ADSL and FRIACO the focus.......

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 11:30am #1

Although I am raging form the I-Stream info posted on the boards I still think that the most important focus is FRIACO with Eircom, the ODTR Esat and the rest, and the whole LLU issue.

From what I have researched today on various ISP feed back boards around the world ISP's are reviewing ADSL services and introducing limits after reviewing their economic models. Many ISP's had begun ADSL roll out feeling they could promise the world only to have to introduce capping on users later in the service. They are focusing on businesses for the take up and using control at the exchange ends to limit the very things broadband is for, eg. preventing streaming video etc! I feel the whole ADSL issue is going to be a huge can of worms and it will be a continuous uphill battle until the day we have fibre to our homes.

As the service is announced and rolled out:

1) It will take FOREVER to roll it out. Eircom began seeking new engineers for the DSL roll out last February and they simply could not get the engineers they needed, and if their record is anything to go by on ISDN and leased lines (in a state run body where I do contract work we have been waiting over 4 months!) it will crawl out not roll out.

2) Regional areas (although there is no need for this) will be last to get it. Info on network models I have been reading (Get the DSL source book at http://www.paradyne.com/sourcebook_offer/ to get up to speed) suggest that attenuation can be catered for and even without the use of repeaters you'd be surprised how far they can reach with sDSL.

3) The telcos will impose seemingly crazy limits to cover their asses.

In short we are going to be fed as little as possible to keep us hungry and the prices will indeed as stated on the boards prevent people taking it up and therefore giving Eircom excuses to dilly dally on it, as the demand will be low.

But on the other hand 56k dial up has done many of us from day one and the one thing we should clearly be able to argue for and fight for flat rate availability. I feel from some reading and research that the whole ADSL issue is likely to get nasty whereas FRIACO shouldn't have too.

An issue that is quite important for ADSL and in fact FRIACO in some areas is the state of Eircom's copper plant, this is something I would like to see them being honest about. If its a case of Eircom admitting that their copper plant around the county is in a heap that is the very thing the Government should take on to correct, by way of financial assistance and keeping over zealous traffic directors in the corpo from increasing road digging rates by 800% at least until we have the copper sorted. I am partly guessing here about the state of the copper but info on other mailing lists would suggest that Eircom apart from being run very badly internally have wasted a alot of time whcih they could have put to good use to improve the copper plant and are lying about its state. This would be echoed in there cautiousness on the never ending trials. But they have no excuse, IP traffic is close to if not overtaking voice traffic and they have been aware of its increase over the years. Its not like this all suddenly happened. One wonders what they have been planning for at all?

D. Long.

[This message has been edited by Dangger (edited 13-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 11:38am

personaly i dont see the bandbidth problem,
theres more bandwidth in this tiny little ireland then any otehr eu country, in fact most eu bandwidth come through ireland,
and they are still building more and more connection, boston, korea, new york and the like,
what the hell is wrong with these people,
Why is bandwidth so expensive, personaly i dont think it is, they just want us to fail

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:08pm

HERE HERE I agree. With our fabulous and growing backbone bandwidth should not be the problem. Is it a simply question of fools on the hill? The telcos seem to be terrified of giving us the fat pipes. Are they worried that we are all going to use VoIP to strip them of their voice income?

Is it just that the ignorance of businesses to the available bandwidth is exactly what allows Eircom to cream such profit. If this is the case education of the facts and eradication of such ignorance is just as important as lobbying.

[This message has been edited by Dangger (edited 13-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:09pm

They are focusing on businesses for the take up and using control at the exchange ends to limit the very things broadband is for, eg. preventing streaming video etc! I feel the whole ADSL issue is going to be a huge can of worms and it will be a continuous uphill battle until the day we have fibre to our homes.

Unforunately, I agree wholeheatedly. Most of the comments made here about obout broadband in other countries being almost free, 8 meg downstream are laughably out of date, because, as you point out, nobody can possibly make money off a service like that...

2) Regional areas (although there is no need for this) will be last to get it. Info on network models I have been reading suggest that attenuation can be catered for and even without the use of repeaters you'd be surprised how far they can reach with sDSL.

I don't think attentuation is the major problem in the country; as you point out its relatively easy to deal with when using other flavours of DSL. I would say the main problem is a lack of bandwidth to local exchanges in the country (ask anyone who has tried to buy a 2meg leased line in Roscommon or somewhere

). And then, there's the whole scale of a project - extending local broadband access nationwide really is an absolutely massive project, both in engineering and logistical terms and vastly bigger than laying those fibre rings that the government keeps bleating about

Are they worried that we are all going to use VoIP to strip them of their voice income?

