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Post Seminar Thoughts
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30-08-2001 9:31pm#1These are just a few general thoughts on seminar yesterday and comments on some of the points that have been made in other threads.
I should point out that this is 'my' reply, we haven't had a chance yet to talk together as a committee and come to a collective view.
What did we achieve ?
IMO - a hell of a lot! OK, we didn't get the answers we wanted, but should we have really expected to?
The most important thing we achieved was the impact we made as an organisation.
You wouldn't believe the amount of hard work it took to get Eircom onto that panel - just 6 hours before the seminar, they were threatening to withdraw because of the tone of some of the comments that were being made on this forum.
Someone told me I 'played a blinder' - IMO we all played a blinder! We have let everyone see that we are a responsible group who know what they are talking about and can present their case in a professional and articulate manner.
The way in which the whole seminar was presented and conducted, the well argued contributions from people in the audience and the good mannered way in which people treated Eircom depite their total rejection of what they (Eircom) were saying was superb.
Mary O'Rourke/Dept of Public Enterprise
At the end of the day, I think it will be the politicians who sort this mess out.
Apart from her role as Minister, Mary O'Rourke is an extremely influential politician in her own right. If she hadn't 'taken a shine' to us early on, does anyone really think we would have been able to pull off yesterday's seminar?
Some people have expressed concern about her lack of technical knowledge. She doesn't need the technical knowledge - her job is to lay down the policies. The people who provide the technical input into the policy making are her staff in Dept. of Public Enterprise - Niall O'Donnochu was probably one of the least known people there but potentially one of the most important. Great to see him on the platform.
ODTR
I am still finding it hard to figure out what the problem is with ODTR. They make all the right noises but seem to achieve very little in practice. I think that they lack real teeth but don't want to admit to that in public. One question we didn't get onto is "What changes should be made in the forthcoming review of the legislation relating to ODTR?" This is an area, IMO, that we need to get into in the weeks ahead. We have to first educate ourselves, then educate the politicians.
Esat
Hard to find much fault with the things Derek Kickham said. They did at least bring SNL to the market. I know people are still hurting about the whole cut-off thing and believe me, we tell this to them at every opportunity we get - our standard message to them is that "we understand why you did what you did, what we find hard to forgive is how you did it."
I think we should give Esat credit for how they approached the thing yesterday. Like Eircom, they had reservations about the audience, particularly in regard to the ongoing resentment about the Esat 2000, but unlike Eircom, they showed no hesitation in coming and did not try to influence the way in which the seminar was held.
Some of us may not like Esat as an organisation, but let's not forget that they share our objectives.
Eircom
I really don't know what to make of Eircom. The whole way they approached the seminar - the selection of a marketing person for the panel, the material that she presented - shows that their main purpose was 'damage limitation' rather than seizing the opportunity to have a constructive debate with users.
The thing that worries me most about their presentation is that I am starting to think that Eircom really believe their own propoganda. To describe a situation where we are 10th highest cost in OECD report as a positive statistic - "there are 9 countries worse than us" - beggars belief!
(I'd like to point out that none of this is meant to crticise Soula Evans personally, I just think she was the one that 'drew the short straw' for yesterday)
It is obvious that Eircom are not going to give up their 'cash cows' without a long, bitter struggle.
Where do we go now
I don't have any ready made answers to this. The profile we have gained and the interest we have generated in the media means that we have the potential to be a very powerful lobby group.
We have met all the key players and we have heard them argue out their positions.
In my opinion, we have to get more 'political' now, start pushing the government harder.
The first step in this is to widen out our stated objectives, let's be more precise on eaxctly what we want and how we want it done.
One area that I think we could use to our advantage is the low level of understanding of the internet among politicians generally - I have some specific ideas on this that I want to develop and will post here soon
Martin
[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 30-08-2001).]0
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Martin , I'm still trying to get my thoughts together on the whole thing.
