New Digital Service for Ireland

rovingrover

See front of today's Irish Times (someone with an ireland.com account please post)

The government is investigating providing a new Digital Service like the UK Freeview one throughout the island for a one off fee of approx €160.

Good news if it comes off.

carrolls

New digital TV system may mean more channels for less



Television viewers would be able to get dozens of domestic and foreign television channels at a lower cost under a new plan to set up an all-Ireland digital system, writes Mark Hennessy, Political Reporter

If a project floated by the Minister for Communication, Mr Ahern, last night were implemented, customers would pay a once-off fee of approximately €160, with no further payments.

The Minister's plan is modelled on Britain's Freeview service run by the BBC and BSkyB. Customers pay £99 for a set-top box capable of receiving 30 channels.

Addressing the Dublin Chamber of Commerce last night, Mr Ahern said the platform could see RTÉ 1, Network 2 and TG4 freely available to viewers throughout Northern Ireland.

"It is certainly a potential solution to our digital terrestrial television problems and it is in line with the broadcasting commitments in the Good Friday agreement," he said.

The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources believes RTÉ's transmission network could be upgraded to carry the new services at a cost of €40 million.

Some 80 per cent of homes in the State receive BBC and UTV. However, RTÉ is content with the proposal as it gives it a chance to increase its Northern Ireland audience. The all-Ireland network has been discussed frequently over recent months by executives from RTÉ, TG4 and TV3, along with their Northern counterparts in UTV and the BBC.

The cost of acquiring all-Ireland television rights has proved to be a major hurdle, the chief executive of TV3, Mr Rick Hetherington, told The Irish Times.

"It is sold as a job lot. You can't buy the rights for Northern Ireland separately. You would need the co-operation of all the variety of sources from whom we buy our programming," he said.

Although prepared to go along with the plan, Mr Hetherington said: "There is nothing in it commercially for TV3. BBC and UTV will swap access to a 1.5 million market for one with 3.7 million people."

A cheaper multi-channel option would be a blow for NTL and Chorus, because they cannot yet supply the high-speed Internet and telephone services that would keep subscribers paying monthly fees.

---

Source Irish Times

LFCFan

might be the kick in the arse NTL need to roll out their 2-way network to the rest of Dublin?????

DMC

This has been moved to the Terrestrial board, its relevant there.

As with this, they question is..... when?

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by DMC


As with this, they question is..... when?

Probably the same time we get UTV and Channel 4 on Sky digital:D

DMC

Na, DTT will happen sooner than that!

mike65

If this happens who the f>ck is going to bother with either chorus or NTL unless they're a Sky sports fan?

I notice wireless broadband was'nt mentioned..!

Mike.

a bientot

Article from THE IRISH TIMES 7 February 2003

< Mod Edit: Text already posted in thread. But thanks for mentioning the source, which the original poster should have done. >

© The Irish Times

Mossy Monk

so what does this mean?
does it mean RTÉ, TV3, TG4, BBC and UTV or just the 4 channels from the ROI. either way it's about time

mike65

I wonder would that make BBC3/4 availible here...?

Or will the new channels be Dail TV Schools programmes and RTE News 24, horror!

Mike.

robert muldoon

Originally posted by DMC
Na, DTT will happen sooner than that!

How would this be transmitted. ie by sat or by aerial, if by sat would that mean we would have an Irish FTV card?

Mossy Monk

it would be delivered by aerial.

will this proposed service run alongside Freeview in the north or would it replace it.

if it has the UK terrestrials for the south it might force Sky to take the finger out but by that stage who would care

triple-play

It would be great if it was ever to happen but there are a few very serious difficulties with launching the suggested service:

1. How would they resolve the content rights issue? Eg Channel4/UTV have the rights to several US programmes for the UK, while TV3/RTE has the rights to those same programmes (eg ER, The Sopranos, The West Wing, Friends, The Simpsons, Sex & the City, etc) for the ROI. If it cannot be resolved then TV3/RTE would force the blanking of the transmission of those programmes. I know it is possible that UTV may buy the rest of TV3 and UTV and create a single all Ireland channel (or two) but a service without Channel 4 is definitely going to be lacking.

