Maybe I am a little naïve?

LegacyUser

Maybe I am a little naïve?

The way I see it, Eircom like any normal company want to make the most amount of profit possible. What possible reason do Eircom have for wanting to introduce a flat rate service or indeed maybe a broadband service? Absolutely none! They have a total monopoly and nothing can happen unless they want it to.

The only REAL way we could ever truly FORCE Eircom to introduce a flat rate service is to make it UNprofitable for them not to. That is all a real company will ever respond to.

So I ask everyone, what is the BEST way to make Eircom's current system UNprofitable? I remember the line in the 'matrix', (which I am sure they took from some book I just never read), well I don't remember the line word for word. The generally gist of it is that the best strategy is to use your enemy's advantages against them. What are Eircom's advantages? I mean what is Eircom's one and only advantage. They have a complete monopoly. So how do we use that against them? Come on people think!

Could the ODTR possibly get the government to introduce a new tax? Governments really like taxes. Could the government possibly charge a tax on every metre of copper wire that is buried under their roads across the country? There may well be some type of similar tax in place already, but again I am a little naïve in these matters. But if there is a tax already in place could the government not just put it through the roof? Or possibly make this tax a little bit more effective. The government will charge this tax on every metre of copper wire that does not have an open flat rate service operating along it, to its end users?

I do not see why the government cannot just screw Eircom for money until they do what is fair.

I am sure there are other ways we can make it totally UNprofitable for Eircom to continue with these third-world phone call charges. Or at least to make it MORE profitable for Eircom to introduce flat rate access and broadband. Any ideas anyone ?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nahdoic:
They have a total monopoly and nothing can happen unless they want it to</font>

actually eircom will be forced to unbundle, its out of their power to stop it, its just a matter of time.
that said, they were given a deadline by the EU to unbundle by the 1'st of this year, but now theres real interest in this topic and eircom is being closely monitored.

LegacyUser

Yeah they were given a deadline, but what happened when they didn't keep it? From the looks of it, NOTHING happened. Shouldn't they have received a hefty fine for this procrastination? If they were losing money from not introducing flat rate access and broadband services they would quickly introduce them. There is absolutely NOTHING stopping Eircom from introducing flat rate access in the next few hours. They just don't want to, because they can make so much more money from charging per minute. If I were running Eircom I'd want to keep per minute billing for as long as humanly possible. I'd stall and delay as much as I could. The only reason I'd introduce flat rate access and broadband services would be if it was UNprofitable not to or indeed if it was MORE profitable to do so.

We really have to 'stick' it to Eircom where it hurts the most, their gold-lined pockets. This is all a company will really respond to, their precious profit margins. Why aren't they being taxed and fined severely for these ludicrous delays?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:

actually eircom will be forced to unbundle, its out of their power to stop it, its just a matter of time.
that said, they were given a deadline by the EU to unbundle by the 1'st of this year, but now theres real interest in this topic and eircom is being closely monitored.</font>

I agree. As well as interest at home, there will also be interest from the EU. Eircom's tactics set a bad example for the other EU encumbant telcos. This could undermine LLU in the core EU countries.

dahamsta

FYI, I sent this note to the European Commissioner for Enterprise and Information Society, Erkki Liikanen, last night:

http://iewebs.com/~dahamsta/correspondence/LLU.Erkki_Liikanen.txt

I'll be forwarding a copy to the ODTR, Eircom and Esat with an RFC as soon as I get a chance. Note that I didn't represent myself as Ireland Offline, I think that should be up to the Ireland Offline committee, of which I am not a member. I would encourage them to talk to Commissioner Liikanen though.

Martin, I would appreciate it if you could forward relevant contact details for Esat and Eircom to me if possible?

adam

LegacyUser

Can I ask, when you say "Eircom will be forced" what does that really mean? From the sounds of things, this 'forcing' is nothing more than giving very strong recommendations, and outlining plans of what the EU and the ODTR think they should do. How have they ever been forced? What have they lost from not keeping to these deadlines or implementing these services? They've lost absolutely nothing, and they are cashing in on this per minute billing, and delaying it as long as they possibly can. We really do have to truly FORCE Eircom, right now, no more procrastinating, to keep to these deadlines. If they fail they should receive severe fines.

