Notes from Seminar

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:15am #1

Well, the seminar has come and gone. Let me first thank everyone who showed up, donated in some way, or just has had kind words (and not so kind :-) ) for us. It was a bit of a long, hectic day, and I'm glad to be home and working out my notes :-).

Now, the notes I took are not complete at all (at one point I had to leave the room, another time my battery died and I focused on not losing everything I had typed to that point), but should give a good overview of what happened. David Long took some notes as well, which I hope he will add to mine, as well as any press coverage of the event (the Tribune had a photographer there -- taking way too many pics of me in the back of the room, sigh). BUT we did get the whole thing on minidisc, and will get that out as quickly as we can. As well, AnnaLivia FM's Into the Net show (available in the Dublin area) will do their show on the seminar focusing mainly on eircom and Martin, if I remember correctly. That will air tomorrow night at 7p on AnnaLivia (103.2fm), so tune in if you can.

To begin, I missed Mary O'Rourke's opening address. Slap me later.

Next up was our own Martin Harran...here's his speech:

What Do Users Want?

IrelandOffline started up just 3 months ago. We decided very early on that
we had three main objectives:

Unmetered access
Local Loop Unbundling
Broadband

Now, I have to admit that up until I got involved with IrelandOffline, I
didn't really understand any of this stuff - I'm a not a "computer person" -
I'm a "person who uses computers".

As I started to educate myself on these issues, I got a wonderful surprise -
they are already all there !

After all, we have unmetered access with Esat's Surf No Limits and NTL's
weekend package; local loop unbundling took place on January 1st; Eircom is
to roll out broadband in September!

Unfortunately, like all education processes, I soon found out that the
theoretical and the real situations are very different.

What is the real situation ?

Unmetered access - NTL's weekend package is only available to a very small
percentage of people. The Esat Surf No Limits package is closed off to new
subscribers and they have publicly stated that the whole package may have to
be withdrawn. Incidentally, for the same cost as their package, people
living 2 miles from me across the border in Northern Ireland get 24/7
access!

Local Loop Unbudling - not one loop has yet been unbundled; we know that
Esat have been in negotiations with Eircom for at least 3 months now but
there is no sign of any outcome to this.

Broadband - promised regularly for the last 2 years and most recently for
September looks to be delayed for some more months whilst Eircom and the
ODTR argue about prices.

This is what is killing internet access in Ireland - not the technology, not
the infrastructure - it is down to the time that it takes to make things
happen.

Let's look at broadband just as an example:

Late 1999
Internal ADSL trials, Eircom using Newbridge kit, half the world
using Alcatel kit.

February 2000
Alcatel buys Newbridge

April 2001
Promise of Bitstream access for LLU

Summer 2001
Eircom changes technology supplier to Alcatel and delays Bitstream to
September with pricing promised for 11th June
(Now, remember that Alcatel bought Newbridge last year and Eircom was using
Newbridge already so what took a year to decide?)

11th June -
Nothing happens

9th August
Eircom delivers pricing to ODTR who rejects the submission

29 August
TODAY - some TWO years since trials of ADSL started in Ireland - no
broadband.

Going forward:
Sept 5th
New pricing to be submitted by Eircom

Sept 28
Eircom supposed to launch Bitstream service - with what pricing?

Nov 5th (or earlier)
ODTR will approve/ reject / impose pricing decision on Eircom

Over 2 years and nothing to show for it! I'm a businessman and if I had a
business that took that long to sort out its products and prices, I would
definitely be kicking some ass - if the company survived that is! What makes
it worse, of course, is that we're talking about IT here, not any ordinary
business and it has been said often enough that a month in IT equates to a
year in ordinary business - anyone got a calculator - what does 2 years
equate to then?

How important is internet access?
Well, in my opinion, apart from any social factors and educative factors, it
is vital to the ongoing growth of our economy. I have a background in the
Clothing and Textiles industry. When I went into that industry over 30 years
ago as a young man - a very young man J - it was a thriving industry playing
a major role in the economy. That industry has almost vanished now. A lot of
our economic success in recent years is down to the hardware and software
industries. Unfortunately, we have seen very bad news from this sector in
recent times and, whilst we all hope it is a short-term problem, the sector
is unlikely to prosper in this part of the world in the long term.