2. Why would the BBC go along with this plan? At present they make significant revenue from Chorus & ntl in Ireland by charging a per subscriber content fee. If they were to be part of the suggested new FTV service then they would be destroying an existing revenue stream.

3. Who would pay for the cost of transmission? The RTE transmission network is the only existing network capable of distributing the signal but it needs to be paid for. Would the UK channels, and TV3, RTE and TG4 be willing to pay for the cost of the Tx network when they would not be generating annual subscription revenue from the service?

4. Who would pay for the digital transmitters, maintenance, power, multiplexing etc?

5. €160 would basically cover the cost of the boxes with the retailer/distribution margin/costs. Were is the revenue to cover the costs going to come from?

I agree that something must be done to stop the rampant infiltration of Sky. Sky is not regulated, doesn't pay the 3.5% levy and doesn't pay VAT to the Irish exchequer on subscriber revenues and yet has free use of our spectrum and complains about the possible interference from DTT and deflectors. Sky really are taking us to the cleaners.

Maybe the Government have put out this story hoping to generate more debate and a reasonable business plan for digital terrestrial. Either that or Dermot Ahern and his advisors haven't thought the practicalities out thoroughly.

Maybe I've missed something about their proposal -if I have please put me out of my misery!

Surely, a venture, like this would have to involve the co-operation of both the Irish and UK networks to resolve some of the issues Triple play mentions.

I'd imagine all the other issues haven't been discussed yet, this sounds like it is at the " oh that is a good idea, how do we go about it" stage.
mm

spongebob

Comreg want legislation to allow them to Regulate Sky...and charge Irish VAT as well I hear.

DTT will kill SKY , Chorus and NTL stone dead...except that SKY are part of Freeview in the UK and may want some leverage at the STB level for PPV .......one multiplex would buy them off.

Broadband is not part of the strategy becaue the amount of Bandwidth specified for DTT is surprisingly small.....but can accomodate 36 Channels n 6 multiplexes AFAIR

I also suspect that if Murdoch pays McCreevey his VAT cut ....instead of handing it to the UK exchequer......you may see the DTT bandwagon losing a vast amount of steam all of a sudden. Then roll on 2009 when the Analogue TV Channels must be turned off AFAIR . Expect something to happen around then.

M

Antenna

"I agree that something must be done to stop the rampant infiltration of Sky. Sky is not regulated, doesn't pay the 3.5% levy and doesn't pay VAT to the Irish exchequer on subscriber revenues and yet has free use of our spectrum and complains about the possible interference from DTT and deflectors. "

tripleplay;
Sky NEVER claimed that DTT would cause interference to them.
Likewise they never claimed that 'deflectors' as exist at present would cause interference. Deflectors may interfere with DTT but no way will they affect SKy. In fact some deflectors, such as South Coast in most areas are using skyDigital for delivery of all 4 channels.

Now the possible interference that Sky was concerned about was a proposed digital microwave system that one deflector group (South Coast) put foward which was (at least when first proposed) to use the same frequency band as Satellite.
The ODTR agreed to take Submissions of Interest on this after South Coast suggested legal action.

South Coast personel have claimed that the signal from their proposed microwave system would be so strong that a third of viewers would just need a chocolate bar sized aerial to pick it up. If the signal was going to be that strong in some areas the fear is not unreasonable.
SkyDigital viewers may have had to replace their mini-dishes with much larger dishes to reject interference.

"yet has free use of our spectrum "

The spectrum concerned has been up to now been used for satellite only. Charging $Ky to keep that spectrum free of interference may sound reasonable but it sets a very dangerous precedent! Where does this leave people with no interest in Sky but interested in receiving EUROPEAN satellite Astra 19.2, Hotbird etc, people wishing to learn another language etc, if they have interference?

Don't get me wrong about Sky they SHOULD be paying IRISH VAT on Irish subscribers- I agree fully here.
Sky should be taxed on subscriptions and advertising revenue but not the above which opens up a can of worms.