As I said, Eircom can in just a few hours introduce a flat rate access fee, and I believe they should receive a hefty fine from the government everyday until they finally introduce a flat rate access package.

Broadband would be great, but right now I would be thrilled with an unlimited 56k always-on connection for a flat rate of £20 a month (maybe I don't speak for everyone here, but I would jump at this offer, at least until ADSL comes in maybe next year, or the year after). Eircom have NO reason other than greed from introducing this service right now. The government really does have to step in, right now, and truly FORCE Eircom to introduce this service NOW. There is nothing stopping them! So why don't they do it? This would be an instant solution for the entire country, because no phone-lines would have to be updated anywhere to introduce this service, rural and urban areas would get it. With such a cheap solution, small businesses and personal users like ourselves would (I believe) jump at this offer. The benefits for the economic growth of this country would really be unreal, and this country would reap the rewards for years to come. Imagine every small business, trading on-line, updating their stock on-line, talking with other businesses on-line, having better communication between their different outlets, altogether just streamlining their organisation and making it more efficient and competitive.

God damn! Eircom please just offer the service already!!!

LegacyUser

"Force" will involve the imposition of fines and it is correct that none have yet been imposed with relation to LLU or flat-rate dialup internet. There are fines in place for late delivery of leased line services etc. but some industry groups reckon that they are too small to be effective.

dahamsta

I agree with you that fines should be the way to deal with an incumbent operator, since criminal proceedings would probably last longer in the courts, and I can hardly see the State imprisoning Alfie Kane and Ray MacSharry for their anti-competitive behaviour (although it's something I'd hold dear to my heart until my dying day).

The problem though, is that although it's never too late, it's unlikely to make a difference at this stage. If the government and the ODTR try to introduce legislation to enable them to fine Eircom, Eircom will battle it in the courts for god knows how long. Probably longer than it will take to actually get it unbundled with the current process. It should have been done a long time ago, at least at the start of this year, and in reality it should have been done at least a year ago, because the EU directive on unbundling was destined to go through.

I dunno, I see the whole thing in levels. At the bottom is us, the consumers and businesses; above us you have the OLO's, who have spectacularly failed to lobby both the public and the government; above them you have Eircom, who probably think they're acting in the best interest of their shareholders; above them you have the ODTR, who in reality have done quite a lot (but not enough); and above them you have the government, who are the only people really in a position to advance the process.

Unfortunately though, the government are pretty ignorant when it comes to tech, despite all the "ecommerce hub" rhetoric. They don't - or didn't at least - understand the issues fully, and they didn't open it up for consultation.

Who's getting hurt by all of this? Well it certainly ain't the government anyway - they have nice fat pipes into the government buildings, or, ironically, DSL lines. Seems like as good a reason as any why the local loop hasn't been unbunded. If it doesn't hurt them, they don't care...

adam

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dahamsta:

Martin, I would appreciate it if you could forward relevant contact details for Esat and Eircom to me if possible?

adam</font>

Sorry, I don't have a direct address for ACT, all our contact has been by phone, guess you have to just write to him at Esat.

When writing to Eircom, I wrote directly to Afie Kane at Stephen's Green - I was advised by someone 'in the know' to do this. Still awaiting reply but letter was only sent on Monday.

Great letter BTW

Martin

LegacyUser

Maybe I should get me a cushy government job, and get one of those lovely DSLs

Seriously though, does the government not realise how badly Eircom is holding back the e-commerce/internet development of this country? The meeting IrelandOffline had with the Minister of Public Enterprise seemed to go really well. We could surely build on this to lobby the government to fine or effectively tax Eircom to FORCE them into offering flat rate internet access to everyone across Ireland. Eircom has had a far too easy ride up till now. I think it's time someone burst their bubble.

