Congrats on the seminar

LegacyUser · 29-08-2001 10:37pm #1

Was really professionally done, everything ran smoothly from where I was sitting and the committee did a great job (and a good attendance). Here's some random opinions from my admittedly caustic anti-eircom angle (I'm not nitpicking they really are just random thoughts

)

Eircom speakers: I used to believe that they held the position they did because it made them maximise their monopoly profits. Now I believe that they also simply just "don't get it". Loved one exchange after the Eircom rep got on his high horse (paraphrasing) "We provided £9m worth of free computers to schools" "Then why do you provide only 2 hours free calls?". Found the Eircom speaker intensely patronising, and was so desperate for statistics came up with silly comments about being second only to Finland in public access terminal numbers (like who cares). Refused to discuss specifics, we could have done with someone there who was willing to discuss.

ODTR: Unimpressed. Etain Doyle was going around in circles when Martin pressed her on "when is too slow". Gave a speech which was "yeah we think flat rate and broadband is a great idea too" and offered no solutions. Wasn't tackled about the high altitude broadband access flying pigs which is my fault <grin>

Mary O'Rourke: Always thought she was a great politician still hold that opinion. Speech was very inspiring and said very little of substance. Hopefully once the overhang of Eircom shareholders are bought out she can move on with doing the necessary to end the monopoly.

Derek (David?) Kickham: I felt like he really wanted to have a go but was trying to be diplomatic. Speech was a bit waffly, he should have led with the last few slides and he'd have been cheered off the stage :P

Martin's speech: Great stuff, got a huge applause. I noticed that Martin used the first person nearly always, except when talking to the Eircom speakers "let's see what Eircom have to say". Not deliberate I'm sure but it was interesting (to me

) Comeback to Mary O'Rourke on the 'star attraction' comment was superb.

Niall ? : I don't think civil servants are used to seeing those of us who pay their wages openly discussing their actions on a public forum. His closing comments about not using pseudonyms were trite. I don't think we should allow the DPE to pawn off every Telecoms related question by referring us to the ODTR, it's their responsibility at the end of the day.

Crowd in general: I thought we were very well behaved under sometimes 'trying' responses. There was only one occasion when it looked like getting rowdy - "that's a loaded question" says Pat Galvin to a perfectly reasonable question nearly touched off the simmering resentment that you could feel. The Q&A didn't really warm up until Tom Murphy told Eircom were to go, sadly that debate was too late in the day.

Elana: Someone let her go have her baby ffs

But as I say, great job.

LegacyUser · 29-08-2001 11:06pm

Thanks for the support :-). I'd say more, but I'm going to type up my notes, post them on here and the newsgroup and io-announce, create a press release and then crash into bed.

And I didn't think I was showing *that* much! :-)

E

LegacyUser · 29-08-2001 11:45pm

First class event. There are lots of data to process, and some new avenues to consider.

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:04am

Hopefully some of the audio can be uploaded quickly. I'd like to have a listen to that before I comment deeply on what went on.
Words @ the moment fail me given the proximity in time. A nights contemplation is needed

Overall Brill event- Glad to have met most of you in the real world.

80p.
SAVE CHIP !!

zenith · 30-08-2001 1:31am

Hi,

Super job: well done! Now the hard work begins, though.

I have to say that I agree with the guy from the department about keeping the comments in this forum reasonable. Not, of course, that this forum is particularly bad at flaming, just that we'll get more out of everybody involved if we keep it civil. However, he should also understand that the appointment of a regulator does not excuse the department from setting policy and steering where we need to go. It's not enough to claim clean hands.

Derek Kickham said it like it is, and should be praised for that. Respect is due from the SNL people.

Eircom have dug their own hole, and - sadly - could only come up with the weakest excuses for their position.

One monstrous point that was made by Eircom was that they suggested that the reason users did not use the internet more was because the content wasn't there. As Eircom are well aware, content providers have been taking a bath online here for the last number of years because Eircom has not been delivering the punters to them: instead, eircom has been devising strategies to retain them within their own loop, to be picked off with 'advanced services' when they're good and ready. Monstrous, and completely unsupportable from Eircom's POV.