I may as well mention the deflectors:
South Coast are now looking for 75 Euros from each house for this year - yet another increase. 75 Euros is not an insignificant amount for a service where they cannot force people to pay, and most people do not pay! And in some respects the service has lost value - teletext, a service I used a lot is no longer available, except for a very limited service on BBC2 (and without the pages I want - news). As it is people who have been paying, year in year out are now getting very cranky about the apparent huge number of people who are not paying. A huge amount of new houses have been built in South Coast's areas. Surely there should be a lot of extra income from these to keep 'subscriptions' (legally membership) lower?
Are South Coast doing enough to try and get the spongers (most people) to pay, rather than unfairly relying on the people who have been recorded as paying in the past to pay extra? - I dont think so

icdg

Originally posted by triple-play
It would be great if it was ever to happen but there are a few very serious difficulties with launching the suggested service:


5. €160 would basically cover the cost of the boxes with the retailer/distribution margin/costs. Were is the revenue to cover the costs going to come from?

This is actually one of the simplest problems to solve - simply import the boxes which are already available in the UK for Freeview. Yes they would need to be modified, but that would be of minimal cost. Freeview don't subsidise the Pace / Nokia boxes available.

The other problems I partitally deal with in the article which is going to be posted shortly over on http://icdg.boards.ie . But rights issues and the cost of setting up the transmission network are very significant hurdles.

Personally, I'm not currently giving this much chance of success -yet. But I sincerly hope I'm proved wrong.

byte

If it were to be a "freeview" system, what channels could we expect to see? Would the niche channels on Freeview also be interested on being available on Irish freeview?
Eg The Hits, ITV News, etc...

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by Antenna
And in some respects the service has lost value - teletext, a service I used a lot is no longer available, except for a very limited service on BBC2 (and without the pages I want - news).

let's not forget Nicam stereo. all mono now except for the one deflector system with analogue BBC2, HTV and S4C

watty

This story proves, YET AGAIN, that the gov. here hasn't a clue about broadcasting.

watty

DTT won't kill Sky.
But a "decent" freeview DTT will kill Chorus / NTL / Casey

A "pay" DTT would never work now with Chorus DMMS having 120+ channels if they turn off analog.


Forget about importing the ill-thought out limted channel capacity (29 channels) UK DTT system.


The Gov. should get the exsiting Chorus MMDS system under a new authority and turn off the never-should-have-existed Analog MMDS.

The Digital MMDS should then be upgraded with 30 channels "freeview" and the rest (90 chs) rented out to NTL/Chorus/Sky.

The system could be extended to NI as they do not use that band. (2.5GHz). And the network improved.

Some Areas could have UHF "fill in" of 30 channels.

(The Sagem boxes will work on UHF with a cheap adaptor (LNA) intead of the LNB for 2.5GHz).

Most of the Digital MMDs problems are not the technology, but Chorus Installation.


UHF DTT:
* No extra mux space NI. No space in NI to add 4 channels.
* No network in ROI
* Only 30 channels

Digital MMDS:
* Can be used in NI, in parallel to existing UK DTT
* Partial Network already exists in ROI
* More than 120 channels if Analog MMDS is turned off
* Could have 30 free + 90 pay channels (UK Sky FTV/Pay model)
* Same box will work on UHF with 30 Channels in areas too built up or congested with trees etc. (LNA +aerial instead of LNB + mesh dish)
* In city areas or apartment block the DMMDS boxes can work on a cable feed.
* Space for All the radio too.
* Space for local comunity TV or Radio

Genghis

I like the idea Watty - in one fell swoop get rid of Chorus AND get a decent free-to-view service!

However, some concerns:

Can't at least some of Chorus's problems be put down to the fact that they are essentially a grouping of once-independent systems? Would these legacy problems persist with a new system, or could they even multiply as the remaining area of the country gets MMDS (places like Dublin City would need to be connected).

What sort of deal do Chorus have with ComReg (could their network be de-privatised just like that)? Although, perhaps some of the foreign investors, who were once keen to cash in on the cable / dotcom boom, might now like to divest of an ageing, crippled and doomed backwater operator, with no synergy to their operations elsewhere in the world.