The key growth area is information management. The internet will lie at the
heart of this and unless we get our act together quickly, we will miss out
on it.

Big businesses grow out of small businesses. Our members include a lot of
small software development companies - maybe just employing 2 or 3 people,
but these are the businesses that can grow and prosper if they are given the
right tools. This business area is totally independent of geographical
location. How can companies in Ireland hope to compete against, for example,
similar businesses in the UK who have broadband for about £40stg a month
when the Irish ones are depending on 56k modems for which they typically pay
up to £400 per month - a tenth of the speed for ten times the cost!

What is Ireland's performance?
Let's look at a few figures from the OECD review published earlier this
year:

Broadband Internet Access
Ireland's broadband penetration is just 0.01% of the total population, less
than all EU countries except for Greece and Luxembourg.

Internet Subscribership
Just 10.8% of Ireland's total population is subscribed to an Internet
service. In Denmark, a country of similar size, the figure is double
(22.3%).

Average Usage
In Ireland, the typical Internet user spends just over 5 hours per month
online, less than all but one of the other countries measured by the OECD

Internet Access Costs
Ireland fares poorly compared to its colleagues in the OECD:
40 hours peak time Internet access: 9th highest out of 30
40 hours off-peak time Internet access: 19th highest out of 30
Residential telephone tariffs: 7th highest out of 30

There have been recent statements made that there is no real demand for
internet access in Ireland. This is illustrated by Eircom's latest
advertising campaign with their friendly mouse to encourage higher internet
usage. Ladies and gentlemen of Eircom - have you lost the plot completely?
How the heck can you expect people to make more use of the internet if you
don't give them decent access?

Let's look back at one of the OECD figures - average hours online per user
per month. Lets look at the USA and New Zealand, the tow countries with the
longest history of unmetered access - average usage 35 hours compared to a
miserable 5 hours in Ireland. "Ah but, " you may say, "Ireland is not like
those countries!" Is it not - lets not forget that when Esat decided to cut
back its user base, thye took a cut of point of 75 hours per month. That
means that there were 2000 users spending more than 75 hours on line per
month, more than twice the level of the USA and New Zealand! In our
discussions with Esat they have steadfastly refused to give us average
figures for all users but we would be most surprised if they weren't close
to the USA/New Zealand figures.

There's a very simple lesson here - give people unmetered access and their
usage will accelerate rapidly.

What do users want?
As I already said - unmetered access, Local Loop Unbundling and broadband -
but most of all we want them NOW.

A final point I would like to make.

Today's generation of Irish people are a very proud generation. We have held
our heads up high in the rest of the world in so many areas in the last
number of years - sport, music, culture, and, not least, our economic
miracle. Why do we have to be the laughing stock of Europe in the area of
internet access?

When our government talks about of us becoming the e-hub of Europe, it isn't
just a pipe dream, it's something we are perfectly capable of achieving,
something we want to achieve. We can only do it, however, if we get of our
asses and deal with the things we have to deal with.

That's the real message from this seminar, distinguished speakers and
guests, quit the bickering, quit the blame everyone else syndrome, put aside
the short term self-interest and please get on with the job.

Thank you.

Got a great round of applause.

Then it was time for Etain Doyle, the telecoms regulator. I have my notes, but her speech has been posted on the ODTR site at http://www.odtr.ie/docs/odtr0168.doc. These are my bits:

remove barriers, open up markets and open up creativity and development
energy of the market extremely important

three licences for broadband were given

it is difficult to run any kind of company unless you have some kind of increased access (talking about any company out there who is trying to do net stuff)

more than anxious to support flat rate access codes and will intervene if necessary

2 part charging will take place shortly (distinction between voice and net calls) should reduce cost of net calls to the operator and ODTR would like to see that reduction passed on to consumers

more interest for LLU stirring at the moment

will defend ODTR interm pricing with eircom's suit

will issue response on 01/47paper (the white paper that David Long worked on a response to) shortly

major companies for whom delivery of leased lines are important

dial up access--increasing complexity of models

PSTN circuit switching need to move away from that

what kind of access mechanisms are available? looking forward to GPRS and 3G, has seen an improvement over past year with WAP