But I didn't know you(David Long as well??) actually went to Mary's House in Athlone.
What a master stroke.
Have you been reading "Organisational Behaviour" by Buchannan & Huczynski ??
The golden rule...
If you want to get something out of the boss, Dont invite them into your office.
But Do... Show up unexpected on their patch.
Imagine the effect a letter or phone call would have had in comparison !!
BTW I think she fancies you
80p.
SAVE CHIP !!0 -
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
as i said before, we didnt get the answers wanted, but that wasnt what most people wanted really, they just wanted the Bull**** to stop and for someone to give a straight answer, maybe we only got afew but its allot more then we have been getting.
would you rather be told you will have adsl in month (eircom rep) and then not have it, or be told listen ill give it to you straight you wont have it by the end of the year you might not even have it with a years time (esat ceo) this man cut me off no limits he said he had plains for the rest of the 18000 to and i left the seminar with a great level of respect for him because he should abite to us.
when we cut the bs we will finaly get something done</font>
The thing is, Eircom are still giving us the marketing bulls**t anyway. At least Kickham, as much as I hate the guy, was straight with everybody and told them the sad facts, unlike Eircom which still continued to bulls**t everybody.
As infomat and sceptre said, it's scary to think that Eircom seem to really believe in what they were saying. It's the Soviet Union all over again, as someone said on another post! "We are the greatest country in the world, why are you complaining? There is lots of food for everybody, even if you have to queue for it!" As I said, scary!
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Hi Martin,
Before I strip your comments down to bare bones and pick them apart, one by one (nah, just kidding), I'd like to say thanks very much for putting so much time and effort into this. And thanks to everyone else involved too, your work is much appreciated. I would have killed to be there, but 'twas not to be. Next time, next time... (Where have you heard that before?)
You wouldn't believe the amount of hard work it took to get Eircom onto that panel - just 6 hours before the seminar, they were threatening to withdraw because of the tone of some of the comments that were being made on this forum.
Typical Eircom, trying to worm their way out of it. I think the problem here is that Eircom view this forum as one of their type of forums, where everyone is polite and talks horsefeathers, and nothing actually gets said. There's emotion on this forum, and rightly so too in my opinion. And Eircom should never forget that for the most part, they cause that emotion. Eircom should grow up and realise that the threats made against them - and everyone else for that matter - are simply people venting. I dunno, sometimes the whole organisation comes across as a spoilt child, unwilling to share. I wish they'd open a window and look out to the real world, and see the terrible damage they're doing, not just to people, but to our economy.
I am still finding it hard to figure out what the problem is with ODTR. They make all the right noises but seem to achieve very little in practice. I think that they lack real teeth but don't want to admit to that in public. One question we didn't get onto is "What changes should be made in the forthcoming review of the legislation relating to ODTR?" This is an area, IMO, that we need to get into in the weeks ahead. We have to first educate ourselves, then educate the politicians.
I agree, and said as much in another thread. I'd love to just get them all in a room, maybe buy 'em a drink, and get the lowdown. I wish they'd just speak up and tell us, and I'm worried that if they don't, people are just going to think worse and worse of them. It really is starting to look like a huge conspiracy at this stage.
Some of us may not like Esat as an organisation, but let's not forget that they share our objectives.
To be honest, I don't really believe that Martin. Esat is a large, powerful company with good PR skills (most of the time) and plenty of money to back them up, but they've never utilised those resources. All they had/have to do is inform the public. Take out an ad in the nationals, explain the situation. I could never understand why they didn't do that, it'd be the first thing I'd do. The only possible excuse is contracts, and if they signed NDA contracts on this matter, more fool them. I don't trust them. They're going to have to win my trust back.
The thing that worries me most about their presentation is that I am starting to think that Eircom really believe their own propoganda.