Nah, thats a troll. Usable VoIP requires support on the DSLAM, new DSL modems and a different service class on the DSL backhaul, so even if they gave us plenty of bandwidth, VoIP wouldn't really be practical.

And somewhow I don't think sortware versions like dialpad.com are going to put Eircom out of business anytime soon

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 13-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:26pm

so what you saying is all this bandwidth is in dublins, east point fibre ring, city west, and the 10gbps ring around cork airport.
and a few others

dahamsta · 13-07-2001 12:27pm

No doubt someone knows more about this than me, and I'd be delighted to be corrected, but AFAIK Ireland doesn't have the bucketload of capacity people seem to think we have. Sure, we have fine big pipes in Ireland, but a lot of that capacity is driving straight through us, to the UK and in some cases onto Western Europe. Not only that but bandwidth charges in Ireland are excessively high, as anyone with a leased line will tell you. That's more likely greed on the part of the telco's though, which demonstrates a cartel arrangement (I don't think there can be any doubt about this, although I think it's by design rather than by agreement). Most importantly though, the fibre network in Ireland is pretty shoddy by international standards. Sure, all the main cities are linked up, but there's very little fibre going out to the Wesht for example. Another example of the state of our network is a Cork company that's been getting some press recently, the boss of which told me he peers in Dublin because although there's a POP in Cork, an engineer has to be brought from Dublin if it goes down. (I don't know if that's true now, or even if it was true then, I'm just repeating what I was told.) And isn't a good portion of the fibre in Ireland still dark?

adam

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:42pm

Originally posted by Gladiator:
so what you saying is all this bandwidth is in dublins, east point fibre ring, city west, and the 10gbps ring around cork airport.
and a few others

Naw, but in other countries, building large fibre networks is just the start. For example, we have this 'huge' network that goes to Galway. It doesn't run through every exchange along the way though, so although the odd town alongside it may be lucky enough to have an STM-1 running through it, a town 10 miles away does not. For that town to even consider broadband, a spur needs to be taken from the other town.

Now repeat that for 500 towns throughout the state, and you have a huge project in itself, never building the DSL side of the service.

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:44pm

their still building the citywest dark fibre ring

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 12:47pm

>> And isn't a good portion of the fibre in Ireland still dark?

Good point AFAIK there is a huge amount of dark fibre (just plain fibre with no transmission capabilities at either end) buried. It was probably all put in their by private contractors with Govt. money and there it will stay paid for and unlit!

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 1:12pm

Originally posted by hudson806:
Nah, thats a troll. Usable VoIP requires support on the DSLAM, new DSL modems and a different service class on the DSL backhaul, so even if they gave us plenty of bandwidth, VoIP wouldn't really be practical.

Are you talking about VoDSL, where the entire spectrum is devoted to digital signal and voice is encoded over this? VoIP just needs a decent bandwidth TCP/IP connection, AFAIK. I agree that standard VoIP over ADSL would not present big competition to POTS.

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 1:30pm

Are you talking about VoDSL, where the entire spectrum is devoted to digital signal and voice is encoded over this?

Well, 'VoDSL' is usually IP encapsulated in ATM, so VoDSL and VoIP aren't mutually exclusive, although some ATM-only phones are now appearing on the market.

Its probably worth noting, too, that VoDSL doesn't have to use up the voice spectrum, although you can squeeze a few more simultaneously calls out of it if you do.

The point I was making though, which you mentioned in your post, is that PC-based VoIP really isn't going to put Eircom in the poorhouse.

The overall point I was making, though, is that Eircom need not worry about its customers using VoIP, since for it to it to be good enough for non-geeks to use it, Eircom need to install the VoIP equipment (which, no doubt, they will choose not to do...)

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 13-07-2001).]

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 3:38pm

Originally posted by hudson806:
The overall point I was making, though, is that Eircom need not worry about its customers using VoIP, since for it to it to be good enough for non-geeks to use it, Eircom need to install the VoIP equipment (which, no doubt, they will choose not to do...)

It's good to have people in the know on these boards. The fact that Eircom will not choose to implement VoIP at the exchange level is an example of the sort of thing that bothers me. My hope is that under LLU, other companies will be able to do this sort of thing if they wish. I suspect, however, that the allowed equipment has already been agreed upon and this will not change.

I agree with Dannger that it is the framework that needs to be put in place, be it LLU or FRIACO. Assurances from individual companies are not worth much. So far the frameworks currently in place have tended to impeed innovation.

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 4:47pm

and for those less well up on what you talking about?

LegacyUser · 13-07-2001 5:25pm

>> and for those less well up on what you talking about?

Well here is a starting point ....

http://www.itcom.itd.umich.edu/voip/voip.article.html

ADSL and FRIACO the focus.......

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