How can Eircom offer ADSL ?

LegacyUser

Just a query,

www.adsl.ie says that Eircom will offer ADSL in late summer/autumn. My question is:
How can Eircom offer ADSL if they are selling their own Fixed Lines to the velentia consortium ?? I mean, ADSL does have to go over the fixed lines to work, doesn't it ? so how can they offer a service if they don't have the means to ? Should'nt it be the velentia consortium that should be offering adsl ?

---

www.EFtraining.com

http://www.thealexandriaclan.barrysworld.net

dahamsta

If the Valentia consortium's bid for Eircom is successful - god help us - Valentia will be Eircom.

adam

LegacyUser

no actually hes right, there meant to be two companies, one will have all the lines and and the other will be a teleco,

thats what i was told by a guy working in eircom.
in every article on it, its allway the fixed line part of eircom they are biding for

Bard

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:

in every article on it, its allway the fixed line part of eircom they are biding for</font>

... as opposed to what exactly?

The "fixed line" part is what is left now that Eircell is in Vodafone's hands. It is ALL of what is now eircom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, dahamsta ! (not Gladiator)

---

Bard

---

First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

LegacyUser

no your right, the fixed line part is the heart of eircom, but this seems to be the plain, that or their just buying the lines and disolveing the rest of eircom into dust,

dahamsta

Ok, as far as I'm aware, this is how the situation stands:

1) Eircom quietly sheared the fixed lines off into another company about six months ago. This appears to be a rather odd pre-emptive strike aimed at stalling LLU, but ultimately it has little effect since it's still Eircom - Eircom owns the fixed lines company. (ESOT probably has a share too, which might be the reason they did it - if ESOT has a share, the union can tackle LLU in another way - that is, by refusing access to the exchanges.)

2) Pretty much all that's left of Eircom is the above-mentioned. Eircell is gone to Vodafone and all the multimedia companies are dead in the water. Eircom have shares in other businesses, but the core is operations and fixed-lines.

3) The consortiums are bidding for the whole kit and caboodle, or at least what's left of the kit and caboodle. Whoever wins will take control of Eircom, and so anything Eircom has control of. Hence, the winner will "be" Eircom.

adam

LegacyUser

so is www.adsl.ie false advertising if Eircom (the company that sold the fixed lines to the velentia consortium) actually don't have the means to roll out ADSL themselves ??

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ando:
so is www.adsl.ie false advertising if Eircom (the company that sold the fixed lines to the velentia consortium) actually don't have the means to roll out ADSL themselves ??</font>

Eircom used to be a fixed line business with a subsidiary, Eircell, the mobile network. When Eircell was sold to Vodaphone, Eircom reverted back to a fixed line business.

The media prior to the Vodaphone sale used to refer to Eircom's fixed line business but now, after the sale, this does not really make sense. Nevertheless, the media still sometimes use this terminology.

Eircom as a whole is being sold by the shareholders to Valentia. I think the only thing that Eircom do apart from fixed-line is international consultancy.

The www.adsl.ie should really be raised with the EIDR.

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ando:
so is www.adsl.ie false advertising if Eircom (the company that sold the fixed lines to the velentia consortium) actually don't have the means to roll out ADSL themselves ??</font>

But they do have the means to roll out ADSL themselves. They have the lines and they have the exchanges. Whether they should be allowed roll out ADSL before the local loop is unbunded is the real issue.

adam

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dahamsta:
But they do have the means to roll out ADSL themselves. They have the lines and they have the exchanges. Whether they should be allowed roll out ADSL before the local loop is unbunded is the real issue.

adam</font>

did i read that right, read that back to yourself. you want to stop eircom bringing out adsl untill llu is complete, ha, yea thats going to put pressure on the *******s, turn up the heat

anywho is generaly excepted that adsl would come out afew months before llu starts, and as ive stated in anotehr topic that will start in january(if esat's on the ball)
thats why i think adsl will come out in september, not because eircom say so.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dahamsta:
But they do have the means to roll out ADSL themselves. They have the lines and they have the exchanges. Whether they should be allowed roll out ADSL before the local loop is unbunded is the real issue.

adam</font>

If Eircom release ADSL in September (I'm still not sure if this will happen), it means that they believe they have lost the LLU battle and are getting in first. This might be a good thing if it spurs on Esat, the only other company interested in ADSL ATM. Eircom will probably come to dominate the market but if they are too outragious with their technical requirements, prices, limits etc, then Esat will be able to grab customers quite easily.

Unfortunately, as far as the ODTR are concerned, LLU has already occured. Without the pricing issue resolved, no company will come forward to compete with Eircom and we will be left with whatever Eircom's idea of ADSL is.