Yeah, I've thought that for a while. I can actually feel some of them reading this and thinking to themselves "we're the losers here, we're the downtrodden party" sob sob. It never seems to click with them that it's going to happen eventually whether they like it or not, and the more they pi55 off consumers and small businesses, the less likely they're going to be able to retain that business. But they continue to act like Microsoft's younger, thicker brother, battling to "save" themselves, when the only thing they need saving from is themselves. I dunno, I just feel sorry for them most of the time. They're a sad, useless bunch of people. I mean, think about it, they own the local loop, and yet their share price is embarassing. That's pathetic.
(I'd like to point out that none of this is meant to crticise Soula Evans personally, I just think she was the one that 'drew the short straw' for yesterday)
I have to say that I felt sorry for her. She was obviously sacrificed.
One area that I think we could use to our advantage is the low level of understanding of the internet among politicians generally - I have some specific ideas on this that I want to develop and will post here soon
Anything I can do to help (as long as it doesn't mean travelling outside Munster obviously) don't be afraid to ask. I'm going to corner Simon Coveney meself next time I get a minute.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by aidan_dunne:
I'd just like to know how you feel personally, that's all, because I, as do a lot of others here I'm sure, feel sorry for you that all your effort didn't reap the rewards you may have hoped it did.</font>
Short answer to your question is "absolutely delighted!" - the seminar reaped exactly the rewards I hoped for
As the person who originally came up with the idea and cajoled the participants into it, I never expected to get real answers at yesterday's seminar.
The 'personal' objectives that I had for the seminar were:-
*To get the key players in Internet access arguing the issues in public rather than behind closed doors (I know there wasn't any 'direct' argument between Eircom and Esat but I think everyone clearly saw where the issues lie
)
*To expose the key players to our user base and let them see the calibre of people they are dealing with. So far these people had only met David, Elana and myself (except for Justin who attended original MO'R meeting) and I wanted them to see that we weren't just a 'gang of three'. The age range of members and quality of contributions yesterday could not have been better.
*To show the key users that we are going about our business in a professional manner and won't be fobbed off with PR crap. That's why the location, the whole set up, the sound engineering, etc. were so important.
*To create a stir in the media beyond the 'technical' sections. OK, we didn't get TV there but the "five to six" slot on RTE Radio 1 is no mean achievement.
*To establish IrelandOffline as the representative body for internet users in Ireland.
*To let our members see at first hand some of the waffle that we have to put up with at our meetings with these people so that they will be more patient with us when we don't come back with immediate answers
The only downside of these 'personal' objectives was that we had to hype the seminar as much as possible. There was always a danger that we would create an over-expectation among members. I am sorry that you and some other people have come away disappointed, please just be patient , we will get there.
I have been in management for over 30 years with most of that time spent in various forms of Project management. Please believe me that, allowing for the fact that we are only in existence for 3 months - and that period embraced the holiday season when people are hard to get hold of, - our achievements to date are incredible and would be the envy of many firms spending a lot of money on PR and lobbying of one form or another.
I have believed from the start that there is a role for IrelandOffline but the first task was to establish a credible profile.
Yesterday was a major milestone, IMO. We have a long way to go yet but the seminar was the 'final block in the foundation' if you know what I mean
Think about it this way - three months ago if I had picked up the phone to Derek Kickham, Etain Doyle, Soula Evans or Pat Galvin - do you think I would have got anywhere near them? If I phone any of them tomorrow I somehow don't think I will get fobbed off by a secretary
Martin
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
I'm getting frustrated. This boards forum is good, but it's just not focussed enough. We have to distil from all of it the individual issues that are obviously wrong and publish them once and for all on the site for everyone to see and understand</font>
Agreed. I'll volunteer to maintain a technical FAQ, assuming that people think it would be useful, and will actively contribute (2 big assumptions )
Seriously, if I have to read another question about overbooking, DSL speeds, 'all new' announcements of Powernet, Satellite speeds, I'm gonna scream (Although I admit I don't help by contributing to those threads - I'm just a sucker for punishment...)