Which brings me to my final point: Isn't MMDS 'ageing, crippled and doomed'? as a distribution technology?

mike65

Originally posted by Genghis
Which brings me to my final point: Isn't MMDS 'ageing, crippled and doomed'? as a distribution technology?

Its been just that since before it was introduced! I may curse NTL but at least I'm on cable.

Mike.

icdg

Originally posted by Genghis
I like the idea Watty - in one fell swoop get rid of Chorus AND get a decent free-to-view service!

However, some concerns:

Can't at least some of Chorus's problems be put down to the fact that they are essentially a grouping of once-independent systems? Would these legacy problems persist with a new system, or could they even multiply as the remaining area of the country gets MMDS (places like Dublin City would need to be connected).

Indeed - every Chorus cable system has a different line up and pricing structure for analogue. Essentially, every Chorus system is a local fiefdom. (Even the old Irish Multichannel and CMI, the two major predecessors of Chorus, were both built by acquisition. Irish Multichannel was effectively four seperately-run companies (Horizon, Cork Comms, Westward, East Coast) while CMI acquired too many to count).

Since October 2000, Chorus has tried to unfiy its structure. The product line up on digital is the same throughout the country. But even then, as long as analogue remains the majority of the system, Chorus will never be able to present itself as a national service.

Contrast this to NTL - they run what is basically a single proposition (despite some minor differences) in their three franchises. (NTL UK is a different kettle of fish, it runs basically two different systems).

What sort of deal do Chorus have with ComReg (could their network be de-privatised just like that)? Although, perhaps some of the foreign investors, who were once keen to cash in on the cable / dotcom boom, might now like to divest of an ageing, crippled and doomed backwater operator, with no synergy to their operations elsewhere in the world.

Which brings me to my final point: Isn't MMDS 'ageing, crippled and doomed'? as a distribution technology?

Chorus' network is privately owned - the government would have to pay the market rate to acquire it. Even then, it could fall foul of EU rules on "state aid".

A simpler solution, if you wanted to implement that proposition (which I'm not convinced about) would be for the Freeview-type consortium to rent the space from Chorus. Chorus could continue to operate their digital MMDS system, but the Freeview system could be run alongside it on the same network. Obviously the contract details would have to be rather detailed, specifying who is responsible for upkeep etc. COMREG would also have to agree to analogue switch-off.

Effectively, it would be a regulated "unbundling of the local loop" for MMDS. But it would be difficult to implement.

byte

One slight problem. MMDS is rubbish! At least Chorus analogue MMDS in Donegal is rubbish anyway. Direct Line-of-Sight is another hurdle, though I believe there is a MMDS system that can overcome this, mentioned in IOFFL boards for broadband use.

I would be quite happy to see DTT service. But how could they have a Freeview-type setup and include BBC1, 2, UTV and C4? These 4 channels would be very important if it were to make any significance

carrolls

€160 would basically cover the cost of the boxes with the retailer/distribution margin/costs. Where is the revenue to cover the costs going to come from?

If this service eventually happens, I see it having a good launch, and gradually go downhill from there.
I don't see where the extra revenue needed to run it is going to come from.

watty

Originally posted by irishbyte
One slight problem. MMDS is rubbish! At least Chorus analogue MMDS in Donegal is rubbish anyway. Direct Line-of-Sight is another hurdle, though I believe there is a MMDS system that can overcome this, mentioned in IOFFL boards for broadband use.

I would be quite happy to see DTT service. But how could they have a Freeview-type setup and include BBC1, 2, UTV and C4? These 4 channels would be very important if it were to make any significance

Yes ANALOG MMDS is rubbish. It should never have been approved or installed. Much better systems existed at the time.

I was *ONLY* talking about using the Chorus DIGITAL MMDS network (not cable etc). NTL has MMDS, but almost no DIGITAL MMDS.

The idea of Chorus "unbundling" 30 channels to a "Freeview" system and people allowed to buy a Sagem box (or use rental if on Chorus Sub) would work.