Next up was Derek Kickham, CEO of Esat Fusion:

This is a debate that needs to be had

look at history of market

overall turndown of tech sector

role of OLOs in development of market

economic department

over a million do access net in Ireland

3 years ago net was 1/7 in size

oceanfree.net was launched June 9,1999, first of its kind

£120 a year plus per minute before oceanfree.net first free internet access offering no subscription

30K households online

flat rate was needed, believed there was a market for it, understood it would make a loss, expectations is that it would pay off so they did it

created a market, tried and tried hard to get flat rate access (sustainable economic basis)

provide a means to make Ireland an internet savvy population

wiling to accept a loss

demand for internet access is there all flavors, there now and will be in future

pushed market as far as we can push it

only economic model for net access in Ireland on a sustainable basis is pay per minute

stuck in sept 99. No new products for internet access since then

static market right now

ireland is a well fibered country, now we just need to take that fiber and use it

getting fiber into all the businesses in ireland is prohibitively expensive

when times are tough, ever more important to figure out what the edge is and do it

cutting edge communications network is necessary

need friaco and LLU to help people move up as they become more comfortable

in the uK 40% of homes claim to be connected

cannot provide £14.99 a month flat rate access in Ireland, just can't

the way forwared where do we go from here

FRIACO is market enabler

wil not provide a solution to 200K homes with PCs who are not on the net

DSL not a solution..need appropriate stepping stones to lead these people online

cannot see economically viable way to continue to provide flat rate access to 18K customers.

need leadership, vision.

timetable
fines and penalties
by odtr
everyone working together to put together a framework that is sustainable in Internet time
1.25 million online, 98% paying by minute
3h 56m average usage
incentives to bring households online
need vision, leadershop and action, and we need it now

Soula Evans from eircom was up next. This is not going to be the most comprehensive part of the notes as I was sitting in the back of the room and couldn't see her slides or hear her very well. Once I get her slides in the morning, I can put more notes together (she worked mainly off them). Here's what I do have:

less expensive than nine countries for 20 hours off peak access

top five countries for percentage of internet users shopping online

second only to finland in internet access points in public

230% growth in last 2 years

many different internet access ways in ireland

ISDN, hi speed, dial up and DSL soon

last quarter, decline in pc usage, net access plays a lesser role compared to computer literacy/kids education

73% say cost is not the issue for not using net

Boredom number one reason to stop using Net

47% of adults have little or no interest in the net

campaign for existing and new users

the internet in ireland is well positioned
wide variety of access and isp offerings
barriers to growth: content ablility and percieved benefits of net uses
only commercially sustainable propositions form infrastructure.

---Tea Break---
The Question and Answer period came up next, which was definitely interesting. I've gotten the jist of most of the answers, but there are a few that I need to get more info on...

Q and A

What real changes to Internet access do the panel foresee by the end of this
year?

Etain: no reason why there would not be loops unbundled. don't see why bitstream should not be available. 1892 1893 fixed wireless should be available.

Derek: infrastructure etc are there, is the will there? look over the 2-year period he spoke of, rate of development in that period isn't a sign that we'll see a phenomenal change between now and christmas.

Soula: expect to see mid-40s (percentages) in terms of internet penetration in ireland, and hopes to see more content being developed or more people using the content and finding the benefits of the internet. in sept, there will be something very different: the beginning of ADSL. how much will it take off? she'd like to see it take off hugely. very confident about september 28th.

Question from audience-Paul Cunnane--exception that Derek and Soula have said regarding infrastructure in place for broadband--he can't have broadband fixed or wireless, including ISDN.

From audience- Thomas Bridge--Soula, adsl out on 9/28 (limited rollout?) When would eircom have products out in other urban and rural areas?

soula--sustainable models. watching launch of dsl depending on business cases., as number starting in dublin and on to rest of country, depends of demand and commercial sustainablility

What percentage of the Irish population should eventually have access to
broadband and over what timescale?