In additon, the director of regulatory affairs from eircom passed a remark to the effect that the reason that eircom were not working on PSTN services was that they were dead tech, and that the market wanted/needed/desired advanced tech, which was what eircom wanted to supply.

As an advanced tech customer, I think it'd have been more honest of eircom to say that capacity problems, poor planning, and an inabilty to plan after the surgeon's cuts have left eircom completely without direction.

If I wanted one thing to come out of the seminar, it'd be for IOffline to concentrate on one thing: get PSTN flat-rate working right: the rest can come later.

yellum · 30-08-2001 2:21am

Originally posted by hmmm:
Found the Eircom speaker intensely patronising, and was so desperate for statistics came up with silly comments about being second only to Finland in public access terminal numbers (like who cares).

Aren't they mostly Esat machines ?

The whole "people are not using the internet because its boring" and then saying how ebusiness in Ireland is thriving, she really was clueless. Indigos own ecommerce "vortal" had to close, and then she says "everythings fine here, nothing to complain about, its great. "

Mary O'Rourke: Always thought she was a great politician still hold that opinion. Speech was very inspiring and said very little of substance.

She was very nice. Funny too. Seemed very approachable, her offer to call in to her in her clinic at home was very gracious.

Derek Kickham: .....Speech was a bit waffly, he should have led with the last few slides and he'd have been cheered off the stage :P

Didn't think he was a great speaker. He had good points but his manner was too relaxed. He should have been a radio DJ, he has the voice for it. Show us some passion Derek, some emotion ! He could really have won the crowd if he edited his talk. His Q&A answers were very good.

And I'd like to thank Esat and SNL for having the testicular fortitude to bring out the SNL service to start with and to keep it going for so long under the circumstances.

Martin's speech: Great stuff, got a huge applause.

Well deserved it was too. The voice of reason, and of sanity. You played a blinder boy.

Niall ? : .....His closing comments about not using pseudonyms were trite.

Some of the comments on this board were childish/moronic and I was actually impressed by what he said as it seems he has been reading this forum and paying attention. Fair play to him. His overall input was good.

Crowd in general:

Very civil and well behaved. Loads of suits there. Loads of Eircom suits (they were the ones that started the applause for the Eircom guy and like sheep some of us followed ). ..I hope they were charged a fortune to get in and were placed way at the back where its hard to hear and see the talkers. Then they should have been promised better seats "very soon now".

Well done to all the organisers and those that put in so much effort. Will there be a sequel ? Would that panel agree to come back in a few months and see whats happened ?

Bard · 30-08-2001 3:47am

I'd like to add that I thought the comments made by Tom Murphy (DeVore of Boards.ie fame!) were excellent and well thought out and only just as inflammatory as they needed to be. It's a pity we were so short on time and that Martin had to cut him short at the time.

Overall, I'd have preferred (as I think Elana might also) if the debate itself, between the "invited guests", DID get a little more 'rowdy' or 'active', tbh... but regardless, I thought it was an excellent event.

Well done to all...

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:30am

yellum

I just found Mary O'R to be bonkers

You are right she is a good speaker and took it as seriously as she could but her turn of phrase is just hilarious.

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:58am

Originally posted by hmmm:
Loved one exchange after the Eircom rep got on his high horse (paraphrasing) "We provided £9m worth of free computers to schools" "Then why do you provide only 2 hours free calls?".

That was me, and the bloke said he invested the 30 million in getting schools online, how schools all ready have phone lines and eircon sure as hell didn't buy any computers for us

I Found the CEO from esat very good, he told it straight and was the only one (except martin) who did. he was a good public speaker.

DeVore all I have to say is class

the guy from limerick, didn't catch the name was great, and the one on the dry pair of wires was excellent because it showed some of us mean business.

I really enjoyed the night,
I know ekehoe spotted me on the way out but did anybody else.

Also one last thing, I know nial from somewhere but I cant place him, did you recognize me

Gavin · 30-08-2001 10:37am

Just to post off topic about that. Our old school got 1 pc and an isdn line from eircom, including the hour free a day thing. Which is great, better than nothing at all. But to be honest, I don't see why eircom are investing in schools at all ? They are an independant business now, not a state owned telco.