If there was a fraction of the money needed for a UHF DTT infrastructure was used to "turn off" analog MMDS and free upgrade all existing analog MMDS customers to digital, the "freeview" 30 channels could come out of the extra 60 Digital MMDS chanels (Digital MMDS is at 50% capacity to allow the pathetic 11 channel Analog system to run in parallel on the same receiving aerials.

In many cases an existing analog MMDS "micro" mesh dish will work a Digital box. (In a darn sight more cases than is true with Analog to DTT changeover on UHF!).

Apart from the fact that the entireity of Chorus is for sale anyway, They would be more than delighted to rent 30 channels out cheaply for free view on an Expanded 60+ --> 120+ System.

Advantages for Chorus:
* Get rid of Analog means 90pay instead of 60pay (only) Channels (+30 extra freeview)
* Get rid of Analofg means 1 not 2 systems to maintain
* All freeview users can become pay customers by phonecall
* Cancelling subscribers more likely to return and buy box anyway.
* 30 Free + 90 pay competes with Sky better than 60 pay only.
* Extra income for transmitting the 30 free channels.

Personally I think RTE Transmitter dept should run the Digital MMDS network. RTE Transmitter Dept should become a separate company renting to Chorus, RTE, TG4 etc. Chorus might even be happier with that idea as it means less staff and less customer compalints to them....

spongebob

Originally posted by watty
Apart from the fact that the entireity of Chorus is for sale anyway, They would be more than delighted to rent 30 channels out cheaply for free view on an Expanded 60+ --> 120+ System.

Advantages for Chorus:
* Get rid of Analog means 90pay instead of 60pay (only) Channels (+30 extra freeview)
* Get rid of Analofg means 1 not 2 systems to maintain
* All freeview users can become pay customers by phonecall
* Cancelling subscribers more likely to return and buy box anyway.
* 30 Free + 90 pay competes with Sky better than 60 pay only.
* Extra income for transmitting the 30 free channels.

Personally I think RTE Transmitter dept should run the Digital MMDS network. RTE Transmitter Dept should become a separate company renting to Chorus, RTE, TG4 etc. Chorus might even be happier with that idea as it means less staff and less customer compalints to them....

Brilliant thesis on how to avoid re-inventing the wheel Watty.

In principle I agreed with the lot until it strikes me that Chorus, an organisation without a shred of care or respect for its customers would be left with a Universal Service Obligation and as the implementer of important National policy objectives.

I headed straight for the crapper at that point and returned to type this last sentence and press Submit Repl

watty

It's a bummer.
Everyone wants to re-invent the wheel.

Example.
Go to 20 sites at random completly different content / interests and see how many different streaming media formats there are.

Esp. try it on an un-upgraded 4 year old Apple MAC, Windows 95 or NT4.0 PC.

You'll find you need a minimum of Apple QuickTime, Windows Media Player 9 on Win2000/XP and RealPlayer. Even then I bet if you try you will find lots of sites that don't work.

Also in Digital Media I think some wheels arn't very round. The Octagonal ones arn't too bad (UK DAB at 112K?). But the Square and Triangular Wheels really annoy me.

watty

Originally posted by Muck
Brilliant thesis on how to avoid re-inventing the wheel Watty.

In principle I agreed with the lot until it strikes me that Chorus, an organisation without a shred of care or respect for its customers would be left with a Universal Service Obligation and as the implementer of important National policy objectives.

I headed straight for the crapper at that point and returned to type this last sentence and press Submit Repl

So no surprise I used to be a Comms Engineer in BBC, and in mid 1980s was a consultant on a portable information/Multimedia project.

Also worked in Design Dept of a AV facilities/Supply/Install company.

I also re-invent wheels at a modest daily rate, as I work now entirely in IT and Programming (an area more prone to wheel re-invention than any other. Also famous for copying old wheels, e.g. Linux Vs. 1976 UNIX).

spongebob

So no surprise I used to be a Comms Engineer in BBC, and in mid 1980s was a consultant on a portable information/Multimedia project.

I'd be givin me age away to the likes of you if I said that boards was like Prestel in colour then ....cough!

Anyway, how do we get this aerial real estate off Chorus.!

M