Soula--everybody, everywhere. the more who have access, the more I can sell, the better for me, the better for customers. commercial sustainability, cost of infrastructure, realize how much access infrastrucrure costs.

Martin brings up point of a little village in Donegal..how long will they have to wait?

Soula--it depends on what you mean by broadband--want to talk to paul--would love to sell him Hi Speed.

Martin introduces Niall from the Department of Public Enterprise:
Niall--objectives for end of year: hi speed trunk lines regional infrastucture, see signifigant completion of govt driven regional broadband investment projects, conclude contracts of additional broadband networks (fiber), see progress with digital terrestrial tv inititive, comm regulations 1996 (odtr) and learn from that experience, see it enacted, digitial media district (digital media lab) setting up as statutory footing

Johnny McCoy--Will the investment keep up? so we don't lose our footing to India, other European countries, etc.

Andrew O'Shaughnessy (chairman IIA)--Are you happy with the speed at which LLU is happening in Ireland? If not, what do you ened to happen in order for your dept to speed that up?

Etain--never happy with speed of anything always want things move faster. if you're not looking ahead to the vision of being there, you're not planning to get there. wished on 1 January that all companies that wanted LLU had moved on, hasn't happened. wish to see conclusion of ddiscussions with eircom, esat and other comp on commercial underpinnings. additional enforcement powers (regards to IP networks) essential to move forward very fast-- if there are to be provisions, move on more quickly.

Investment q--Soula--not a matter days that adsl comes out...out of investment, taking a risk, investing on hi speed, infrastucture, fiber, captial expenditure by eircom is in 100's of mil. invest all the time

(missed the question)
David--what goodies would be in bag? want to see one of our three objectives done...friaco debate moved forward in teh next few months. there, avail, ready.

Do the panel think it is acceptable that 3 months after Esat have submitted
a Statement of requirements for FRIACO, there is still no indication as to
when Eircom will provide it?

Derek--going on for 2 years, not 2 months. acceptable? no. should be the case? no. things that depend on country wide systems will not happen by christmas. issue of willingness to make that happen, if we dn't keep eye on the ball, we'll have groundhog day, again.

Soula--don't actually know, different part of company pass to pat

Pat Galvin--this has generated most heat? undercurrent that eircom is constantly obstructing...16th July letter to Esat was last communication, haven't heard from them since.
friaco: advantage is price, but not alway cheaper. the cost of traffic still needs to be paid for. costs will not magically disappear. current rate from eircom for interconnect is cheapest in Europe. only company that is risking widespread investiment, countrywide. short term would be good, but it has to be commercially viable. it is in question in terms of operation in other countries--if friaco is so great, why is there only 40% in UK penetration. IP platforms is future. if eircom has to uipgrade the PSTN, it would slow down other network upgrades and construction.

esat regualtion, david--curious that effiecitent operator, OLO can come in and get the friaco access, original operator makes money off that, but has eircom detirmented that it cannot happen, so they won't.

Joe McCarthy--dry copper...in 1996 withdrew availablity of dry copper. there are people who run SDSL for themselves over dry copper. 90£ a year, flat rate. genuine access to local loop. can they (eircom) reoffer dry copper so that users can choose ISPs.

At what stage do you decide when things progress too slowly?

etain--when one side says things aren't working. up to the parties to come in and say they have an issue.

how many months do you think it's too many?

etain--it's a matter of one of the two companies to say something.

frances bugge core value--both telcos have made it plain that they will rule out infrasturces on commercial viability. economic threshold for light wire? public sector volleys to mke economically viable?

Lisa Clarkin UTV Internet--we have flat rate in the north. just here to observe, don't want to get into discussing our terms and conditions of the north.

neil laney--privy to adsl trials, don't think eircom has consumer in heart. set top boxes and large amount of work in video on demand. opinion is more interested in holding the customers wallet compared to getting the product out.

pat--private wires over copper--outdated service. change with sector over past year. took a decision, scaled back the investment to keep it viable.