As such, I don't think it was quite an appropriate comment for the eircom guy to make, ie eircom should not be seeking approval for spending money ,effectively ,on a charity.

Gav

Kix · 30-08-2001 10:38am

Originally posted by Gladiator:
Also one last thing, I know nial from somewhere but I cant place him, did you recognize me

Yup, he knew that it was you who had asked the schools question. Have a look here: http://www.boards.ie/community/Forum18/HTML/000449.html

I'm surprised that you didn't meet for a chat. I'm sure that you would have got on grand face-to-face.

Wish I'd been able to go. What was the attendance like, btw? I know that was one of time committee's biggest worries pre event. Sounds like you had a good crowd?

K

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 10:51am

Originally posted by Verb:
Just to post off topic about that. Our old school got 1 pc and an isdn line from eircom, including the hour free a day thing. Which is great, better than nothing at all. But to be honest, I don't see why eircom are investing in schools at all ? They are an independant business now, not a state owned telco.
Gav

must have been if you got an isdn line, because i know for a fact that its only 2 hours a month on a 56k were i am. Allso i think we actually did get one pc but it was from Telecom eireann and it was some years ago.

Kix, i said halo to martin and john and that was about it, the attendance was great and it was packed, probably could have gotthen another 15 people in but it was an impressive turnout, except for some reason people were scared to sit right up at the front

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 10:54am

Originally posted by Verb:
Just to post off topic about that. Our old school got 1 pc and an isdn line from eircom, including the hour free a day thing. Which is great, better than nothing at all. But to be honest, I don't see why eircom are investing in schools at all ? They are an independant business now, not a state owned telco.

As such, I don't think it was quite an appropriate comment for the eircom guy to make, ie eircom should not be seeking approval for spending money ,effectively ,on a charity.
Gav

Well, I think they wanted to show that they are pushing the Internet in places. PacBell in California do donate time to schools as well, and they are a public company.

E

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 12:35pm

First up well done.

I think a few eyes were opened, and not just at Eircom.

I wonder did anyone else feel that Mary O'Rourke,had at best a tenious understanding of what was going on?

The regulator Etain Doyle wants to "provide pitches for the players to play on" but perhaps she needs to be the referee aswell!

Derek Kickham of Esat Fusion impressed me. Actually the fact the CEO turned up impressed me. He seems to want to offer FRIACO and DSL to us, so thats a plus in my book.

New Eircom turned up with a set of brass balls! hey told us that 73% of people surveyed in their survey of market opinion do not consider cost to be an issue with internet access!!!
They persented rosy stats to show we are in the top 5 in europe for inter net shopping etc.
They did promise DSL by sept 28, the details due out for 5th sept. This will be initaslly in /dublin only, and probably limited to selected exchanges.

The question and answer session was good, with eircom getting hammered , and the minister allowing someone who has a clue to answer for her (she had 2 go!).

x

"Man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle against the urge to punch ‘em in the face, and for what?! For some pimply little puke to treat you like dirt unless you're on a team. Well I'm better than dirt ... well most kinds of dirt. I mean, not that fancy, store-bought dirt. That stuff’s loaded with nutrients. I …I can't compete with that stuff."
-Moe Szyslak

Bard · 30-08-2001 4:00pm

Originally posted by Kix:
Yup, he knew that it was you who had asked the schools question. Have a look here: http://www.boards.ie/community/Forum18/HTML/000449.html

I'm surprised that you didn't meet for a chat. I'm sure that you would have got on grand face-to-face.

I didn't recognise you actually Gladiator- someone told me later that it was you. There was a guy with curly hair half way back who kept giving me the "evil eye" and I thought it was him

... but when I gave you the microphone to ask your question, the way you were dressed struck me... your waistcoat seemed sort of like an armoured breastplace... like a gladiator's armoured breastplate...

Correct me if I'm just being silly there... but was that intentional?

... and yes- I think I know your face from -somewhere- - can't possibly place it though, - would have been interesting to stop for a drink and a chat with yourself and some others but unfortunately I had to rush off to get to my part-time job as a barman.

