Seminar Q&A - Second Guessing

LegacyUser

The more you think about it though, you would think the government should be taking the heat for the problems. What have their responses been like to date? There's been a lot of positive noises and interest.. but any substance? Should we be expecting more?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hudson806:
Yep. In fact, so can ADSL services - the technologies are basically identical apart from one or two minor tweaks to boost the upstream capacity.

The point, though, is that MPLS switched networks are most definitely a 'premium' product - cutting edge, very expensive to build and operate, and hence expensive to access. If you are paying that much to access the network, you might as well do it over something a little more ambitious than a DSL hookup..

pariel - USB Adaptor
</font>

His concern is that he lives too far away from the exchange, not that he doesn't have a USB port... Besides, I'm not sure that a 'pariel' - USB adapter would do the trick - as pariel ports don't provide power (I think)

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

yea i forgot about that, but there must be away to do it because ive seen them on sale, maybe the unit its self has a plug

LegacyUser

so glad, would i be able to get adsl even though i live around 5/6 km away from my exchange by using this usb adapter you are talking about ?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ando:
so glad, would i be able to get adsl even though i live around 5/6 km away from my exchange by using this usb adapter you are talking about ?</font>

Yeah - it comes with a 4.5km extension cable.

More seriously, Ando, you can forget about getting ADSL any time soon - the service Eircom are trialling appears to be bog-standard ADSL, not the RADSL variation that you need.

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

Does anyone know what sort of consideration was given to the creating of a private local-loop monopoly at the time of the Eircom sell-off? I'll do some digging if I can find the time..

LegacyUser

If i asked Eircom to install a new phone line, would it be possable they would connect me to a different exchange, cause I'm only 2/3km away from coolock exchange ?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting desperate for dsl !!!

LegacyUser

Maybe it's possible. Maybe you'll get a nice engineer who'll do some fiddling. But I find more often than not people I deal with in Eircom are pretty unhelpful when you try to talk about something technical, and either act dumb, treat you like you're from Mars or feed disinformation. Some doc recently mentioned that 40% of all traffic on the voice network was internet access (ODTR I think). With that sort of pressure on capacity, you'd think something like DSL would be a lot cheaper to deploy rather than costly expansion of the switched circuit network.


[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ando:
If i asked Eircom to install a new phone line, would it be possable they would connect me to a different exchange, cause I'm only 2/3km away from coolock exchange ?

Sorry for all the questions, just getting desperate for dsl !!! </font>

I don't know but a few years ago I asked them to switch me to a different exchange and they did but then it was possible to talk directly to engineering.

LegacyUser

ok, thanks for the help lads, when dsl is launched (whenever that is) I'll try get an engineer to connect me to the coolock exchange ! but I'm still on the limit 2/3KM away ..... Bit iffy !

LegacyUser

I wonder will the Eircom ADSL price be released before the seminar. It's gonna have an impact on the seminar one way or the other.

If it is the 100+ wholesale as the rumour mill is currently suggesting, that pretty much puts paid to DSL for us lot for some time.. and I think Eircom already have kicked FRIACO into touch.

Anyone got any anti-depressants to spare?

LegacyUser

The key, as I see it, lies in the vigorous enforcement of EU law with regard to LLU together with substantial grants for implementation of xDSL for OLOs and (lets not be discriminatory) Eircom. Special attention should be given to innovative longer range ADSL as well as provisioning rural exchanges.

I think the government may view financial support in a favourable way provided it leads to results. So far a lot of subsidy has gone to already monopolistic telcos and cable companies with predictable results. In my opinion, money needs to be spent to open the markets up rather than pump money into companies who already have total market share.

[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
So far a lot of subsidy has gone to already monopolistic telcos and cable companies with predictable results</font>

That's not good.. have you any examples?

I agree.. I think that we're just gonna have to put more emphasis on why widespread internet use by the population is required, and hope our (elected) govt will come up with something like the French situation or whatever.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
That's not good.. have you any examples?</font>

Unfortunately, I can't find any examples and so I am withdrawing my statement about money being pumped into telcos and cable companies.

I was pretty sure that chorus had received grant money but I can't find any reference to it. I was also convinced that money was available to NTL upon completion of its upgrade. Can't find any links at this time.

So I have to withdraw the statement for the moment.

LegacyUser

Another corner questions seem to end up at is 'well, LLU is here so everyone's free to come in and provide their own service'. We gotta wonder how realistic a proposition LLU is for a third party, quite apart from the price. In the states there has been a lot of complaints from ISPs providing DSL that the incumbent operator has been pushing their own DSL service unfairly against them.