Niall, do you think the dept of enterprise does the ehub of europe?

as a generall point, the internet is a very fast moving arena. don't want ot be drawn into it since it's a reguatory thing.

soula--urge people ireland is doing extremely well

walter iol no limits user--what use is a watchdog without any teeth? need fines, penalties, etc.

etain--the odtr do intervene in pricing between eircom and other companies. interconnect fees, llu (bitstream), cost effective. have set prices for ordinary copper wire and line sharing (court case), our position to bitstream is public at the moment...recent articles. want it to be resloved try to let market move things forward. set pricing for the bits that are needed by the companies.

What factors should the ODTR take into consideration in deciding appropriate
prices for Internet access?

derek--etain doesn't set retail prices. market does sort out compettiton and prices. understand eircom's commercial interests, and we will try to follow ours. would liekto see more powers
for penalties and fines, well, £1500 or pull license...one is draconian and one is ludicrous.
desire to change, it won't happen if you don't have. friaco is not on their agenda (what he heard pat say)

pat--market dictates the price. ireland has liberalized market more than anyone else in eu. eirocm has delivered for ireland, eircom will continute to do so.

seamus ryan--pat-we'd like to punish eircom for dragging feet on pricing (not getting product to market). Regualtion (ODTR) won't intervene unless one party believes negotiations have broken down. I can see CEO of Esat and the telecoms regulator on podium sitting next to each other. Derek, turn to the regulator and say "Madam I believe negotiations are going too slowly".

Derek-- at this point, the only people who are hurting finaancially are us. (Esat) want to move as fast as possible.

naill, along same lines of pricing structure...small country, abition, how important are pricign?

niall--essential. drive demand and you lower prices. french gov is offering cheap loans for net connections. create right kind of policy environment. progress issues like friaco is in near future, net economoy moves fast, we need ot resolve issues. pricing is essential.

daivd, how critical is price in the whole thing?

daivd--stunting availabilty. peole are as concerned as availabiltiy, but not always cheapest. danger of product never getting out there.

etain--ie internet rates, bottom of eu rates. did consider price of 32 euros was substanial, our sums (taking into consideration many different factors) were 1/3 that. rate of fundamentatl copper loop is middle internationally. reasonable rates that we have set.

soula-- we're not talking about privce and availablity, we're tlaking dsl and highspeed. the the neg has nothning to do with avialibility.

tom murphy (to eircom)--800% growth over last 6 months on boards.ie. Maybe people are bored waiting for their pages to load on your dial up access.

Didn't give name: To Pat...you say that you have invested £30mil in schools...how come we only have 2 free hours a month from eircom in my school?

what role can IOFFL play goign forward?

derek--testimony of growing maturity of ireland, power of the net pulled poeple together with a common interest, and that's good. now at a point at having a mature debate with a meaningful issue

soula--one of a number of ways to debate issues. signifigant role...working to find out what you use and what requirements are. important the way the debate is carried out. enter debate open minded, that's best way to proceed. looking forward to sharing with you and what it's about. commercial decisions that fail and succeed.

etain--delighted to see group going. sme sector is one that is slower than bigger companies at adopting. number of things have been raised. and looking forward to seeing things on her desk tomorrow to get things forward. made enourmous strides in moving things forward. can be dealt with, can be solved, looking forward.

niall--welcome group into the debate. debate had a lot of decourm, thnk that debate online has same decorum and had a reasoned debate today. like online forum.

david--focus of frustration to get group together and we're moving quickly over last 3-4 months. most important that our voice is heard. memberships numbers steadily growing. we look forward to when we're no longer needed.

final q--fergus macdonald (fergus)--pat and soula--brave people, we have to appercaite the fact hey turned up. eircom's vision of what hte internet is is wrong (dial up service, entertain media, speare time thing) hopefully we'll provide you with a different point of view soon.

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:18am

Amazing work Elana. Really amazing.

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:23am

Wheres Gladiator's xlnt contribution??

Great stuff Elana. I'm printing it off for some bedtime reading!!

Thx

80p.
SAVE CHIP !!

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:26am

There's gotta be some decent news stories in there. Esp when you consider ENN and ireland.com both reported pretty lame Eircom and NTL press releases today..

To kick off:

Esat - why the delay in calling in the regulator?

Eircom - why bother with residential DSL when you're making stacks more with rip-off per minute dial-up over the voice network?