Gawd I need to get myself a day job again!

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

dahamsta · 30-08-2001 4:56pm

The regulator Etain Doyle wants to "provide pitches for the players to play on" but perhaps she needs to be the referee aswell!

But you see Etain Doyle is the referee, and I would presume that's what she was alluding to. And it's a good metaphor when you consider the position she's taking - she's basically told everyone several times of late that she won't step in until she's asked. Which of course suggests to me and others that she can't step in until she's asked, because she's hampered by the "toothlessness" we all talk about. That may not be true, but that's what we're thinking, that's what we're forced to think, because we don't know any better.

And I think that this is one of the problems we're facing. Everyone, with the obvious exception of Eircom, seems to be agreed that the process is too slow, that we need to speed it up and get things going. But the constant use of careful, some might say deceptive, language is quite obviously making things worse. It's not just slowing the process down, it genuinely is making things worse. I realise that there is, there has to be, politics involved, but isn't it true that quite often political problems are resolved with plain speaking and straight talk?

But let's bow to the politicians for a minute, let's take Etain Doyle's metaphor and extend it:

Eircom and Esat are on a pitch, playing a game, let's say football. We'll forget about the other teams for the moment, because they've been relegated this year, but there's a chance that they'll come back next year when the league levels out. So we've got Esat playing Eircom in the last game of the season, the decider. Both teams are strong, although Esat are already at a disadvantage, because they're playing into the wind. The Esat team seem to be clever, although they do have a nasty habit of throwing two fingers at one section of the stand every now and then, which doesn't endear them to the crowd at all.

The Eircom team look a bit thick at first glance, like a nightclub bouncers first eleven, but you can tell they have a few tricks up their sleeve. Their managers and owners in particular wear expensive shiny suits and look like they belong in the mob. (There's serious rumours of a protection racket, but of course that's off the pitch so we won't go into it[1]). What's worrying though, is that all of the players on the Eircom team have their own footballs, and Esat can't take possession because the footballs are sewn to the Eircom players boots.

The referee, Etain Doyle, looks stunning in her black uniform, with a sickle draped alluringly over one shoulder, which she uses as a replacement for the red cards she lost to NTL and Chorus in a game of five card draw several years before. However she never actually uses it, and in fact in the seemingly endless time the game has been going on, she's amazingly only shown three or four yellow cards to Eircom, despite the many vicious off-the-ball tackles in that time. Esat have of course never been threatened with any cards, because they're too wimpy to tackle Eircom. Every now and then one of them jogs towards an Eircom player, but as soon as it looks like he's going to try and take possession, he sprints in the opposite direction and cowers behind the keeper, Andrew Conlan-Trant.

What's most surprising though, is that despite the fact the game has been going on for some considerable time, the crowd have been almost completely silent for the whole duration. But they're steadfast, they're hardcore fans who have watched from the sidelines the whole time, muttering between themselves about the embarassing lack of action, wondering if anything is ever going to happen. Recently, however, the crowd has begun to grow. There's a small group gathering behind the Eircom goal, and they're starting to make some noise. They're not particularly supporting either team, and there's a lot of nastiness being thrown in the ref's direction, but they are shouting for some action in the game. It also seems pretty clear that they would fall in behind Esat in a big way if the team would just start playing to win.

The most worrying thing of all though, is that at no stage in the game has one of the managers on the sideline stepped up to the referee or the owner of the ground and complained about anything. Not the fact that the game is running seriously over time, not that the spectators might be getting hungry, not that the cost at the gate could explain the small crowd, nothing. Not a whimper, not a sausage. And because of that, the crowd are beginning to think the game is fixed. But they can't go away, because there's nothing on the telly...

The game has been going on for two years. It's a nil-all draw, and it doesn't look like ending anytime soon.

You see, it's all a big joke. I'm the funny guy, I'm hilarious. But I'm all talk and no action, I sit here and type out my rants and complain and whinge and moan. I don't go to the meetings I'm so keen on trying to help organise, I don't respond to the Consultation Papers released by the ODTR. But I have a reason, and ironically enough, that reason is the problem we're all talking about. I don't have time to go up to Dublin on a Wednesday to talk to you, much as I'd like to. I don't have time to write out my response to your papers. I'm lucky I have the time to post my commentary here.