It's something that would put me off going the whole hog and renting the loops / exchange space / etc. You move in cos there's a market that Eircom isn't addressing. And then all of a sudden you find yourself competing with Eircom/ eircom.net's residential DSL service. And they've already got huge staff/engineering resource in place nationwide. In the US there's been reports of 3rd party 'tagged' (unbundled) lines at exchanges 'accidentally' being interfered with, leading to customer downtime/dissatisfaction.. and then lo-and-behold the incumbent's sales rep on the phone offering their DSL service 'from the professionals' etc etc..

For example: http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2486629,00.html



[This message has been edited by Fergus (edited 20-08-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
That's not good.. have you any examples?
</font>

Eircom laid circa 40 miles of roadside pipe in West Sligo. I suspect, but haven't the proof, that it was subsidised.

Also seem to remember that Eircom pulled out of a number of Government contracts to lay fibre around the time of the Eircell sale.
Something was said about re-evaluating their stategic plans IIRC.

LegacyUser

Esat mentioned they had submitted an SOR to Eircom.. do we actually know what this was for? Was it FRIACO? Do I remember Esat complaining recently about engineer escort/supervision charges?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
Unfortunately, I can't find any examples </font>

"Telecommunications company Chorus was today, 16th January 2001, awarded €21.5 million structural funds by the Minister for Public Enterprise, Mary O'Rourke, TD, following a competitive tender process. Chorus will apply this funding as part of a €72.7 million investment, developing 3 broadband projects in the South East, Border Midland West (BMW) and Kerry regions. The net Chorus contribution will be €51.2 million."

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?

From: http://www.chorus.ie/press_releases.php3?prid=1

LegacyUser

"While the cost of Internet Access has been reduced significantly, we are still some way from Flat Rate Access. The provision of Flat Rate Access should be a priority in order to encourage use of the web by both business and the consumer."

Ivor Callely, TD
Chairman, Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business
5, May 1999

http://www.gov.ie/committees-99/c-enterprise/rep-ecommerce/default.htm

LegacyUser

It's clear from searching the governemtn archives that huge amounts of effort and money are being expended on e-Government - putting all the departments online, Revenue returns online, etc.

At the same time, huge money goes into things like Global Crossing and e-Commerce, and getting every business to put itself online...

It seems stupid then that the other half of the equation - the citizens, the consumers (remember us?) - are left to fend for themselves with costly second-rate internet access. Clumsy dial-up access has to be a major detractor from the widespread uptake of the internet. And without true nationwide acceptance, over all socio-economic groups, I think we're going to see things like e-Government and small business e-commerce ventures becoming increasingly difficult to justify.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
It's clear from searching the governemtn archives that huge amounts of effort and money are being expended on e-Government - putting all the departments online, Revenue returns online, etc.

At the same time, huge money goes into things like Global Crossing and e-Commerce, and getting every business to put itself online...
</font>

And yet Ireland is still an expensive country for web hosting. The government must be made to see the futility of subsidising supply in a market with little competition.

LegacyUser

Yup. I do my hosting with tera-byte in Canada. Less than $99 a year. Ireland isn't at the races.

Maybe the Public Accounts Committee is our best hope. Take this excerpt from 29 June 2000, with M. Touhy of the Dept of Dept of Public Enterprise:

"Deputy Ardagh: In relation to unbundling the local loop, will that include the fibre which NTL is putting in around Dublin? Will access to that fibre be allowed to other companies in the legislation proposed?

Mr. Touhy: The legislation is not drafted. We have announced we will have a consultative forum with the industry. That is a huge issue. It was a huge issue in the US and is still very much a live debate there. The cable companies were licensed earlier in the year for digital. Part of the package was that they got an exclusivity for three or four years. The purpose of this was to allow them to invest upfront. The issue on the telecom side is that when one replaces a monopoly, one wants to encourage new operators to come in and one must give them some added advantage. They cannot connect into everybody, so to speak, therefore, one gives them the right to lease a line from Eircom and to connect in at that stage. This could be very positive from Eircom's point of view in that this should make available some of the new advanced technologies such as XTSL or ADSL to the home, which Eircom currently is in the process of providing but has not provided on a widescale."

http://www.gov.ie/committees-00/c-publicaccounts/000629/default.htm

Well, it would seem Eircom don't think it's very positive..

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:

"Deputy Ardagh: In relation to unbundling the local loop, will that include the fibre which NTL is putting in around Dublin? Will access to that fibre be allowed to other companies in the legislation proposed?
</font>

Of course, its worth remembering that Deputy Ardagh is the same gentleman whose sons co-purchased a wireless local loop license.

Wonder how he forgot to suggest that that be unbundled too...

