objectors.
REMEMBER THE CATHOLIC HIERARCHY CAMPAIGNED AND WENT TO COURT TO KEEP THE 1861 OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSONS ACT WHICH MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE GAUARDS TO ENTER OUR BEDROOMS TO CATCH US. NEVER FORGET, NEVER FORGIVE!

Yoda

The UK is going to implement partnership legislation. See this thread if you haven't already.