And the reason I don't have that time is because I have a serious telecommunications problem. I'm trying to run a business and educate myself using the best tool I know available, the Internet, and I literally can't spend as much time as I want on it. My phone bills are ludicrous, and are seriously cutting into my bank account. My workload is far heavier than it should be. My business and my personal life as a consumer are adversely affected by this "joke", by all this double-speak.

Do you get my point Etain? At times it might seem like a big joke to many of us, but it's beginning to wear thin. It's just not funny anymore. The Irish Internet industry is quite literally the laughing stock of Europe, and that makes you a laughing stock. I'm not sure whether that's your fault, but it doesn't matter, because either way, people think of you and your department as "toothless", and Ireland as about as connected as Antartica. People from Northern Ireland come on here and laugh at us - not in a nasty way, but they're laughing nonetheless - and I find that almost ridiculous, because they actually think that their Internet industry is bad.

In your speech on Wednesday, you seem to be suggesting that you want, maybe even need our support. And to be honest, I find that mildly insulting, because in my head I think "Why should I? It's your job, why don't you sort it out like you're supposed to?". But I realise that's not constructive, and it's not going to help matters. But you're only suggesting it, and that's not good enough. We can all use metaphor, and simile, and suggestion, but we're sick of it, we're honestly sick to death of it. Please, stop it, stop it now. Speak English to us, tell us the facts. Tell us what's wrong, so we can try and help to fix it. Believe me, it's far more important to us as a group than it is to you.

Regards,
adam

[1] New Series on RTE next year: The Eircoms, featuring James Gandolfini (Tony Soprano) as Ray MacSharry, the head of the Irish family; and Tony Sirico (Paulie "Walnuts" Gaultieri) as his head capo, Alfie Kane.

[This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 30-08-2001).]

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 6:38pm

Whew!

Sounds like I really missed something....
I already had my ticket, but then I could not take any time off at work due to important deadlines that need to be met

I just got some minutes here at work to go through the most important comments.

Sounds like the event was very professional and informative.
Maybe those dozzy heads at Eircom have at long last realized that the IOFFL people are a potent partner and not just some freaks that want to leech warez and porn from the net.

Congrats to everybody involved (especially the people who organized and ran the whole seminar).

And please keep the people that were not able to attend posted on the things that happened....

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 8:26pm

Originally posted by dahamsta:
let's take Etain Doyle's metaphor and extend it:

Eircom and Esat are on a pitch...<snip>...It's a nil-all draw, and it doesn't look like ending anytime soon.

Brilliant summary Adam!

Only thing you missed is that 'crowd behind Eircom's goal' are now starting to make so much noise that people outside are beginning to notice and ask what's going on. Also, politicians just love a crowd so if it continues to grow, maybe some of them will see it as a vote catching opportunity.

Martin

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:11pm

Actually Adam the metaphor used by Etain reminded of an incident that happened last year when I was playing football in UCD.

Yep the players are on the pitch and the whole thing is set to go...
Etain's the Ref, Esat & the OLS's are the oppo and €ircom are ready to kick off.

Whistle Blows.
1st Min...Shocking tackle from €ircom
Etain(Ref) sends them off.
So €ircom say its my ball & I'm going home!!

Well that really happenned in a match I played in & we were fooked and now that I think about it, It is happenning in this whole debacle as well

They own the lines & they're givin it the "Dog in the Manger" Tactics. SHOCKING

What can we do though?
Pat Galvin dismissed the intevention of the state into the matter by stating [para]....
"We're already the most deregulated market in the EU... so What do you want to re-regulate the market???"

Maybe thats the only solution. Especially if ppl like Martin are ever going to see Broadband.

80p.
SAVE CHIP !!

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:17pm

BTW Gladiator....
Was that waistcoat a Flak Jacket just in case things got outta hand w/ any of the Cmtee. or Panel??

No seriously good point re: Schools.
I said it to Niall after the event if they give you 2 hours free, depending on the size of your school that would work out as a few seconds free for each pupil. Pretty shocking I must agree!

