Irish Times Article (Part of).

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 6:32pm #1

Hey Folks, did anyone read the article in the Irish Times (EBusiness Section) dated Tuesday 19th June. The following is a part of it. I was wondering what the committee and the rest of you people thought of it.

"Flat rate story now Flattened"
Andrew Conlon-Trant (ACT) has stated.
"The internet growth has slowed down, with only 30% penetration. The price of Internet Access must come down if we are to become a digital economy. Wholesale flat rate is essential to enable retail, and flat-rate is essential to develope e-commerce."

This is not a view shared by Eircom, who say that they are listening to the market, and flat-rate Internet is not high on the agenda.

"Look at the rate of adoption," says Anne Corcoran, head of marketing at eircom.net. "The moving up curve is very slow and gentle. People want their lives to be made as easy as possible. It is big news in the media at the moment, but flat-rate is just a debate. It is not coming from the customers."

In deference to ACT he did say more but I do not want to make a huge post, but if you people want I will print the whole story. Maybe someone could find a link to the story on the Times website because I'm not to sure how to do it.
Well what do you all think of this?

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 7:58pm

I see. So Anne Corcoran at Eircom is making peoples lives as easy as possible by sending them HUGE phone bills? Very nice going, Anne!

Also, what's this **** about "not coming from our customers". Aren't we their customers? Oh right, I'm getting this wrong... we're Eircom's "slaves". Ahh, makes much more sense now!

The ****ers at Eircom just have no clue about their customers needs. But then again, I probably shouldn't blame them -- they're just out to rip every Irish person off!

<EDIT>I calmed down a bit now, and would like to apologies if I came out a bit strongly in this post.</EDIT>

[This message has been edited by Urban Weigl (edited 20-06-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 8:01pm

And another thing: if Eircom's customers aren't interested in flat rate Internet access anyway, why don't they offer it? They wouldn't lose any money, because nobody would sign up (at least according to Anne Corcoran of Eircom).

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 8:23pm

Anne Corcoran, I challenge you to introduce wholesale flat-rate Internet access similar to FRIACO in the UK and Northern Ireland. This doesn't mean that you have to offer flat-rate services yourself.

Then when you've lost most of your customers, come back to me and tell me again that your customers don't want flat rate.

I know you aren't going to do this, because you know I'm right.

dahamsta · 20-06-2001 8:37pm

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't Esat one of Eircom's biggest customers? They mightn't like it, but...

By the way, if anyone from Eircom is reading this, please feel free to pass this message onto Anne Corcoran:

I am an Eircom customer. I want flat-rate. I want broadband. I want always-on. I want you to stop acting irresponsibly; and co-operate with the ODTR and the OLOs to unbundle the local loop immediately.

adam

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 8:43pm

Good point about Esat being one of Eircom's biggest customers.

Furthermore, 20,000 IOL NoLimits customers want flat rate. They are all also Eircom customers, because they have an Eircom phone line and are paying line rental to Eircom.

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 8:52pm

All this just confirms that Eircom doesn't listen to their customers.

[This message has been edited by Urban Weigl (edited 20-06-2001).]

LegacyUser · 20-06-2001 10:26pm

I must give The Times their due because the article stated:

"As Eircom own the lines, they have been in no hurry ti offer a flat-rate, and because of Eircom's ownership, other ISP's are unable to."

They also said that the ODTR had given the access codes 1892 and 1893 and have stated "now it was up to each ISP to negotiatetheir with Eircom." But in the case of disputes they (ODTR) would bethere to mediate.

The situation was the same in England until OFTEL (the regulatory body in the UK) forced BT to delver a wholesale package, therefore making way for flat-rate.

Now my question is if OFTEL can force BT to do something why the hell can't the ODTR do the same here it???

As stated earlier I want FLAT-RATE as well as thousands of others. Come to this site Anne Corcoran and explain what customers you got your information from. It certainly wasn't the SNL customers.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 12:30am

Just to let you know that the IrelandOffline committe are really p****d off with Eircom's statements.

I have written to the Editor on behalf of IrelandOffline, probably too late for tomorrow's issue but hopefully they will carry it on Friday.

Don't know whether it's ethical to post the letter here before the editor gets it so I'll post it here on Friday.

Martin Harran

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 12:37am

Listen to me Anne Corcoran and tell me I don't need flat-rate.