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Excellent.. need Niall to come in on this too..
Umm.. can be try and pick some obvious questions from the point of view of the media/public..
e.g. "This FRIACO.. is it or isn't it economically viable?"
e.g. "What does an ADSL service really cost?"
e.g. "Is Ireland too small a market to have proper internet access?"
etc.. more suggestions please
(hehe.. reminds me of that shoe-shine guy in the Police Squad tv series )
[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 31-08-2001).]0 -
David, Justin Mason and myself<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 80project.com:
But I didn't know you(David Long as well??) actually went to Mary's House in Athlone.</font>
Wish i could claim credit for it but I can't !<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What a master stroke..</font>
We had sent out a letter to our members suggesting political lobbying. One member came back and said he knew Mary O'Rourke personally and would set up the meeting for us. That member wishes to remain anonymous but IMO his action was the most important single thing that has happened to us so far, I just knew in my gut when we came away from Athlone that we were on a winner.
Handsome guy like me with good line of Donegal 'patter' - how could she possibly resist<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">BTW I think she fancies you
</font>
LOL
Martin
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Great work Aidan and Hudson, we definitely need something like this,
Just be a bit patient, tho' with stuff on this forum over next few days. Lot of things raised by the seminar, peole want to express their feelings, lot of people who didn't get to it will be reading newspaper reports, listening to radio and downloads, it's inevitable that there will be lot of disjointed posting
That's not to say that you should delay on what you're doing - there's a lot of work to be done on this and the quicker you get on with it the better.
Thx
Martin
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Martin you played a blinder
I cant understand anyone questioning what was achieved yesterday.
My God, I mean, they didnt have to be there. You got all the major players in the same room with each other and with a crowd they KNEW were hostile.
What will have shocked them tho is the level of organisation and the number of suits in the audience who were obviously angry with them.
Not only that but the Minister saw it too and generally came away smelling of roses, which she'll like!
The ball is rolling, you have the communications and organisational skill to make a point. We're all rooting for you , do us as proud going forward as you did at the seminar.
Martin is right. The politicians hold the key.
But take this one thing away from the meeting. In public, Eircom committed to rolling out adsl *this month*. Now, they can go back on it, of course, but they said it, in front of that panel and that audience. They'll look incompetant and deceitful if they dont.
They played it as their trump card, ok, hard to argue with it... but next time... they wont be able to.
I was really impressed with the event and its running. I think the panel looked a bit uncomfortable because it looked like Questions and Answers and they were in the hot seats.
I have constructive suggestions for the next one but so far so good guys. Keep on fighting for us Obi-wan-abu, you are our only hope
DeV.
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Although i am very grateful for Ireland Offlines's efforts to improve the situation in Ireland, its pretty much a waste of time.
Eircom will carry out wholesale access for other Telco's, LLU and rollout of Broadband in their own time.
i wish it could be different, but it aint.
Ashley Lyn
Ashley Lyn Cafagna0 -
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
Although i am very grateful for Ireland Offlines's efforts to improve the situation in Ireland, its pretty much a waste of time.
Eircom will carry out wholesale access for other Telco's, LLU and rollout of Broadband in their own time.
i wish it could be different, but it aint.
</font>
Eircon's on the back foot now with UTV just niggling to get in there they will soon crack under the pressure don't give up hope not now...not by a long shot.
Farls
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
And yet at the same time, they would not be pressed on rollout timescales for this DSL that they are so keen on. All that was said was that they would implement DSL when and where they saw fit.
</font>
Soula Evans said that DSL would be available in Dublin at the end of September and would be implemented throughout the rest of the country over the following 2-3 years. She indicated also that it was eircom's policy that fast Internet access should be available to everybody, everywhere in Ireland.
What a quotable woman
Bard
'First motorbike in the bible ???? ---- a Triumph --- 'Yea verily Moses struck down the ammmanites and all the land heard the roar of his triumph !!!'0 -
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