Eircom may be able to battle it out in the courts about fines, but Eircom could not object to an extra tax that the government want to levy on all companies for every metre of copper wire buried under their roads across the country that does not have a flat rate service operating along it. A government can tax on whatever they please, right? There's not much you can do about that, except move to a different country and Eircom may find that a little tricky. If the government introduced this new tax tomorrow then there'd be a good chance we could have flat internet access by Monday, wouldn't that be nice. Hmm like I said I can be a little naïve in these matters

Eircom just please stop messing up Ireland's progress and just do it!

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nahdoic:
Maybe I should get me a cushy government job, and get one of those lovely DSLs
</font>

...or just get a job with Eircom. It was one of the perks that the union was seeking to maintain after the takeover. But could you live with the shame?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Seriously though, does the government not realise how badly Eircom is holding back the e-commerce/internet development of this country?
</font>

I have seen no printed evidence that they realise this. The Government are more interested in catering to the needs of multinationals. This may be changing slowly.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The meeting IrelandOffline had with the Minister of Public Enterprise seemed to go really well. We could surely build on this to lobby the government to fine or effectively tax Eircom to FORCE them into offering flat rate internet access to everyone across Ireland.</font>

Interesting...




[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 21-06-2001).]

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A government can tax on whatever they please, right?</font>

Wrong. IANAL, but I'm willing to bet that new legislation would have to be introduced to levy a tax like this. Even if that's not the case, Eircom is very strong on lobbying, which is hardly surprising considering a fair portion of the people in Eircom are politicians, ex-politicians and high-ranking civil servants. They also employ a huge legal team, which is a damn sight more productive than the management or support teams, and would be only too happy to throw more money at defending their monopoly instead of spending it on illogical things like, oh, say, upgrading their network. The government would win of course - especially if the OLO's lobbied heavily, which is unfortunately not a given - but it would be a long, drawn-out process, and would result in years of court cases and appeals.

This is a non-starter I'm afraid. By all means, consult a solicitor on it, but I'm willing to bet it's not as simple as that. If you think legal/governmental action is the way forward, you do have a few options though:

1) Lobby the government on LLU. Talk to your TD, talk to your MEP, talk to you local council or corporation, talk to anyone who'll let you into their office. Write clear, concise, and most importantly polite but firm letters to the Taoiseach and all government departments and TD's affected by the situation. Explain your situation, and explain that your vote in the general election will rely heavily on the matter.

2) Take 'em to court. You can pretty much take your pick here, although effectiveness and results are pretty unpredictable. You could bring charges against Esat for false and misleading advertising. You could bring charges against Eircom for being anti-competitive and an illegal monopoly. You could bring charges against the government and the ODTR for not forcing Eircom to comply with the EU directive.

Personally, I would favour the former, because the latter would drag on for years, with no guarantees at all. But I don't think it's going to be all that long to a general election, so why not make it an election issue? There's plenty of people out there who want always-on, flat-rate and broadband telecommunications, and there's a hell of a lot more who would want it if they *knew what it was*.

'Course, I'd love to go down the former route meself, if I had the money. I'd relish the thought of going into my local Garda station and asking them to open a case against Eircom, or the government, or even Esat. But of course, if I had the money, I'd have a leased line, and I wouldn't care, would I? Doesn't that pretty much sum it up?

adam

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 21-06-2001).]

MiCr0

Feel like voicing you option to the EU like dahamsta,
contact details here

http://europa.eu.int/comm/commissioners/liikanen/contact/index_en.htm

MiCr0

and maybe a quick read of this
<A HREF="http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p_action.gettxt=gt&doc=SPEECH/01/284|0|RAPID&lg=EN" TARGET=_blank>Unbundling of the Local Loop in the EU

Remarks at the European Parliament ITRE Committee

Strasbourg, 12 June 2001</A>

dahamsta

See above, I already wrote to Commisioner Liikanen.

adam

MiCr0

just be being pedantic

[This message has been edited by MiCr0 (edited 24-06-2001).]

dahamsta

Oh bum, sorry about that Micro, I didn't read it properly. My apologies.

adam