Esat - why don't you start using LLU and your own kit to service this large unaddressed market you have identified?

Eircom - You build business models and products around a public expectation of the internet as the slow, dial-up/ISDN, largely one-way medium it is at present. Your claims of lack of public interest and boredom are a self-fulfilling prophecy due in no small part to your own approach to the market.

[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 30-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 1:45am

ekehoe, fantastic reading that was! cheers for posting it.

WILL D

Bard · 30-08-2001 3:41am

Originally posted by ekehoe:

Didn't give name: To Pat...you say that you have invested £30mil in schools...how come we only have 2 free hours a month from eircom in my school?

That was Gladiator...

GOOD QUESTION, Gladiator... well done.

I'll reply more tomorrow. I had to go directly from the seminar to work- and just got back now from there... knackered!

Would have liked to have talked to some of the contributors more in person but time and committments didn't allow that... ah well...

tomorrow is another day

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:48am

Originally posted by Fergus:
Eircom - why bother with residential DSL when you're making stacks more with rip-off per minute dial-up over the voice network?

This is something I'd have liked to ask Pat Galvin.

Since 40% of Eircom's call revenue (or maybe it's local call revenue) comes from Internet calls, I can see why they don't want FRIACO.

However, this huge chunk of money is something that they pretty much stumbled onto, it was not the result of any strategic plan.

That being the case, does Eircom feel this massive source of income from dial-up Internet calls is part of its current business plan for the future? Does it intend on relying on this obscenely high-margin income indefinitely?

If so, they are bloody foolish. It may take years to build a widespread alternative, but people who are getting ripped off will find another way. In the end, Eircom will be left with nothing but the handful of poor newbies they recruit with the guy in the mouse suit while the seasoned heavy users abandon them.

yellum · 30-08-2001 11:19am

Elana,
Great work. Well done. If you submit some of the Eircom statements to theRegister.co.uk along with a press release you might get a good story. "Internet is boring says Eircom " , "Eircom on Internet: Nothing to See Here, Move Along "

I think theres some Irish lads still working with them. Maybe submit it to them. Try: kieren.mccarthy@theregister.co.uk

Whats next for IrelandOffline ?

What would be good to see on the site is some of the statistics and average costs of Internet Access. I was looking at all those figures for regular internet users. How may of these are 3rd level college students ? Theres free high speed internet access for students in most colleges, how many 3rd level students are there ? 300,000 ? This would take a large chunk out of the figures for regular internet users.

Also has anyone been in touch with IBEC or any other SME organisation like the SFA ? http://www.sfa.ie seems partly sponsored by Eircom but I'm sure they would like cheaper net charges and greater bandwidth for their members.

I think the backing of more SME type bodies will get the group further noticed and respected.

dahamsta · 30-08-2001 11:28am

seamus ryan--pat-we'd like to punish eircom for dragging feet on pricing (not getting product to market). Regualtion (ODTR) won't intervene unless one party believes negotiations have broken down. I can see CEO of Esat and the telecoms regulator on podium sitting next to each other. Derek, turn to the regulator and say "Madam I believe negotiations are going too slowly".

CLASS!!!

adam

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 11:31am

Originally posted by dahamsta:
CLASS!!!

It got equal applause and hooting as devore's comments about eircom :-).

E

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 11:45am

that was class, i didnt know it was seamus but great show,

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 11:52am

Finally got off my **** and decided to start using boards in parallel with ie.comp. Usenet is just so much handier!

Anyway, in relation to the SDSL that was mentioned at the meeting, check out:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010823.html

Enjoy,

Tim

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 1:04pm

Anyway, in relation to the SDSL that was mentioned at the meeting, check out:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010823.html

This article has already been discussed in another thread "Be your own DSL provider".
You may be interested.

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 1:37pm

Originally posted by Nuno:
Anyway, in relation to the SDSL that was mentioned at the meeting, check out:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20010823.html

Is it just me, or am I seeing double?

Bard · 30-08-2001 4:04pm

Originally posted by timod:
Is it just me, or am I seeing double?

I think Nuno was just trying to quote you there timod, (without using the UBB Code for quoting) - and was referring you to another thread.

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

Notes from Seminar

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