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
The government must be made to see the futility of subsidising supply in a market with little competition.
</font>

Hmmm.. draws me back to that comment by Eircom from the meeting: "The Eircom representatives made a strong case that the debate for availability of Internet access to date has focused almost entirely on the supply side and that more emphasis should be placed on developing the demand side."

Sure that was repremanded a bit, but could anyone involved elaborate on what exactly they were getting at?

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
Hmmm.. draws me back to that comment by Eircom from the meeting: "The Eircom representatives made a strong case that the debate for availability of Internet access to date has focused almost entirely on the supply side and that more emphasis should be placed on developing the demand side."

Sure that was repremanded a bit, but could anyone involved elaborate on what exactly they were getting at?</font>

They're saying that the OLO's, and possibly the government, aren't pushing Internet access on Irish people and businesses. It's a contradiction in terms to some extent in that you can't push people towards new technologies when there aren't any new technologies. Internet growth in Ireland is stemmed by limited availability (we're tied to limited product offerings), poor performance (DACS, overdriven ISPs) and limited education. They were going for the third point, which in my opinion is driven somewhat by the former two.

adam

adam

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dahamsta:
Internet growth in Ireland is stemmed by limited availability (we're tied to limited product offerings), poor performance (DACS, overdriven ISPs) and limited education.</font>

Also perhaps the cost of PCs and so forth.

But really the problem of the limited offerings is huge. It seriously undermines the ability to use internet applications. I think most people in Ireland today wouldn't regard email as a serious form of communication, because most accounts are only checked when somebody bothers to dial-up. Schoolchildren using online resources to study doesn't go down well when it's holding up the phone line and costing by the minute.

There's only so far you can go with the ideals of an internet society, given the sort of access situation that exists in Ireland, and maybe we're at the bottleneck now.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
So far a lot of subsidy has gone to already monopolistic telcos and cable companies with predictable results
</font>

I spose this would count:

"Government-assisted investments in broadband have included:

• the 13 Broadband projects assisted under the Economic Infrastructure and Interreg Operational Programmes 1994-99 (26.5 million euro of public funding leveraging a total investment of nearly 70 million euro in broadband networks in the less-developed regions of Ireland);

• the effective underwriting by Government of the international connectivity project which was provided by Global Crossing following a competitive tender process for the provision of the capacity;

• the support from Government and EU funds for investment in e-commerce and advanced communication infrastructure and services in the regions under the National Development Plan 2000-2006. (A provision of in excess of 200 million euro of Exchequer and ERDF funds, which will leverage private sector investment).

• the recent call for proposals under the National Development Plan, with 77 million euro funding available for Year 2000 alone. There is also a £1 million VSAT call for proposals."


All from this hilarious exposition: http://www.forfas.ie/t4eb/frame.htm

LegacyUser

If the internet is still too much regarded by the general public as an expensive toy, is that the fault of the internet community or the government?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
The more you think about it though, you would think the government should be taking the heat for the problems. What have their responses been like to date? There's been a lot of positive noises and interest.. but any substance? Should we be expecting more?

</font>

The government should never have allowed the national infrastructure to pass into private hands. They should have seperated it from Telecom Eireann when it stopped being a state body. That is the only way that this current mess could have been avoided.
Should we expect more? I hope for more, but am not holding my breath for them to take the initiative on anything. I'll be very interested in seeing what the ODTR has to say at this upcoming conference.

---

You cannot defeat what you do not understand
DarkSide

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fergus:
If the internet is still too much regarded by the general public as an expensive toy, is that the fault of the internet community or the government?</font>

I don't think that the general public look upon the Internet as being an expensive toy. The problem is that in Ireland Internet access is too expensive for most people and there are two fundamental problems with the Internet ... companies expect to be able to make huge profits but have been unable to find the right model (they don't want to provide what people really want they just what makes the most profit) unfortunately for the suppliers of services consumers expect anything connect with the Internet to be free (or as close as possible to free).

The development of the Internet has been ad hoc and usually beyond regulation or control (this has advantages and disadvantages) which makes it very difficult for Governments to plan for infrastructure etc. While the current mess in Ireland is really annoying I do not believe that the Government are totally to blame. We the public in Ireland are also to blame ... we as a nation are reluctant to complain about poor service, being ripped-off etc. Why has it taken until now for an organisation such as Ireland Offline to arise?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DarkSide:
The government should never have allowed the national infrastructure to pass into private hands</font>

Well, maybe it could have worked, but where is the evidence of the benefits of competition? Where is the competition? The demise of SNL is a testament to the failure of telecoms deregulation in this country. Care to mention any other examples?