I left the workforce three years ago to look after a elderly and disabled relative. I use the internet mainly for online education so that in the event of my relatives's demise I will have kept my skills updated to be able to return to the workforce. As I don't have the clout of a regular decent wage now I cannot continue this online education without an affordable flat-rate.

There must be lots of people like me out there. The ODTR is denying us our rights by not forcing in flat-rate.

If some knows the personal email for Anne Corcoran at Eircom please tell me.

Regards, Bannerman

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 1:09am

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
Just to let you know that the IrelandOffline committe are really p****d off with Eircom's statements.

I have written to the Editor on behalf of IrelandOffline, probably too late for tomorrow's issue but hopefully they will carry it on Friday.

Don't know whether it's ethical to post the letter here before the editor gets it so I'll post it here on Friday.

Martin Harran

Martin I'm not trying to start a row but when I read the article my blood really boiled up.
Especially when so many SNL users have been dumped. But as I stated ACT at least was positive in his attitude.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 1:17am

Originally posted by obewan:

Martin I'm not trying to start a row but when I read the article my blood really boiled up.

Believe me, you're not the only one !

We have already requested a meeting with Eircom, believe me that if and when we get it, there will be a *lot* said about these comments!

BTW, I forgot to say thanks for posting this aricle, none of the committe had actually seen it, we must know about stuff like this.

Martin

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-06-2001).]

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 1:23am

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
Believe me, you're not the only one !

We have already requested a meeting with Eircom, believe me that if and when we get it, there will be a *lot* said about these comments!

BTW, I forgot to say thanks for posting this aricle, none of the committe had actually seen it, we must know about stuff like this.

Martin

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-06-2001).]

No problem Martin after all I did offer any help that I could give and to be truthful it was only by chance that I actually got the Times.
Hey maybe that means that fate is taking a hand in our fight.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 1:56am

I saw that article in tuesdays Irish Times myself and I found it quite interesting. I can see the demand for broadband stepping up and there are alot of people out there asking questions about it, like why isn't it available already. This is the kind of thing that is conducive to the release of broadband, and I like to see higher demand for it. Unfortuantely, Eircom are out to make 'profit'. They dont care for the customer needs at all, and Im sure your all aware of that, so I dont need to state the obvious

. Now if Eircom were to give us affordable, unmetered, flat rate internet access, they wouldnt make so much money off us. They would still make some money alright, but they want to milk us for every penny we have. They are a bunch of fraudulent ****ers who dont give a **** about us, only the money in short. They will never cut the Irish internet user some slack. They wont listen to us. This furthers my point on my idea of setting up our own ISP ( see topic: our own isp

). If you want something done lads and lasses, you have to do it yourself

Thanks for reading

Matfin

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 8:01am

Hi folks, did anyone find a link to this story on the Times website. A few people have asked about it on ie.comp; As i stated im my first post I'm not sure how to go about this.
I did a "search" myself but did not find it.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 10:38am

The article has probably been removed for being too contraversial(?). LOL.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 7:17pm

Originally posted by obewan:
if you people want I will print the whole story.

Obewan, would you mind posting the whole story or scan it and email it to me if you prefer. There is no link to it online and very few people seem to have seen it.

TIA

Martin Harran

Martin

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 9:00pm

Martin, I have a copy and will scan it and email it to you (and anyone else who wants to read it) later this evening.

John M.

dahamsta · 21-06-2001 10:11pm

Hi John,

Can you send a copy to storage@iewebs.com please?

Cheers,
adam

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 10:14pm

Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:

Obewan, would you mind posting the whole story or scan it and email it to me if you prefer. There is no link to it online and very few people seem to have seen it.

TIA

Martin Harran

Martin

I have sent it to your esat address. Scanner not working so I typed it verbatim from the article.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 10:27pm

I scanned it and distributed it to the Committee so if someone could either post the scan somewhere or else the text version Obewan typed up that would be great.

Adam - I emailed the scan to you but the mail bounced (reason: system config error)

John M.

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 11:28pm

This is full version of article. It is a long posting but I think people need to see it.

Thx to obewan for typing it out and sending it to me.

Martin Harran

Irish Times 19th June 2001 EBusiness Section

Headline: Flat rate story now flattened.

David Boland discovers why there is not a flat rate for Internet access here, and wonders when there will be.