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">did i read that right, read that back to yourself. you want to stop eircom bringing out adsl untill llu is complete, ha, yea thats going to put pressure on the *******s, turn up the heat </font>

No, you didn't read it right at all. Did I say I "want to stop eircom bringing out adsl until llu is complete"? No. Don't put words in my mouth please. What I said was:

Whether they should be allowed roll out ADSL before the local loop is unbunded is the real issue.

Why shouldn't they be allowed? Because if they do, we will end up in the exact same position as the UK. Poor takeup, high pricing, little competition, LLU still up in a heap. If you unbundle the local loop first, the Regulator and the OLO's will only have to negotiate prices on lines and possibly interconnects, not the whole heap.

That will accelerate products and services to the marketplace, and create a good, competitive market structure. Competition will push prices down so that DSL services will be available to both consumers and businesses at an affordable level. Affordable pricing will encourage a rapid takeup, which will create revenue for providers, which will encourage them to improve their networks.

And then you hit the loop which mimics the mobile market in Ireland pretty well. Improved networks makes services available to more customers; more customers means more revenue; more revenue means improved networks. This could continue for several years until Ireland is the broadband "hub" the government wants us to be. And all the time business methods will be improving and consumers will be more connected than ever before.

Don't you see? The government's bluff and blunder about "eCommerce hubs" is bluff and blunder, but it is also a genuine possibility. It's economically viable, but it all relies on leveraging local loop unbundling. In fact, LLU is the fulcrum - it just needs to be positioned correctly. Their problem stems from buckling under to Eircom. If they stand up to Eircom - or the right person gets control of Eircom - it'll happen.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">anywho is generaly excepted that adsl would come out afew months before llu starts, and as ive stated in anotehr topic that will start in january(if esat's on the ball) thats why i think adsl will come out in september, not because eircom say so.</font>

I'm sorry Gladiator, I don't mean to disparage your knowledge of telecomm's, but nothing is generally accepted in the Irish telco market. It was generally accepted early last year that Eircom would roll out DSL, because they had a service to bundle with it. But then the Regulator slapped their wrist and that put paid to that.

Yes, you stated that LLU will start in January, but I don't believe that. It's not that I don't believe you, it's that no-one, literally no-one knows when the local loop will be unbundled at the moment. The Regulator may have a schedule, but schedules don't mean dick if it goes into the Four Courts. Eircom don't know and don't care at the moment, because it's not an issue while the takeover war is in progress. TOR and DOB probably have a schedule, but neither of them is in a position to decide anything at the moment.

Seriously - you can think what you want. And you can accept what you want. But there are no hard facts in either LLU or DSL, and making it sound like there are doesn't help matters. Hell, I hope you're right man. In fact, I hope you're wrong, I hope they'll unbundle the loop tomorrow and roll out DSL the next day. Let's be honest, there's nothing stopping them only greed. Like I said before though, I won't be holding my breath.

And, also like I said before, LLU is the key. You leave the local loop in Eircom's hands, you risk the farm, and the odds are stacked against you. The vig alone will break most OLO's if Eircom retain it.

adam

dahamsta

BTW, Why shouldn't they be allowed? is rhetoric. I'm not looking for or giving an answer, I'm simply suggesting one, thinking out loud. I'd like DSL as much as the next person, but considering how long we've waited for it at this stage, there's no point in thinking in the short term. In the long term, allowing Eircom to rollout DSL before LLU is potentially very dangerous.

Right now, it's my belief that LLU and flat-rate should be prioritised - in that order - by Ireland Offline, the ODTR, the government and the OLO's. It's a logical progression - if you unbundle the local loop, the rollout of flat-rate services will be relatively cheap and easy for the OLO's. And I guarantee broadband will follow very quickly.

Of course I want DSL. What I don't want is crappy services and ludicrous prices for several years to come. Like the current situation with plain vanilla Internet. This can be avoided.

adam

LegacyUser

i was just trying to say what Skeptic1 said, and llu has to happen by january, the odtr set up a time scale from start to finish on how long it should take an exchange to be opened up, all together eircom get something like 120 for the time the first request to unbundle the loope is made to the loope being unbundled, thats all well and good, but its broken up into stages and esat need to be on the ball to move as soon as each stage is complete. they can make the request start in august, thats how i work out january.

you see from august eircom will he fined(or so the odtr says) for not complying with llu,
in fact its will be illegal not to so esat can sue,

but the face remains that eircom could pull the same tricks as bt, and make working conditions so bad the process could drag on for months more.
but at this stage theres no stoping llu and eircom know it, they will try to delay it, bring out adsl and swipe the market before llu takes place just like bt


edit i see your point now, and its probably best if we wait untill eircom is sold which sould be complete with in the next 4 to 8 weeks, before we venture any more opinions, the whole game plain may change depending on who takes over eircom and how much control they have


[This message has been edited by Gladiator (edited 03-07-2001).]