Dont worry though,
I'm sure you'd fit in a few posts in that 20 secs

80p.
SAVE CHIP !!

LegacyUser · 30-08-2001 9:54pm

hmm no i didnt come dressed as a gladiator, it was a leather waistcoat i quiet liked, up to now that is...

it was important to give to panel the impression i may or may not kill them should they not answer the questions, personal i dont really mind, ive allways had my own style.

id like to note that the guy didnt have a response or *rebuttal* to it, probably didnt expect that age range.

but yea bard i know you from somewere, id laugh if we went to the same school, no actually id probably cry, i might know you from your bar work but its unlikely as i dont drink.

it seems i was easy to spot (just like i said i would) even in real life

sceptre · 30-08-2001 10:46pm

Originally posted by hmmm:
Found the Eircom speaker intensely patronising, and was so desperate for statistics came up with silly comments about being second only to Finland in public access terminal

She is right on that point of course. But, here's why:

College and school terminals: don't count, they're not public access terminals.

Libraries: not doing too bad here (especially in some parts of Dublin). Limerick has about ten library terminals, don't know about Cork (in any case Eircom doesn't get much if any credit for the library access).

So why is the figure so high?
Esat knocked 9000 terminals into pubs, cafes, shops and small post offices. I've no idea how they can make any money out of it as I've only ever seen one person at one (my brother in our local in Mallow when he was too lazy to walk down the hill to check his mail)

Now, I'm far from an Esat defender or advocate but I thought that it was really funny when Eircom brought it up as something they had enabled.

Originally posted by Gladiator:
the guy from limerick, didn't catch the name was great,

Compliment accepted if you're talking about me, shuffles sheepishly away if you're not
(hehe - we know who you are now)

Good summary Adam - as always your thoughts are not only welcome but needed.

Seamus

Kix · 31-08-2001 10:31am

Adam, that was quite an accomplished little skit. I was laughing myself silly till you hit your point home. I think that Niall should think about putting that up on the site, to be honest - it's extremely effective.

K

P.S. You are a grumpy ******* and personally, I love you for it.

Bard · 31-08-2001 10:48am

Originally posted by Gladiator:
hmm no i didnt come dressed as a gladiator, it was a leather waistcoat i quiet liked, up to now that is...

It was a very nice waistcoat

it was important to give to panel the impression i may or may not kill them should they not answer the questions

err... don't think so!

I can't quite imagine it...

Martin: "Etain, I'll direct this question at you-... and remember, - if you don't answer, the bloke in the front row wearing the natty waistcoat is going to kill you."

heh

id like to note that the guy didnt have a response or *rebuttal* to it, probably didnt expect that age range.

In his defence, he was talking about primary schools and you were talking about secondary schools so he probably wasn't *quite* prepared for your question...

Still, - I thought Pat Galvin was a little over-arrogant (the "loaded question" comment was a bit much to say the least), although he was just defending his company - which is fair enough.

but yea bard i know you from somewere, id laugh if we went to the same school, no actually id probably cry, i might know you from your bar work but its unlikely as i dont drink.

I'd say it's unlikely to be either, to be honest... I left secondary school about 6 years ago, and I haven't been doing bar work very long. Still - you did look eerily familiar somehow!

Cheers again,...

Bard

'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'

Kix · 31-08-2001 11:29am

Originally posted by Bard:
I'd say it's unlikely to be either, to be honest... I left secondary school about 6 years ago, and I haven't been doing bar work very long. Still - you did look eerily familiar somehow!

God, it'd be great if they turned out to be cousins. Very, I dunno... Days of Our Lives?

K

LegacyUser · 31-08-2001 11:40am

"In his defence, he was talking about primary schools and you were talking about secondary schools so he probably wasn't *quite* prepared for your question..."
then he should have said that, he said every school in ireland, and lets not pretend that was a hand out, that 30 mil (if they even invested that) should make them huge profits as nearly all school internet time will be day time.

anyway yea now i scared, ill probably walk out of my local super market and he will be there.
Kix thats not even funny, for all i know he could be an inlaw, best not to think about these things i say

Congrats on the seminar

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