The advent of a flat rate for Internet connection seems an obvious step to take. But it's not quite as straightforward as some people would believe. There is a host of regulatory and practicality issues that needed, and still need, to be overcome in order to overcome the nuances of the existing telecommunications network, and the business of Internet connection.
As Eircom own the lines, they have been in no hurry to offer a flat rate, and because of Eircom's ownership, other ISP's are unable to. There was a situation recently where a "no limits" product was offered by Esat Fusion, but this was withdrawn before it could come to fruition, due to the costs of running it. Since then there has been nothing offered, but this could all change soon.
The regulatory body regarding telecommunications, the ODTR(Office of the Director Of Telecommunications Regulations), was set up in 1997 to liberalise the communications market. They have recently issued two access-codes, which will allow other ISP's to offer a flat rate.
In march, the codes 1892 and 1893 were launched, and at the present time it is up to the operators to get the ball rolling. Now that the access code end has been sorted out, it is up to the individual ISP's to negotiate their own rate with Eircom.
This may not be as clear cut as it seems, with so much riding on the negotiations, but in the event of disputes, the ODTR would be there to mediate. What this means in the future is anybody's guess, but there has been a lot of speculation, based on case studies of other networks.
One accepted piece of wisdom is that a flat rate would mean a decrease in the number of ISP's out there, with only the bigger players able to pay the money to offer the standard rate. However, this is not necessarily the case, with a more open market. The real question at the moment, however, is "when will a flat rate be introduced into Ireland?"
"Not for months, and possibly years," says Andrew Conlan-Trant, director of marketing and products at Esat Fusion. "We offered a flat rate, but we had to take it of f the market because it was costing us a fortune. We were paying retail prices to Eircom, but a wholesale product has to be negotiated. There were similar experiences over in England, with AltaVista and FreeServe. They were paying retail prices to BT until OFTEL(the regulatory body in the UK) put pressure on them to deliver a wholesale product.
That product is called FRIACO, and is basically a wholesale flat rate which is in Britain and Germany among others. This, according to Mr. Conlan-Trant, is "the true enabler" of flat rate for Ireland. "The ODTR say that they have gone as far as they can by introducing the new codes, but the reality is that negotiations could take a few months, and may have to be referred back to them."
Where this might all become redundant is in the field of local loop unbundling(LLU), which would take sole ownership of the data part of the lines away from Eircom, even though they would retain ownership of the voice part. The DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) technology could make obsolete technologies such as ISDN, and is due to begin taking place in September.
This kind of opening up of the market could allow for a speedier introduction of a flat rate, which Andrew Conlan-Trant believes is of the utmost importance when it comes to Ireland's position as an e-commerce leader.
"Look at the latest Amarach figures," he says. Mobile phones have seen phenomenal growth, with over 70% penetration. The internet growth has slowed down, with only 30%. The price of Internet access must come down if we are to be a digital economy. Wholesale flat- rate is essential to enable retail, and retail flat-rate is essential to develop e-commerce.
This is a view which is not shared by Eircom, who say that they are listening to the market, and flat rate Internet is not high on the agenda.
"Look at the rate of adoption," says Anne Corcoran, head of marketing at Eircom.net.
"The moving up curve is very slow and gentle. People want their lives to be made as possible. It is big news in the media at the moment, but flat rate is just a debate. It is not coming from the customers."
Whatever the public's consciousness on the entire issue, it seems that flat rates are going to be an inevitable part of Internet life. It just remains to be seen how long it will take before either wholesale prices or LLU can make it a reality. It has already happened in the UK, and companies such as AOL have profited in Northern Ireland, where before they had no presence on the Island. Whether they can do the same here is a question that we will have to wait to be answered.

[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-06-2001).]

dahamsta · 21-06-2001 11:37pm

Oops! Sendmail never came back up after a reboot. Would you mind terribly resending it?

Cheers, and thanks,
adam

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 11:50pm

Martin, my typing is not as good as I thought. I left out one word as in:
"People want their lives to be made as "easy" as possible."

Everything is verbatim!

LegacyUser · 21-06-2001 11:54pm

Originally posted by obewan:
Martin, my typing is not as good as I thought. I left out one word as in:
"People want their lives to be made as "easy" as possible."

Everything is verbatim!

Actually there were a couple of minor typos I corrected, not sure if they were yours or journalists's

Martin

Irish Times Article (Part of).

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